RIP craft / economy

[Missandei]

Define "huge" prices mate. The prices were already very affordable by anyone with a small margin for profit for crafters. Augments for example had already dropped to 80-85k and were expected to stabilize around there. From those amounts, crafters already make very little money and now that they dropped even more, its just pointless, plain and simple.

I would suggest to you to put your own credits, ingame time and effort where your mouth is and offer free crafted items to all. Cause that is what is happening atm. Crafters are only loosing money, so dont expect any to keep crafting. They killed the market. Again.

 

If you want the game economics to be as close to the reald world one as possible you need to behave like the real world buiseness owners. The key to successful business is to ADAPT. You cant have the constant profit if you dont changing.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Missandei

[NogueiraA]

yea yea, working as intended :rolleyes:

[JonnyRay]

It seems to me that blue/purple material prices are going to fall. Certainly. As a crafter, how is this a bad thing for me?

 

Sure it means that I can't sell unneeded purple mats for 60k per or something. But I think of myself as a crafter, not a miner. I craft because I like to make stuff. The selling of excess mats was a bonus for me.

 

And now, if I want to make some level 40 purple armor mods or enhancements, I won't have to farm low level missions for 3 days to get the stuff I need to make them. I can get the stuff much easier. I'm ok with it.

 

I can see where those who were making most of their money by selling the blue/purple mats on the GTN are hurt by this. As for me, not so much.

 

Also, I haven't checked, but I bet most of the people turning their Jawa Junk into purple mats (that they're going to sell on the GTN) are doing so with the Tier 11 materials. Which means that if I DID want to make money off material gathering, I could still do so at the Tier 5/6/9 level, right?

 

Edit: In fact, if I am recalling correctly, given that the critical success rate changes (somewhat) by the difficulty of the mission verses my skill level, I might even make MORE money by farming the lower level materials as I'll crit more often.

Edited January 15, 2015 by JonnyRay
Additional thought on making money

[varietasplus]

/Signed

Prices have dropped to half on materials and keep dropping, crafted items have already dropped at least 30% and they also are gonna drop even more and the prices had already balanced after 3.0. I stopped running crew skills, I stopped crafting, I am extremelly frustrated and discouraged. Ppl had already turned to buying CC staff to sell and make ingame money, maybe that is all they are aiming for in the end. BW killed crafting all over again. This is pointless... They should at least be honest about it and totaly remove crafting from the game. Let ppl buy gear and vanity items with CC coins aka real money... Its hypocritical to say the least to pretend this is anything more than that...

 

Thank you for saving me the time the write down my very same thoughts.

We are very likely to witness the total collapse of a virtual global economy and it is going to be long remembered in the history of MMOs.

 

This combined with other ingame changes tells much about the future we should expect for this game.

[Ishkur]

Well we are getting used to economy destroying patches

[Glower]

You don't get the point ... crew skills are killed, you can't compete with gathering missions with this crappy slot mashine ... what 6 man crew skill gather weeks you get in hours just clicking the mashine ... thats not really comparable ...

 

Not to mention that lvl 1 char could get artifact mats grade 11 just like that ... that coupled with some other game features opens WIDE gate for abuse and bot exploiting of market ...

 

Anyways why training TH or UT when u just need to click to get anything for almost free ...

 

^this

 

 

Well we are getting used to economy destroying patches

 

I've never seen this before.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Glower

[Khevar]

... it would take crew skill missions approximately so you have about 47% chance that during one hour you hit 3 purple mats ... so lets say average 1 and half purple mat / hour ... costing you about 30k (20k per piece)

Why do people think it costs 20k each purple mat when running crew missions?

 

It's actually closer to 4k each. See here.

 

While it's true the slot machine is affecting the economy, all it's doing is reducing your margins. Everything is still profitable, just not as much.

 

Also note that for Adaptive Circuitry (which costs 3 jawa junk), it's cheaper to run crew missions than it is to run the slots. The slots are just faster.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Khevar

[psandak]

The problem is not in the patch but in the population's anticipation of the event within said patch.

 

Even as 3.0 approached, smart crafters started saving their jawa junk in anticipation of grade 11 materials being made available. It did not happen at launch giving players even more time to acquire and store jawa junk. Now that it finally hit, all that jawa junk got traded in. As a result supplies of materials have skyrocketed and value has plummeted. If you did not expect this...shame on you.

 

The addition of the slot machine has not helped. But IMO BOTH factors are temporary. A month from now, all the materials acquired through saved jawa junk will have gone through the system. And I guarantee that the slot machine will lose its allure in that time as well (yes it may cost less than running missions but missions can be run offline, the slot machine is online only).

 

Lastly, yes material value has dropped but NOT below the cost to acquire via missions. I checked The Harbinger this morning and while gathering materials are no longer 1000+ credits each they are still valued above the 486 credits each to acquire via mission. blue materials were in the tank a long time ago already so no surprise there. And purple materials have dipped significantly but NOT below profitability.

 

In short the sky is not falling like too many here claim.

[eartharioch]

Adding the Grade 11 purples to the vendor the same day as adding a new decoration that gives out Jawa Junk at a pretty fast pace was either really good or really bad planning. I'd like to think the latter, but they've made so many decisions that dumb down the game lately that I wouldn't be surprised if it was the former.

[JonnyRay]

The addition of the slot machine has not helped. But IMO BOTH factors are temporary. A month from now, all the materials acquired through saved jawa junk will have gone through the system. And I guarantee that the slot machine will lose its allure in that time as well (yes it may cost less than running missions but missions can be run offline, the slot machine is online only).

(emphasis added)

 

My thought as well. Sure, there may be some people who will continue to grind the Slot Machine to try to make some money on the GTN, but especially if purple mat prices continue to remain low they'll decide it isn't worth their time.

[varietasplus]

It is quite entertaining that players who have not run crew missions / craft items / sold items on GTN on a regular basis lecture players who actually do all these things every day.

[revcrisis]

Gathering skills are now dead. And wth is going on with GTN prices? All Artifact Augments have tanked in price. We're seeing purple augments going for 40,000 credits now because the mats are so dirt cheap. This has killed all 500 level gathering skills. This has killed all crafting skills because you can't craft anything worth selling. Much impressed. Edited January 15, 2015 by revcrisis

[DarthTHC]

Lower prices coupled with lower overall credits in the economy does not equal a ruined one.

Margins are going to fall, but the credits going out of the economy is going to lower the inflation and make it healthier.

 

What inflation?

 

The price of what useful thing (not cosmetic / discretionary) was increasing?

[Wriwnas]

Could you name any reason why should i care what some nerds are making in the game and about virtual profit that means zero in real world?

So i presume that all this «procrafters» that are working days and nights on their ingame wealth are doing this because of some weird psychical deviations.

Since you dont care about how much credits we, the "nerds with weird psychical deviations" make ingame, why do u even comment in this thread? I suggest you keep your ideas, thoughts and innapropriate/rude comments to yourself or address them to the people in you "real" life that do "real" stuff, that "matter" to people like yourself.

I rest my case.

[Wriwnas]

It is quite entertaining that players who have not run crew missions / craft items / sold items on GTN on a regular basis lecture players who actually do all these things every day.

And call them nerds with weird psychical deviations

[MSchuyler]

Seems to me the largest effect here is with high-end crafters who were making a killing on Grade 11 materials because they anticipated the market and jumped on the opportunity. With no other source in sight they had a monopoly, if not technically, then in practice. So you had midlithe crystals selling for outrageous prices only affordable by very rich players who crafted them into stuff that also sold for a high-end premium because of the materials. And now they have some competition and are pissed about it.

 

How does this apply to the price of phond crystals? How about blue lucent crystals? Ancient artifact fragments? Xonolite underworld metal? Your average sliced tech part? Thermoflux Solution? Catch my drift here?

 

Not much, right? The life of your average grinding crafter who is still gathering putrid piles of Desh on DK trying to get the mats together to get some mods for his own character hasn't changed much. Makeb and whatever the names of those new planets up there in the mid fifties is so far away at this point that it is pointless thinking about it. What's this about 196 gear again? I just got a crystal that gives me +6 Endurance! I was able to sell my latest green armor drop for 795 credits on the GTN after three tries. (That's not 795K, just 795, period.) And this Gold with 3K HP is still kicking my butt.

 

Sounds very much like a First World Problem. But it's fun seeing all this 60 level spittle and high blood pressure.

Edited January 16, 2015 by MSchuyler

[wolfyde]

An influx in rare crafting materials does not alter the foundations of the market, only the profit margins involved.

Prices on mats and finished products will go down to more realistic levels from the ludicrous levels they were at before.

This will benefit the playerbase as a whole, especially the creditcapped f2p and preferred players, and additionally make it cheaper to craft/buy mods for extra outfits, whilst we wait for proper appearance tabs.

I will make less money per crafted item I put up for sale, sure, and I'm fine with that. It will not stop me from crafting items for the market.

 

I think this slotmachine is working as intended; driving down prices whilst simultaneously removing credits from the economy as a moneysink.

 

After all, if I were Bioware, I would not want people to get obscenely rich from crafting and floating tens of millions. They are the ones that are buying all the CM items they want from the GTN without ever opening a pack, so to speak. And I'm sure BW would much rather see them spending real cash in the CM

Edited January 16, 2015 by wolfyde

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And I'm sure BW would much rather see them spending cash in the CM

 

Perhaps but you then people like me wouldn't do that. I wait for people who DO want to spend real cash to have credits and not put in the work to do so then I take the credits I worked for and buy their packs. Thus we are both happy.

 

Whilst I agree that it hasn't and won't kill the market ( well the concept of it ) I do believe it will kill gathering missions if they don't bring the purple drop rate back down from 10%. At this rate it will be cheaper to buy from the GTN than it will be to run the missions. That of course doesn't kill the market either, it just makes running gathering missions pointless if they cost you more than you can buy the mats for.

 

Blues ... well no one cares for those anyway and greens I'm not certain on yet. Being that you subsidise the cost of using the slots by selling rep trophies and any excess mats you don't need ( mat = Jawa Junk ) it does seem much easier to get greens this way also.

It should certainly bring the useful ones for conquest back down into a reasonable price region ( all the ones I use for Artifice are like 1-2K each and I need 24 for a single war supply )

[wolfyde]

That's the only thing that needs to be changed about the slot machine; removing the monetary value of the reputation items, to maximize it's efficiency as a credit sink.

As it stands now, you get about half your money back from what you spent on coins by vendoring the reputation items, and that decreases the amount of money leaving the economy.

Keep in mind that the credits you make from selling the mats on the GTN and/or crafting items with the mats gained from the machine, are not the same as the credits gained by vendoring the reputation items or the credits lost by using the machine. The first is a mere movement of player money, the latter an entry&exit of capital in the economy.

 

An MMO economy has two fundamental mechanics on either end; on the one hand the Entry point, where credits are generated and new currency enters the market's base moneypool; e.g. questrewards, daily rewards, vendoring items to an npc, ...

On the other side is the Exit point, where credits are permanently removed from the market; e.g training costs, modification removal costs, the cut the GTN takes on sales, travel costs, the slot machine, etc.

 

In a perfectly balanced MMO economy the numbers on both sides should be the same, and those base mechanics being in balance is the only requirement for a game's economy to be stable and healthy.

 

Most of what happens 'in the middle', in the actual market of player transactions, has no significant impact on the economy as a whole, because no new capital is created or lost, it only moves in different numbers from one player to another, from buyers to sellers.

The influx of the jawa junk, rare mats, prices plummeting on the GTN, basically everything people are hyperboling over on these boards since Tuesday, only impacts profit margins and the personal wealth of individual players.

 

Overdramatic exclamations like 'economic balance ruined!' stem either from ignorance about those base mechanics, or straight up greed.

Edited January 16, 2015 by wolfyde

[Helig]

That's the only thing that needs to be changed about the slot machine; removing the monetary value of the reputation items, to maximize it's efficiency as a credit sink.

As it stands now, you get about half your money back from what you spent on coins by vendoring the reputation items, and that decreases the amount of money leaving the economy.

Keep in mind that the credits you make from selling the mats on the GTN and/or crafting items with the mats gained from the machine, are not the same as the credits gained by vendoring the reputation items or the credits lost by using the machine. The first is a mere movement of player money, the latter an entry&exit of capital in the economy.

 

An MMO economy has two fundamental mechanics on either end; on the one hand the Entry point, where credits are generated and new currency enters the market's base moneypool; e.g. questrewards, daily rewards, vendoring items to an npc, ...

On the other side is the Exit point, where credits are permanently removed from the market; e.g training costs, modification removal costs, the cut the GTN takes on sales, travel costs, the slot machine, etc.

 

In a perfectly balanced MMO economy the numbers on both sides should be the same, and those base mechanics being in balance is the only requirement for a game's economy to be stable and healthy.

 

Most of what happens 'in the middle', in the actual market of player transactions, has no significant impact on the economy as a whole, because no new capital is created or lost, it only moves in different numbers from one player to another, from buyers to sellers.

The influx of the jawa junk, rare mats, prices plummeting on the GTN, basically everything people are hyperboling over on these boards since Tuesday, only impacts profit margins and the personal wealth of individual players.

 

Overdramatic exclamations like 'economic balance ruined!' stem either from ignorance about those base mechanics, or straight up greed.

It's all well and good, but one fact remains. Crew skills that are used for materials are outclassed by a decoration.

Crafting is a pillar of a modern MMO endgame, just like PvP, just like raiding. It's an integral part of the economy. SWToR never had amazing crafting, or amazing economy, but it (sort-of) did its job.

 

"Healing" the economy (which didn't exactly need healing, was pretty stable) at the cost of crafting\gathering skills would greatly impoverish an entire layer of endgame.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Helig

[wolfyde]

It's all well and good, but one fact remains. Crew skills that are used for materials are outclassed by a decoration.

Crafting is a pillar of a modern MMO endgame, just like PvP, just like raiding. It's an integral part of the economy. SWToR never had amazing crafting, or amazing economy, but it (sort-of) did its job.

"Healing" the economy (which didn't exactly need healing, was pretty stable) at the cost of crafting\gathering skills would greatly impoverish an entire layer of endgame.

 

Yes, and crafting isn't going anywhere, that was one of the points I was making. Items will still be made and still be sold on the GTN, just as before. People who like to craft will still craft. The only impact is on profit margins.

 

And the situation after SoR was not all that healthy; the low return rates on purple mats from missions drove prices way too high to be affordable to a chunk of the playerbase (the creditcapped f2p and preferred players).

 

Even if crew missions are made redundant, so what? It's not the first time in a game that one mechanic gets replaced by another.

It's not like those crew missions have an element of interactivity or fun to them; you click and wait for a return.

What of your game experience is exactly lost there?

Edited January 16, 2015 by wolfyde

[Dacorianton]

Muahahahahahahahahah.....muahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

i have grinded out hundreds of stacks of jawa junk

 

i once was forced to buy from you stoopid peons but no longer. There is no need. I have been doing this **** non-stop and now i have an entire tab in legacy storage filled with jawa junk. I'm running two cartel contraband slot machines as you read this

 

long live bioware!!!!!!!!!!!

[CristianRo]

It is true that the Market will suffer a change but LETS BE SERIOUS here - its only a hit for BIG crafters, that is true they invested a lot of cash for unlocking and everything but - it also gives a chance to small crafters and random people to get some mats, craft stuff and sell - at lower costs.

 

Meaning the HIGH prices will be lowered, the BIG crafters wont make the same profit anymore - but that does not mean MARKET is dying - it means your business is.

 

Its a game where everyone should have a chance do make some credits so even if we loose some profit - i dont mind.

Im sure you`ll find some willing to sell their mats for even lover prices than before so... all will be fine in the end.

 

yoyoXcamy @ Stroke My Wookie

[Voveca]

Oh well. I see everyone is rather happy that 2/3 of crew skills were utterly replaced by furious slot mashine clicking. So what... Let's replace more game mechanics by that in the future, let the slot mashine hurl out some crafted items as well and let's remove the crew skill system as a whole ... the market will surely stabilise around new mechanics and the prices will adjust.

 

And why stop there, let the next patch bring new slot machines! One for flaspoint drops and another for operation drops. Just insert coin and pray for good drop. Who cares about the old ways!? The new, easy click'n'get mechanics are the best!

 

For those not really the fastest with their brains ... I am holding a "sarcasm" sign in my hand as I type this...

[varietasplus]

Yes, and crafting isn't going anywhere, that was one of the points I was making. Items will still be made and still be sold on the GTN, just as before. People who like to craft will still craft. The only impact is on profit margins.

 

And the situation after SoR was not all that healthy; the low return rates on purple mats from missions drove prices way too high to be affordable to a chunk of the playerbase (the creditcapped f2p and preferred players).

 

Even if crew missions are made redundant, so what? It's not the first time in a game that one mechanic gets replaced by another.

It's not like those crew missions have an element of interactivity or fun to them; you click and wait for a return.

What of your game experience is exactly lost there?

 

 

So, you wish to favour f2p and preferred not paying subscription fee instead of subscribers, furthermore, by ripping the latter from gaining credits to buy CM items for credit (whereas CM was created to get money from f2p and preferred), now you expect subscribers to even open their wallet and pay for Cartel Packs as well. So basicly subscribers should pay twice to keep the f2p/preferred entertained. You can't be serious.

 

With the ridiculously easy leveling, there is no need to craft midbie items anymore. As for endgame crafting, you only need augments/min-maxing if you intend to go for hard/nightmare mode operations or ranked arenas, otherwise you have Bolser for both PVE and PVP.

 

Doing the most difficult content of the game requires dedication including credit grinding and subscription fee (or unlocks), this is really working as intended, why should f2p and preferred have full access? As it is know, the slot machines are going to be flooded with bots and margins are going to be reduced to zero owing to the unbalanced supply (infinite reproduction in short time), therefore net profit may only be a result of lucky crits and I am not wasting my time for a few credits (other means ingame provide more), everyone should craft their stuff on their own from this point on.