RIP craft / economy

[comestbest]

You say that like it's a bad thing. Why should ANY crystal cost 80K apiece? All that has happened here is that senior crafters who anticipated gouging the market with high priced stuff and making tons of credits have been shot down by the new kid in town. It may have "destroyed the economy" for the high-end monopolists, but it hasn't "destroyed the economy" for me. Now I can actually afford a midlithe crystal to make some dyes and enjoy a reasonable profit.

 

This is a win/win situation. Low end crafters get to participate and the consumer will enjoy lower prices.

 

 

sounds like socialism/communism to me. enjoy your free crafts comrad.

 

 

why does anything cost money? because it takes time and effort to get it. if it no longer takes time and effort then it won't be worth nearly as much.

Edited January 17, 2015 by comestbest

[eartharioch]

I just (and I mean JUST) finished going through my characters this morning and I actively looked at a LOT of items on the GTN and there is NOTHING out of the ordinary on The Harbinger.

 

• Farium 405
  
• Molytex 1,100
  
• Trimantium 999
  
• Doonium 10k
  
• Biocell Memory core 368
  
• Autoimmune Reg 17500
  
• Adaptive circ 22500
  
• Midlithe 7k
  
• fragments 960
  
• power cr 840
  

 

Farium and Doonium were the ONLY crafting materials I found at what I would consider to be low value, but even Doonium is not TERRIBLE

I actually expected the Blue slicing mat and blue UWT mat to be lower.

Purple gemstones. OK they were 50k each, but if you expected that to remain in tact...it was just not gonna happen.

purple sliced mats, again (based on the doom and gloom here) I expected MUCH lower

 

 

• ALL blue augments are running in the 12k to 20k range. 12k is low but not unheard of. 15k to 20k is normal 30k is exceedingly high.
  
• ALL purple augments are running in the 55k to 80k range. are they the 125k they were? No, but if you expected that to remain you were deluding yourself.
  
• Purple Ruusan relics are still at 125k each
  
• Purple Implants...even the ****** Willpower tank implants are posted at 75k each.
  
• Blue quality ear pieces are implants are in the 20k to 25k range. unchanged.
  
• Dye modules Some are in the tank, but they are the ones that are not as popular anyway. the popular ones are still 65k+ again not the 100k they were fetching but those prices were already coming down before the patch.
  
• purple hilts - just posted one of each hilt type and the only one that was valued below 60k was might. Again not the 80k+ that they were fetching but still well within the "these are worth making to sell' range.
  
• purple barrels - they were in the tank long ago but they are still profitable at the 21k they are getting.
  

 

Maybe I am just more accepting than others.

 

You are more accepting than I am. I fully expected Grade 11 purple prices to continue to decline and reach a stable point. However, I also expected that that point would be reached "naturally" as supply and demand stabilized due to player choices (how many crafters/gatherers to run, which schematics to acquire, which missions to run, selling mats directly v. crafted goods, etc.) in the game.

 

By tying the price of Grade 11 purples to those of all other Grades of purples (which is what the Jawa Junk does) and letting that mechanism return Jawa Junk so much faster than people could get Grade 11 purples by running missions (which the slot machine does), the devs caused the Grade 11 mats to balance out at end-of-expansion prices only six weeks into the new expansion. They have removed [most of] the challenge of establishing and maintaining a supply chain as part of the crafting system.

 

There have already been numerous complaints about the lack of content or challenge in SoR. This is just one more. I'm not saying that crafting and playing the market won't still be profitable (mat sale price is only one factor), I'm saying that it won't be as fun.

 

They could (and imo should) remove the Jawa Junk entirely from the Slot Machine payouts and it would still be a fun and useful decoration (almost free Legend rep for a vendor with some of the coolest stuff + certficates useful at all CM vendors).

 

And FYI, on my server (being generous)

Midlithe: 40K -> 10K -- 75% decrease in value

Ruusan Relics: 200K -> 100K -- 50% decrease in value

 

Most everything took at least a 50% hit. There's nothing "ordinary" about it.

Edited January 17, 2015 by eartharioch

[AlrikFassbauer]

sounds like socialism/communism to me. enjoy your free crafts comrad.

 

Ah, yes, the typical american Commies hate again.

 

Socialism is the opposite of exclusivism. And exclusivism is what high prices are for : As few as possible shoulb be able to afford a certain good. It's as simple as that.

 

Of course I can sell a pack of wheat and a pack of sugar in RL for 300 Dollars, That's exactly the same thing like selling goods for high prices tro me.

 

And those who have the money will buy up all of the things THEY believe should cost for HUNDREDS of Credits in the GTN - they are buying EVERYTHING because they have to actual money to bbuy EVERYTHING !

And this is the typical example of the Bible's "Matthew Effect" : "Those who have will be given even more; those who don't take will be taken from".

It's buying a doll for a nickel from a child and re-sell it for hundreds of dollars to an doll collector ... Oh, my ...

If you believe THIS a "healthy economy", then I STRONGLY advise you doing a sanity check !

It had a reason why in the Christian Church "Greed" was considered as one of the "deadly sins" !

Edited January 17, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[psandak]

And FYI, on my server (being generous)

Midlithe: 40K -> 10K -- 75% decrease in value

Ruusan Relics: 200K -> 100K -- 50% decrease in value

 

Simple math using those numbers:

 

40k x4 Midlithe to make one relic for 200k that's 40k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

10k x4 midlithe to make one relic for 100k that's 60k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

 

Just sayin'

[MeNaCe-NZ]

NOTHING out of the ordinary on The Harbinger.

 

Well it is out of the ordinary because it's changed so much.

 

However the massive prices before can be considered out of the ordinary too. I guess we need to see what balance BW do and see what the next new normal is.

 

Midlithe at 7K though ... getting VERY close to the point where it's not sustainable via missions. I think Khevar mentioned 4K was the average gather cost in his analysis.

 

Means Mission discoveries need to be bought for about 15-16K now to break even also.

 

troubling times like this really separate the high iq people from the average iq people. i used to think you knew something about crafting but times like this shows you know very little of which you speak.

 

midlithe crystals were 40k to 80k and are now 8k or less

 

purple ruusan relics were 280k and are now 40k or less

 

this is a total joke, they destroy crafting more and more with each passing hour. soon everyone will have all the resources and items they ever need and crafting will be worthless.

 

 

resources are no longer time gated, gathering and missions skills are worthless. you don't even need skills to get resources.

 

You probably shouldn't insult people's IQ then post unintelligent nonsense.

 

It doesn't destroy crafting, it probably strengthens it and makes it more accessible to all. It MIGHT destroy gathering for some materials but so far this hasn't occurred.

 

Just because you don't like how far material prices have dropped doesn't mean that it's the end of the world. There is still profit to be made just not as much and there are no rules on how much a profit should be. Those of us doing this for years realise this and don't get too uppity when these things happen, we adapt and continue making fortunes.

 

If you don't adapt you get left behind.

 

then you don't check the gtn much and your second statement doesn't even make sense. of course nothing stays the same forever but it doesn't drop by a factor of 10 in a few days either.

 

Yes it does, it just happened in SWToR lol.

 

That is unnatural and unexpected and is obviously only attributable to BWs actions.

 

Completely and I still say from a bug too - I just don't get the doom n gloom talk. I think people were too used to having it on easy mode.

 

then crafting will be worthless.

 

In a lot of cases crafting was already unprofitable anyway, it will never be useless. I/my guild need a bunch of enhancements. I buy cheaps mats I make a bunch of enhancements - here you go guys, not useless.

 

As to my first point I can think of enhancements and hilts from just a week before this change that were selling for a good 10K below what you could sell the materials for on GTN. That to me is already crafting those being a waste of time in terms of profitability. It happens heaps ( and often has ) in Biochem too.

 

If you craft solely to make a profit you need to have a multitude of different craft areas and you need to constantly research your field. Nothing changes there except making 20K profit an item may now be 2K but likewise as a result of this effect on the economy many things you may have bought will drop in price by major factors as there isn't enough money in the economy any more to support the previous high prices.

 

They have removed [most of] the challenge of establishing and maintaining a supply chain as part of the crafting system.

 

The challenge of sending your companions out and hoping for RNG? Oooo soo challenging.

 

Guess what? You can still do that, it's still ( currently ) profitable AND you can use slots.

 

As I said just because something you made 20K profit on now only makes 2K doesn't remove the challenge of working the market, it makes it more challenging on a whole if you want to find ways to retain the bigger profits still.

 

Simple math using those numbers:

 

40k x4 Midlithe to make one relic for 200k that's 40k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

10k x4 midlithe to make one relic for 100k that's 60k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

 

Just sayin'

 

Heh yep, crafting is so dead.

[comestbest]

purple ruusan relics now below 30k each on harbinger

[psandak]

purple ruusan relics now below 30k each on harbinger

 

Three facts about that:

1. 95% of 9 pages of those posted under 45k are three people
   
2. 7 of those 9 pages is ONE person.
   
3. a majority of those under 45k relics are use based relics.
   

Edited January 17, 2015 by psandak

[varietasplus]

I just (and I mean JUST) finished going through my characters this morning and I actively looked at a LOT of items on the GTN and there is NOTHING out of the ordinary on The Harbinger.

...

Maybe I am just more accepting than others.

 

No, you simply don't have enough experience regarding ingame economy.

 

You form your oppinion based on a spot price not so long after a serious interference to the economy, whereas changes should be inspected as a flow, as a trend.

 

It is common practice ingame that people keep on listing their stuff 1/100/1.000 credits less than the cheapest one.

Since supply is growing at a ridiculous rate, whereas demans has already passed global peak and started decreasing progessively, it seems there is hardly any deal made for price breakdown rate is very high.

 

Sure, in a week's time we are likely to hit a price where supply meets demand on a larger scale and price is going to stabilize and crafters adapt (many crafters will be gone refusing to waste their time on marginal profit).

 

But in the end, the major problem remains the same: up until now you could offer your crafted item (your time and former investments) to someone having a rare Cartel Market Item (sacrifising their real life money). Now exchange is restricted to crafted item for crafted item and rare CMI for rare CMI. Good for EA, a disaster for players refusing to buy Cartel Packs.

Edited January 17, 2015 by varietasplus

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If someone is stupid enough to sell the relics at a loss what is your point? As I pointed out earlier that has always been happening.

 

So still a slight profit there depending where crystals were at when listed.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

up until now you could offer your crafted item (your time and former investments) to someone having a Cartel Market Item (sacrifising their real life money). Now exchange is restricted to crafted item for crafted item and CMI for CMI. Good for EA, a disaster for players refusing to buy Cartel Packs.

 

Huh what?

 

No idea what you're on about but it seems you're the one who has no market experience in this game.

 

You sell crafted items you can still buy cartel market items ( which FYI have been dropping quite heavily in price also as I suspected they may - this is my main cash cow so I'm checking various items a few times a day as I fill back my 200 sale slots ). Infact you can buy whatever you like. It's only once you start making a loss on the craft/gather that it becomes a problem because your credits go backwards instead of forwards.

 

I just listed a few CM items at like 400 credits , greens probably sell for more. My problem is I can't vendor it and don't really believe in totally trashing it unless I really am super stuck for space.

 

So whatever you're on about crafted items for cartel market items ... it's wrong.

 

Even taking into consideration rare items ... what were you crafting that let you buy a rare item? You had to craft many, many items to generate the profit required for rare items ( depending your definition of rare ). This hasn't changed and now as CM items drop in price to match the lack of money in the economy it begins to balance out again ( except anyone sitting on tons of money prior to all this can pick up CM items much cheaper than before ).

Edited January 17, 2015 by MeNaCe-NZ

[manitoublack]

Hello All, this will be my very first 'whinge' post and only second post ever on the forums. The new slot machine is NOT Broken, However its mechanic within the game IS Broken and thus breaks the game. You can quote me on that. It mechanic is broken in the same way the Skullclamp was broken in MTG many moons ago. In that the slotmachine by itself is benign and harmless, but what its mechanics allow to occur in the metagame is beyond what was intended and thus breaks the game (in particular the resource gathering game, Not Crafting.)

 

Let me explain:

In the old days,

While you were on your adventures and thus playing the game (questing/warzones/FP's/Operations/Dailies... you know MMO stuff) you would send your companions off to gather stuff (costs credits,) or you could gather items (but not all items) from the open world (cost time.) But what this part of the game taught was time & asset management, thus discipline. To be better at it then the next shmuck you had to manage your assets better than them. The point being that while you were playing the game (this next bit is crucial to the broken nature) you could/would also be gathering mats at the same time. The market (GTN) set the price at whatever, based on the fact that purples fell at the will of the RNG. If you didn't like the price, manage your assets better and gather the mats yourself, it didn't take much extra effort and there was a small profit in it.

 

Now.

That effective gathering mini game is now broken, because gathering mats it is no longer about asset management to gather mats better than the next shmuck it's about using a SKINNER BOX that PREVENTS YOU FROM PLAYING THE GAME. Playing SWTOR is not standing in your (or any other stronghold) playing a slot machine to gather mats. MMO's are skinner box's by nature but this is a slap in the face. If I want to gather mats now at a price below what I can get on the GTN I need to stop questing/raiding/etc... and play a slot machine. I don't play slot machines in casino's because they are boring there is no skill, I play games because they are fun and require skill. That Bio-Ware is BROKEN.

 

The slot machine mechanic breaks the meta game of gathering and replaces it with a skinner box in an empty stronghold

 

That is the very definition of Broken.

 

I didn't lose out on having a stack of purple mats as I always keep an empty inventory. I either sell what I gathered quickly or Crafted something and sold it. Keeping large inventories is dangerous in the real would as it is in a game world, as the market can change rendering your inventory worthless. Try being in retail computer or phone sales where a single update to a product will render your existing stock almost valueless.

 

Ah-Ha! you say, good rant but there a dime a dozen on here, Where is the solution, to this broken problem. Well here:

 

Unfortunately it's very difficult to put the cat back in the bag, thus removing the slotmachine/or altering its drop rates is largely pointless as it benefits those greatly who have been playing the slots. The best solution as has been mentioned is to lower the Cost and time of crew skill and increase the drop rate to match the slot machine. If you get the balance correct prices will remain low (good,) but you'll make crew skills relevant thus rewarding the disciplined player who can keep the companions active.

 

It may be wise to also remove the exotic mats form the Jawa vendor or provide another means of obtaining them other then largely irrelevant L50 operations. Maybe have them drop in the L60 flashpoints.

 

You can find me on Harbinger pub: Æthia/hotintights/Firen'ice/Nappá or imp: manitouminte/Healson'wheels/María/Laúra.

 

Regards

Jordan

Edited January 17, 2015 by manitoublack
spelling

[asbalana]

.....

 

But in the end, the major problem remains the same: up until now you could offer your crafted item (your time and former investments) to someone having a rare Cartel Market Item (sacrifising their real life money). Now exchange is restricted to crafted item for crafted item and rare CMI for rare CMI. Good for EA, a disaster for players refusing to buy Cartel Packs........

 

There is a key point here.

 

I believe that BW is moving to wring more money out of subs through the CM avenue. The concept being that if a player cannot amass the credits to buy CM offerings on the GTN then he/she will buy packs. It will be interesting to see if that holds or if there is a counter effect. That is if not being able to sell CM offerings for credits (BWs not so subtle gold selling) will cause a decrease in CM sales and reduction in revenues.

 

It will also be interesting to see that if in the end these moves increase or decrease sub revenue.

Edited January 17, 2015 by asbalana

[varietasplus]

Huh what?

 

No idea what you're on about but it seems you're the one who has no market experience in this game.

....

So whatever you're on about crafted items for cartel market items ... it's wrong.

 

Even taking into consideration rare items ... what were you crafting that let you buy a rare item? You had to craft many, many items to generate the profit required for rare items ( depending your definition of rare ). This hasn't changed and now as CM items drop in price to match the lack of money in the economy it begins to balance out again ( except anyone sitting on tons of money prior to all this can pick up CM items much cheaper than before ).

 

Man, it was very tempting not to respond to your post, but I have to for you might have confused others with your post.

 

Yes, there are crafters who had time advantage owing the former ingame investments (having a lot of alts with max affection companions) and it is only fair they expect something in return, especially if they decide to give away a rare crafting mat with which they could craft gear for themselves.

 

Second, explain why you think there is going to be a lack of credits in the economy? Ever since patch 3.0 credits sinks are getting removed (augment bolster, crew missions, etc.), whereas credit is constantly generated by players completing missions. On the contrary, the ammount of credit in the economy is going to increase overall (ignoring the actions of the wealthiest players for simplification).

 

CM item price drop is inevitable for common CM items in the latest pack for there is a large amount of those in stock ATM. However, Rare CM item price undercut is only notable in the first two weeks after releasing a new Cartel Pack. Once only a few pieces are left for sale, price is stabilized on a high absolute value (hundreds of thousands or millions of credits) until related CP becomes unavailable. After that, the price of that CMI is multiplied and stays unchanged until the CP becomes available again or there is an alternate way of obtaining the item (as it happened to the Diplomat's Hover Chair).

 

So, who is clueless about ingame market?

Edited January 17, 2015 by varietasplus

[MeNaCe-NZ]

There is a key point here.

 

I believe that BW is moving to wring more money out of subs through the CM avenue. The concept being that if a player cannot amass the credits to buy CM offerings on the GTN then he/she will buy packs. It will be interesting to see if that holds or if there is a counter effect. That is if not being able to sell CM offerings for credits (BWs not so subtle gold selling) will cause a decrease in CM sales and reduction in revenues.

 

It will also be interesting to see that if in the end these moves increase or decrease sub revenue.

 

Counter point: If noone has the money to buy the CM items from GTN then those selling them will drop the prices. Fact.

They won't list them at say 500K over and over if it never sells because their profit on that item becomes effectively 0.

 

Serious Crate/Pack buyers who do so generate credits want to move stock fast but still for the best markup they can so they will constantly relist lower and lower until their stock starts selling.

 

Less money in the economy = cheaper prices all round.

 

Why less money in the economy? People running slots instead of doing things that actually create credits ( dailies etc. ) and also the slots are a money sink, you can only get profitable credits from it by selling your mats on the GTN thus taking existing credits from someone else. The credits you put into the machine are gone once you sell the trophies ( so 50% of what you spend on chips on average ).

 

Second, explain why you think there is going to be a lack of credits in the ecnomy?

 

Read above.

 

n the contrary, the ammount of credit in the economy is going to increase overall

 

At least if you are going to ask me to explain do the courtesy of doing so yourself.

 

After that, the price of that CMI is multiplied and stays unchanged until the CP becomes available again or there is an alternate way of obtaining the item (as it happened to the Diplomat's Hover Chair).

 

So, who is cluless about ingame market?

 

Firstly if there is only say 1-2 items on the entire GTN I wouldn't really call that part of the regular market per se, at least not vulnerable to the same market forces. Reason being the seller can afford to leave it there at 3 million day on day if they so choose until someone finally does buy it. However often that is not the case, the price will keep coming down until someone buys it.

 

Secondly you still aren't making sense. You are implying the market is a static one, it is not, prices fluctuate greatly day to day on both common and rare items. Even ultra rare items have no set selling point.

 

If you think prices remain unchanged as you imply you are deluding yourself and you really do have no clue about how the market works.

 

CM is my bread and butter. I did the hard yards in crafting/gathering/investing and I now have about 15 full bags of more or less rare cartel items i've accumulated over time for the cm lottery. I also only run 2 toons and generate about 5-10 million a day in revenue with CM sales between the 2 toons. I wouldn't say profit as I tend to reinvest my revenue back into more rare packs etc. that I feel will give me best odds of dropping materials that make a profit.

 

It is very rare I buy packs at a loss, the only times this has happened are really new packs when I want to maximize any new rep. Even then I pick out what I think will increase in value and sit on them until embargo and they become quite profitable that way ( it's slow but it works ).

 

My goal is to have my 15 bays full of rare/ultra items heh, or atl east items all worth 100K+. It's a long game but I'm actually not that far off from achieving it really, I have surpringly little junk like gloves, bracers etc.

 

As to how I play the market - I have a fair idea what things are worth. I know this chest armor i've sold for 500K before, I see there are a bunch on now at 100K and upwards ( this was as of today too ). I buy the few at 100K and relist 1 at the next lowest prices which was 165K. I know I could have sat on it to eventually get the 500K odd but the extra I bought can sit inventory for that ( plus the one I already had and was trying to sell that made me look at this item in the first place ).

 

Other times I know an item I have sold for 100K might be going for 45K so I list it at 40K because it's small fish to me and I need the inventory space to keep buying packs to build up my rare stocks.

 

My point here is the pricing is never static, it is always changing and drastically so. CM items are probably the more volatile and fluctuating market of the entire game.

 

Add to that less credits being spent on items and I still need to sell my items I will drop my prices, likewise those selling packs will need do the same if they want me to buy their packs. I sell for less then my suppliers need to sell to me for less to make it still profitable to me.

 

It's all fairly basic economics when you get right down to it.

[psandak]

No, you simply don't have enough experience regarding ingame economy.

 

You form your oppinion based on a spot price not so long after a serious interference to the economy, whereas changes should be inspected as a flow, as a trend.

 

I check pricing EVERY day because I sell and buy stuff off the GTN EVERY day. Yes what I posted was a spot check. My point was that those spot check prices were not all that different from the pricing I had seen in the past. Some prices were lower than before but still profitable and when taking into account overall price differences as I describe in a previous post in this thread:

 

Simple math using those numbers:

 

40k x4 Midlithe to make one relic for 200k that's 40k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

10k x4 midlithe to make one relic for 100k that's 60k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

 

Just sayin'

 

...while overall value is down, raw profit is up.

 

I'll admit that several hours later some items' prices had dropped significantly. Does that mean I am going to stop doing what I do every day? NO! Because I am a dedicated crafter (albeit not as dedicated as some), I have the resources and wherewithal to either: post my stuff at higher prices until they sell (AKA patience), or buy up the cheap stuff and re-post at higher pricing. In this particular environment I am more inclined to do the former. But I have also done some of the latter and have already profited (albeit only slightly) from it.

Edited January 17, 2015 by psandak

[varietasplus]

My point here is the pricing is never static, it is always changing and drastically so. CM items are probably the more volatile and fluctuating market of the entire game.

 

Add to that less credits being spent on items and I still need to sell my items I will drop my prices, likewise those selling packs will need do the same if they want me to buy their packs. I sell for less then my suppliers need to sell to me for less to make it still profitable to me.

 

It's all fairly basic economics when you get right down to it.

 

Of course pricing is not static, I said nothing alike, what are you talking about?

I said rare items remained expensive, those never drop down to the value of a common CM item (or any crafted item).

A rare item with a value of hundreds of thousands or millions depending on rarity is not going to sell with 30%+ discount unless personal mistake is made (and is going to be immediately corrected by pro sellers monitoring the market).

 

On my server, Hover Chairs have always cost at least 8-10M credits, it has always been an exceptional chance to buy one for 4-5 millions until the moment Diplomat's Hover Chair was accessible by other means. Or take another favoured CM item, Tythonian lightsaber, in the beginning you could buy it for 1 million credits, however it costs now at least 2 millions.

 

Now, onto your overall price reduction theory.

 

First of all, I fail to see how the current number of slot machines, the GCD on a roll and the 500 credit token cost are on paar with the credits generated by a server's population in the meantime.

 

Second, without a doubt, stocked items may break down prices temporary in case the owner wants to get rid of those at all cost. Apart from the fact that such dumping price is an action to lower the loss on a former mistake, it is definitely going to change the future behaviour/expectations of other sellers.

 

For example, if normally a Cartel Pack is sold for 500k, but someone is breaking down the price to 300k for weeks, less and less players are going to spend their real life money on cartel packs, resulting in lower supply, therefore price should go up in a few days. True, theoreticaly a single player can monopolise CP sales if he does that for a price no one else would, but that seems unlikely.

 

When you believe a new balance for rare CM items may be achieved at lower prices, you ignore the current credit pool and distribution and the potential behaviour of the wealthy. They probably know how valuable rare items are just like you, therefore they are going to buy up all the underpriced stuff hoping they could resell it later on, so prices are not going to break down or only on the long run (in case they come to the conclusion that their price expections were invalid and would rather resell the items without profit or even with loss).

 

 

TL;DR, I have three major problems with your theory:

 

1. Slot machines can only drain a fraction of credits generated in the same time window.

 

2. If prices drop, you can afford rare CM items for credits gathered ingame, therefore you get little in exchange for the real life money you spend on a CP.

 

3. However, if you can't afford those, with crafting (high profitability) gone, you can only offer CM item for CM item (either directly or indirectly). For a while former crafters will be able to avoid buying Cartel Packs, but sooner or later they burn their savings and credits will be redistributed to players buying Cartel Packs and CMI arbitrageours.

Edited January 18, 2015 by varietasplus

[DawnAskham]

I just (and I mean JUST) finished going through my characters this morning and I actively looked at a LOT of items on the GTN and there is NOTHING out of the ordinary on The Harbinger.

 

• Farium 405
  
• Molytex 1,100
  
• Trimantium 999
  
• Doonium 10k
  
• Biocell Memory core 368
  
• Autoimmune Reg 17500
  
• Adaptive circ 22500
  
• Midlithe 7k
  
• fragments 960
  
• power cr 840
  

 

Farium and Doonium were the ONLY crafting materials I found at what I would consider to be low value, but even Doonium is not TERRIBLE

I actually expected the Blue slicing mat and blue UWT mat to be lower.

Purple gemstones. OK they were 50k each, but if you expected that to remain in tact...it was just not gonna happen.

purple sliced mats, again (based on the doom and gloom here) I expected MUCH lower

 

 

• ALL blue augments are running in the 12k to 20k range. 12k is low but not unheard of. 15k to 20k is normal 30k is exceedingly high.
  
• ALL purple augments are running in the 55k to 80k range. are they the 125k they were? No, but if you expected that to remain you were deluding yourself.
  
• Purple Ruusan relics are still at 125k each
  
• Purple Implants...even the ****** Willpower tank implants are posted at 75k each.
  
• Blue quality ear pieces are implants are in the 20k to 25k range. unchanged.
  
• Dye modules Some are in the tank, but they are the ones that are not as popular anyway. the popular ones are still 65k+ again not the 100k they were fetching but those prices were already coming down before the patch.
  
• purple hilts - just posted one of each hilt type and the only one that was valued below 60k was might. Again not the 80k+ that they were fetching but still well within the "these are worth making to sell' range.
  
• purple barrels - they were in the tank long ago but they are still profitable at the 21k they are getting.
  

 

Maybe I am just more accepting than others.

 

I bought stacks of Adaptive Circuitry this morning and throughout the day between 10-12K, and have been making purple augments all day and selling for 85-95K, though they seem to be heading lower at this point.

 

I bought a bunch of Autoimmune Regulators sub 10K and have a couple of biochemists cranking out purple stims and adrenals to fill the guild bank.

 

I bought a bunch of Midlithe Crystals for 6-7K and have been turning them into enhancements selling for 55-75K, along with relics in the 125-135K range, along with a few dyes in the 60K range.

 

Most everything else has been selling for about what you see, and even Adp Circuitry has bounced back a bit and is closer to 20k than the 10k I found earlier.

 

Still not sure how this impacts the game in the mid to longer run, I suppose prices will moderate at some point but still have a ways to fall, especially on the crafted side as that is still throttled by the number of characters with crafting skills and time required to craft items.

 

I do feel that the rates / yields on jawa junk will be adjusted, as it is much more efficient than crew skills, and for some of the mats, much cheaper.

 

I also feel they are going to have their hands full dealing with the inevitable botting of the machines.

[eartharioch]

Simple math using those numbers:

 

40k x4 Midlithe to make one relic for 200k that's 40k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

10k x4 midlithe to make one relic for 100k that's 60k profit not including other materials or GTN cut

 

Just sayin'

 

I gather my own mats, so the math is:

 

4K x4 Midlithe to make one Relic for 200K, that's 184K profit

4K x4 Midlithe to make one Relic for 100K, that's 84K profit.

 

Just sayin'

 

OFC, since I only run two TH chars, I was still able to make a good profit even buying Midlithe in 40-45K range, and did so. I also generally only made and sold the most profitable Relics, so I was usually getting more like 250-300K per.

 

But the way I model the market, I base everything off of mat cost whether I sell the mats directly or indirectly (i.e., as crafted items). I don't make things that I can't sell for more than the raw mats. So even now, I'm still doing fine, but I do notice the loss of the mat sale even if the crafted portion appears to increase. And I'm not complaining *that* the prices went down, I fully expected them to do so, but I expected it to be due to increased competition as the people crafting DPS gear realized the higher profit margins in tank gear, more players leveling up crew skills and selling mats and items, and lower demand (since I don't deal in consumables, once the players willing to spend the most get what they want, they don't need to buy more).

 

My complaint isn't that I'm making less money -- prices were already trending downward. My complaint is how it was done, and how it has dumbed down an already simple system.

[eartharioch]

...while overall value is down, raw profit is up

 

Both of those were sale prices...if you didn't run missions for your mats and only buy off of the GTN, yes your profits went up. But if you run [at least some of] your own missions, your net profits went down because the losses in your mission division are greater than the gains in your production division.

Edited January 18, 2015 by eartharioch

[eartharioch]

As to my first point I can think of enhancements and hilts from just a week before this change that were selling for a good 10K below what you could sell the materials for on GTN. That to me is already crafting those being a waste of time in terms of profitability. It happens heaps ( and often has ) in Biochem too.

 

That's not because crafting is useless, it's because a lot of people go for the "obvious" moneymakers like DPS gear, and then the markets for those items gets oversaturated. Also, some people craft big batches of the same thing, so if the prices on those items drop too fast, they gut "stuck" selling items for less than the mat value (but hopefully more than they paid or the mats).

 

The challenge of sending your companions out and hoping for RNG? Oooo soo challenging.

 

Guess what? You can still do that, it's still ( currently ) profitable AND you can use slots.

 

I *can* use companions, and I haven't said that they aren't profitable. I will still use companions if I happen to be on a relevant character, I just no longer *need* to, since they aren't *as* profitable as the machine. But the machine bypasses the limitation of three skills per character (any character can play the slots and get any mat) and having to level up those skills, which requires time and money. Running a gathering alt up to the mid 20s (in order to use three companions) requires an investment in time and money. I run one of each crafter and two of each mission/gathering skill but Investigation (just one). In less time than it takes me to launch 16 Rich/Bountiful Grade 11 mission from seven characters, I can spend less money and get the same amount of purples (10). And anybody can do this a level 10 character with no time or money invested in crew skills.

 

I'm not saying that crafting was overly challenging before, but to say it's currently anything other than EZ-MODE is ludicrous.

 

As I said just because something you made 20K profit on now only makes 2K doesn't remove the challenge of working the market, it makes it more challenging on a whole if you want to find ways to retain the bigger profits still/

 

Heh yep, crafting is so dead.

 

I never said crafting was dead. I am saying that [effectively] replacing the mission running system with an "I WIN" button is lame. And while the overall crafting system isn't dead, people who made a living gathering and reselling mats are pretty screwed. Fortunately, while I gathered (and occasionally sold) mats, I avoided the markets where items sold for less than the mat sale value, so while my overall profits are down, I am still profitable.

[oked]

I had alot to say and if u say it later on in a post ppl tend to not read it

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Of course pricing is not static, I said nothing alike, what are you talking about?

 

After that, the price of that CMI is multiplied and stays unchanged until the CP becomes available again or there is an alternate way of obtaining the item (as it happened to the Diplomat's Hover Chair).

 

How else would one interpret that? I rally don't actually know what your point is either, you've not really made one to that point ( yet to read the rest of your post mind ) that makes any logical sense to the issue at hand other than to tell a crafting/gathering/GTN veteran ( and MMO's in general ) he doesn't understand what he's talking about and failed to back it up heh ( and no I'm not talking about myself in this case ).

 

A rare item with a value of hundreds of thousands or millions depending on rarity is not going to sell with 30%+ discount unless personal mistake is made (and is going to be immediately corrected by pro sellers monitoring the market).

 

Got some recent examples to back that up? 1 off the top of my head. Krayt Dragon Skeleteon deco - average around 6 mill which is about the minimum I want, listed mine then it dropped to 4 by 1 or 2 undercutters, it's too much of a variable item to really comfortably pay 4 million and assume I will get my 6 million as I also have no idea what BW plan with embargoes.

Now that is over a 30% drop.

 

So if you have some real world examples to back up what you are attempting to say and how exactly it actually relates to the issue at hand I would like to hear it. Also let's not forget this new pack is under 1 week old so what effect this will or will not have on the CM items I put to you that you have no idea. I base my thoughts on logic and the already downtrend I'm seeing in pricing.

 

On my server, Hover Chairs have always cost at least 8-10M credits, it has always been an exceptional chance to buy one for 4-5 millions until the moment Diplomat's Hover Chair was accessible by other means. Or take another favoured CM item, Tythonian lightsaber, in the beginning you could buy it for 1 million credits, however it costs now at least 2 millions.

 

Are these not the exceptional items I spoke of though? Whilst on my server they sell for around 3-4 million and at times have gone up towards 6 when absolutely no one had them I still maintain these items rarity puts themselves outside the norm of market forces.

 

HOWEVER if the current issue were to go on for months on end with the money sink there are going to be less credits in circulation ... FACT. Thus what may have been a 3 million norm may very well have to become a 1.5 million norm as people will actually not buy it ever at the higher price. You see it's all about the value of a single credit in terms of what one can buy with it and if there are less available due to the money sink they ideally gain in value.

 

People seem to ignore the money sink aspect of this new slot machine and only focus on the influx of purples it will generate.

 

First of all, I fail to see how the current number of slot machines, the GCD on a roll and the 500 credit token cost are on paar with the credits generated by a server's population in the meantime.

 

If you're slotting you are sinking credits out of the game, you can't argue this point it is fact.

 

How if you are slotting could you be making new credits to offset the above sinking then?

 

If this issue is so widespread it means there are a lot of people slotting instead of generating new income thus there is less income being introduced into the economy ... it's like MMO Economics 101.

 

Second, without a doubt, stocked items may break down prices temporary in case the owner wants to get rid of those at all cost. Apart from the fact that such dumping price is an action to lower the loss on a former mistake, it is definitely going to change the future behaviour/expectations of other sellers.

 

For example, if normally a Cartel Pack is sold for 500k, but someone is breaking down the price to 300k for weeks, less and less players are going to spend their real life money on cartel packs, resulting in lower supply, therefore price should go up in a few days. True, theoreticaly a single player can monopolise CP sales if he does that for a price no one else would, but that seems unlikely.

 

Except with less credits coming into supply the value of A credit increases. It's all about buying power and perception.

Sure you might think you are getting a raw deal for getting say 250K instead of 500K but if the entire market trend is also down then that 250K buy you a lot more than it did previously meaning it is more equivalent to the old 500K. It's deflation of the economy as opposed to inflation. "A general decline in prices, often caused by a reduction in the supply of money or credit."

 

When you believe a new balance for rare CM items may be achieved at lower prices, you ignore the current credit pool and distribution and the potential behaviour of the wealthy. They probably know how valuable rare items are just like you, therefore they are going to buy up all the underpriced stuff hoping they could resell it later on, so prices are not going to break down or only on the long run (in case they come to the conclusion that their price expections were invalid and would rather resell the items without profit or even with loss).

 

Again if you admit the prices drop as a result of what i say then yes we welathy could do that but we won't be able to resell it at a hgiher point without some new market force to come along to reintroduce wealth into the economy to allow us to do so. If the market price is 500K and i thought it should be 1 million and I buy 10 items at 500K ... I won't sell 10 items at 1 million. Ideally the only people wanting it are those that don't have it, old school wealthy players probably have all the older items they want/need. Anyone newer coming along has less credits for the same situation than we had back then ( evne though we can equate the value as being the same in terms of buying power ) thus won't or can't afford my 1 million price point. I therefore have to drop it back towards 500K which was the market price thus what the market was willing to pay for it.

 

I don't set the pricing, the consumer does with what they are willing to pay for it. Just because you monopolise a market doesn't mean you can set any price you like if people can't / won't pay it.

 

That's not because crafting is useless, it's because a lot of people go for the "obvious" moneymakers like DPS gear, and then the markets for those items gets oversaturated. Also, some people craft big batches of the same thing, so if the prices on those items drop too fast, they gut "stuck" selling items for less than the mat value (but hopefully more than they paid or the mats).

 

I think that's my point ... crafting is no more useless now than it ever was as a result of this ( or dead ). People selling items for less than the material cost has and always will occur, this slot machine didn't make it happen in the post I was quoting. Yes you will make less credits now, however that doesn't necessarily mean your actual margin % has dropped.

 

The key to this whole thing is what do people want to spend their profit on and what is happening to those markets? I'm finding CM tough right now ( lower sales prices ) but it is the weekend and it's always tougher now so we'll see what happens over the next few days.

 

I *can* use companions, and I haven't said that they aren't profitable. I will still use companions if I happen to be on a relevant character, I just no longer *need* to, since they aren't *as* profitable as the machine.

 

Why wouldn't you do both? Profit is profit.

 

But the machine bypasses the limitation of three skills per character (any character can play the slots and get any mat) and having to level up those skills, which requires time and money. Running a gathering alt up to the mid 20s (in order to use three companions) requires an investment in time and money. I run one of each crafter and two of each mission/gathering skill but Investigation (just one). In less time than it takes me to launch 16 Rich/Bountiful Grade 11 mission from seven characters, I can spend less money and get the same amount of purples (10). And anybody can do this a level 10 character with no time or money invested in crew skills.

 

Maybe then this new concept ( not necessarily the slots but the concept of jawa junk ) is the better concept and the old way is what is flawed?

 

When it becomes globalised like this it means any changes they make etc. game wise doesn't hurt a bunch of users because they chose X crew skill that was awesome before but now they get "punished" because of some inadvertant, unrelated issue that puts there crew skill on the back foot. There is no "skill" there either in those cases as no one can read Biowares minds. You do your research etc. and level up your crew skill and it's cool for awhile then along comes the change and you're basically stuffed.

 

This way though ... everyone can end up on a level footing in terms of gathering skills.

 

Not saying this is the intention or the concept or whether or not I agree with it ( yet to really think on it ) but you can argue it is more fair to all.

 

I'm not saying that crafting was overly challenging before, but to say it's currently anything other than EZ-MODE is ludicrous.

 

Crafting or gathering? I would argue with such a massive influx of material supply it becomes more challenging to find the right items to craft and this can vary day to day. I know many veteran crafters have their bread and butter crafts and stick ot it day in and day out and it's changes like this that can throw it in a tizz ( and get the outrage some have expressed ) and now they have to work more for it ( more research on a larger scale of items day to day vs material cost etc. ). So if that concept to you is ludicrous ... perhaps look up the meaning of ludicrous because to me it seems rather logical.

 

I never said crafting was dead. I am saying that [effectively] replacing the mission running system with an "I WIN" button is lame. And while the overall crafting system isn't dead, people who made a living gathering and reselling mats are pretty screwed. Fortunately, while I gathered (and occasionally sold) mats, I avoided the markets where items sold for less than the mat sale value, so while my overall profits are down, I am still profitable.

 

How is it an I WIN button? You act like it has replaced some system, it has not. Until the point your mission running is more expensive that slots it's replaced nothing.

 

You can still make your living as you did before and do slots on top if you so choose. If you choose not to oh well that's fine, you are still profitable as you say.

 

It is all rather moot anyway though because I've never once said I think this exact system was as intended, it's blatantly obvious they stuffed up bigtime with the purple etc. drop rates ( even trophies ) ... they are all the same heh. It should be like the 15/10/3 system of the packs ( sorry to the confusion where i previously said it was 30/15/3 - it's 15/10/3 for green/blue/purple ).

 

Once it's bought back to that and they stop trophies being able to be vendored this will be nothing more than a side show. I assume anyway, I would need run the average math once it's changed.

 

My whole point in all of this is even though if nothing changed it won't hurt anything other than gathering missions once they cost more than mat value and actually become useless.

[varietasplus]

People seem to ignore the money sink aspect of this new slot machine and only focus on the influx of purples it will generate.

 

If you're slotting you are sinking credits out of the game, you can't argue this point it is fact.

 

How if you are slotting could you be making new credits to offset the above sinking then?

 

If this issue is so widespread it means there are a lot of people slotting instead of generating new income thus there is less income being introduced into the economy ... it's like MMO Economics 101.

 

Ok, one last attempt to show you where you went wrong.

A slot machine roll takes 5-6 seconds, so you can burn 5-6k credits per minute.

Let's say there are 1.000 people online on the server.

 

What is your guess, how many slot machines are being used simultaneously and how many players are having fun doing dailies, playing PVP or flashpoint, all generating credits?

 

The second flaw in your theory is that you consider slot machines to be constantly sinking credits, whereas it is only temporary. Slot machine gathering of all grades of mats is ridiculously fast and cheap, therefore built-in crafting fee is heading towards zero. The major problem is, in a few weeks time anyone can gather enough mats to gear their toons up with the credit resources generated by dailies, FP and PVP and once they are done, there will be no incentive to use the slot machine unless you enjoy the infinite stacks of crafting mats in your inventory.

 

In the meantime, other credit sinks have become ineffective ingame:

- crew missions

- augmentation costs for credit-sensitive players (Bolster does the job)

- training skills

- crafting premium (on easy-to-access schematics)

- etc.

 

We can argue all day whether slot machines sink more credits than players generate in an hour, it is pointless for it represent the current status only. But there is no way you seriously think that slot machine is going to be a serious sink factor in a month or two unless other means of using crafting mats is introduced.

 

So no, you have not convinced me credit pool would decrease; on the contrary.

 

However, suppose you were right about decreasing Cartel Packs / Cartel Market items prices, you would still need to resolve the problem of decreased gap between credits obtained by doing ingame stuff and the credits you get for your real life money (CP). If players get only 250k for a CP instead of 500k, whereas they gain some ammount of ingame money for completed daily/weekly missions, it is likely less are going to buy CP. Do you think that would be in line with EA's expectations?

Edited January 18, 2015 by varietasplus

[Chilli]

It was nice to feel useful and make some credits along the way.....till 3.0.2 anyways

 

remove lv11 purples from the jawas DEVs and we may just recover, but i fear its already to late

 

RIP craft economy

Edited January 18, 2015 by Chilli

[kojottt]

so if you unsub, can i has your stuff?