The Contraband Slot Machine

[LordArtemis]

No, they didn't. It would be better if the machine had never been introduced (as it was), and the machine is still useful for gaining Contraband rep and certificates (just not for free).

 

It is not useful for gaining certificates. It is torture for gaining certificates.

 

So, yea....they did.

 

Unfortunately, as much as it pains me, I have to agree with you that they best thing they could have done is never have released it in the first place.

 

And BOY does it pain me. Feels unnatural somehow.

There is no way they can rectify the original release, and there is no way they can change it from what it is now to something that everybody would like.

 

Yes on the former, no on the latter...errr, actually maybe. But of course it is unlikely anyway, so a moot point and all that.

 

Making any comment would be worse than making no comment, as that would only encourage people who have let it go to get back into the fray.

 

The only way to win is not to play the game.

 

Nope, that is the only way to lose. And lose they have.

 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

I say it like it is TELLING.

 

You didn't seem that upset when you thought it was people like me that would be quitting had BW not nerfed the machine.

 

Well......not people like you....you must be more specific . No, I would bet I wasn't likely upset over the prospect.

I imagine you wouldn't be either if I vanished.

 

We do, after all, have such affection for each other, do we not?

Edited February 1, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Transairion]

Still hoping they'll at least actually up the drop rate on Cartel Certs, so I can get more items (such as Legend mounts on multiple characters) that are bound, none of this buy and sell on GTN baloney.

 

 

As much as I hate to say it, I hope they do at least release the other versions for other reputations so I can at least get the ones I don't have (namely ICE). At least the neutered slots will be relatively cheap on the GTN.

 

 

 

Does anyone else think none of this would've really been an issue (well, maybe remove mats altogether) had every drop just been bound? Feel like the big issue everyone takes from this was "I got mats and put them on GTN, I got Certs and bought unbound decoration/personal put them on GTN", which was basically printing credits.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Transairion

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Sure if it was all bound no problems I think. Still a bit of work making the mats you buy with the JJ and then anything you craft bound also.

[idnewton]

It was broken no doubt. So they made it worse.

 

And then they did nothing to rectify it. Not even a follow up.

 

I mean, even Andryah left the game over this.

 

Boohoo, if someone is so immature as to quit the game because Bioware decided to make adjustments to their own game, good riddance.

 

You don't seem to understand what 'broken' is. 'Broken' does not mean "drop rates which I don't like". The original drop rates for the slot machine killed the market for every single crafting material purchasable with jawa scrap. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a Contraband Slot Machine dropping Contraband reputation items is more broken than something which kills the market for an entire CATEGORY of the GTN?

 

 

I'm disappointed in you, I thought a lot more highly of you than that.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[Menolley]

Making everything you craft bound to legacy, yes sure. Making everything you craft bound to toon is bad. My cybertech makes mods and armorings for all my toons. She's not high enough level to use most of them. If what she makes is bound to her, it's vendor trash .. expensive vendor trash, even with mats from slots.

 

I am actually fine with not getting mats off the machine. If it was meant to be a way to get rep items, so be it. That is helpful if you don't have the rep. For those who just play for a while because it's fun (although now it's painful) reducing the failed spin rate from around 70% would be helpful, as would reducing the cost of chips to around 500 credits. Not as big a money sink that way .. selling the unneeded rep items would recover most of the cost if a person is purely playing for the off chance of getting that cursed mount. As it is, by the time it pops most people would have spent far more than it costs to get a similar mount off the GTN.

 

So, minor tweaks and it becomes a viable item again. Probably wishful thinking though.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Menolley

[idnewton]

Oh yeah, let's just make everything coming from crew skills bound in some way. Great idea. Why praise Bioware for killing half the crewskill-related markets when they could kill all of them? And here I thought this thread couldn't get any more hilarious.

 

Do you guys actually play the game? I doubt it.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[Menolley]

Still hoping they'll at least actually up the drop rate on Cartel Certs, so I can get more items (such as Legend mounts on multiple characters) that are bound, none of this buy and sell on GTN baloney.

 

You only need to get the mounts on one character ..they go into collections. For a small investment of RL money, or using the monthly 500 grant to subscribers, it will not take long to unlock them for all characters. For instance I got the Cartel Skiff (can't remember which one) on one toon. Once I used it, it went into collections. I swapped to another toon, paid 120 CC and it was available for all my toons .. even new ones I create.

 

Do you guys actually play the game? I doubt it.

 

I play the game and I make my credits 2 ways. Crafting and buying hypercrates, breaking them down, selling the contents and hoping to make a profit. Sometimes I do, sometimes I lose. I get lots of Certificates this way, and quite a good amount of JJ as well. Enough for my needs anyhow. I never used the slot machine to get JJ .. didn't really need to.

 

Making all crafted items bound would be insane. Making items crafted from JJ from slots bound to legacy would not be unreasonable. There are, after all, other ways to get JJ, and other ways to get purple mats.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Menolley
corrected spelling error

[Iffyluse]

Haha sad gambler addicts cannot indulge in ther drug of choice anymore. Enjoy your detox.

[Tsillah]

Haha sad gambler addicts cannot indulge in ther drug of choice anymore. Enjoy your detox.

 

Apparently we all get to enjoy their detox right here on the forum

[eartharioch]

It is not useful for gaining certificates. It is torture for gaining certificates.

I ran the numbers, it only takes 3 hrs and 550K to get a certificate. 550K would get you maybe 3 packs, and you'd have a lot lower chance to get a Cert. Why *should* it be cheaper or easier to get certs?

 

You're not supposed to take time out of the game to play a slot machine, it's not a job, it's not supposed to be profitable. Yeah, I wish there were more "wins" besides rep (not valuable wins, just wins). But if you play it while waiting for queues, talking with friends/guildies, reading chat, or reading the forums, you can get the odd cert or mat.

 

Nope, that is the only way to lose. And lose they have.

Lol, we all know they've lost relative to not ever having released the machine, and it's sad that they released a machine so broken that the backlash will likely prevent them from ever trying again. But regardless of where they are now versus where they were, the truth is that saying anything at this point would likely make them lose more. Unless you really think that if they said *anything* that nobody would react and complain if BW didn't respond to any new dialog.

 

Well......not people like you....you must be more specific

There are no people *like* me...

 

No, I would bet I wasn't likely upset over the prospect.

I imagine you wouldn't be either if I vanished.

 

We do, after all, have such affection for each other, do we not?

 

If I had actual animosity towards you, I likely wouldn't converse with you at all. I do wish that you would quit acting like BW stood you up at the altar, though. I know you were eagerly waiting for the Kool-Aid service on your comet-ride to the Brave New World you thought they had promised you, but face it: you believed it because you *wanted* to believe it.

[Max_Killjoy]

I ran the numbers, it only takes 3 hrs and 550K to get a certificate.

 

So pretty torturous.

[VladislavAnette]

It was broken no doubt. So they made it worse.

 

And then they did nothing to rectify it. Not even a follow up.

 

 

This is the worst part. No official statement whatsoever

[Iffyluse]

I still can't believe that some people honestly think that Bioawre owes them something. This is the definition of gamer entitlement.

 

It is a simple exchange of goods and services, in this case a monthly subscribtion. You pay for one month, you get to play the game for one month with sub benefits. The deal for that month ends there, the fact that you played for a month does not give you any entitlements for anything in the coming months. You don't earn karma or buddy points with bioware just because you have spent an X amount of money on the game, because the money you spent already got the services provided to you for that money. They do not stack up for the future. If you do not believe that the cost is worth the service anymore, simply do not pay for the service just like any responsible adult would.

 

And seriously, the game was fine without the slot machines, bioware put them in for a bit to see how they're gonna go and it clearly did not yeld the desirable results so they were altered. Suddenly everyone feels like they're entitled to something they only had for a few moments.

 

Geez. Like a bunch of children. Had a taste of getting something with zero effort and can't let go.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Iffyluse

[EnkiduNineEight]

I ran the numbers, it only takes 3 hrs and 550K to get a certificate. 550K would get you maybe 3 packs, and you'd have a lot lower chance to get a Cert. Why *should* it be cheaper or easier to get certs?

 

I actually ran the numbers, you just added the time element. In that other discussion as well I have indicated that I am not completely opposed to dropping the rate of certificate drops in my suggestion'/hypothetical 'fixed' slot machine. But you ask a question here that seems to indicate that you will make one argument and then abandon that argument in favour of supporting the one you prefer despite their inherent opposition.

 

You ask, 'Why should it be cheaper or easier to get certs?'

 

Well, because you are engaging with a machine whose entire function is to produce only a certain number of things. You are directly paying for the use of the machine to attempt to get those things. It seems reasonable to others (not saying I wholly agree) that with the limited list of things that can be produced the frequency of one of those things can be increased.

 

 

You're not supposed to take time out of the game to play a slot machine, it's not a job, it's not supposed to be profitable. Yeah, I wish there were more "wins" besides rep (not valuable wins, just wins). But if you play it while waiting for queues, talking with friends/guildies, reading chat, or reading the forums, you can get the odd cert or mat.

 

I do not necessarily agree on what you are 'supposed' to do in the game. The game has systems that are set up and that the majority of people use as they feel this is the intention of the game, but in all fairness the game is a MMO RPG and the RPG element says that the game is about what you want to make of it. So lets not make arguments about how you are 'supposed' to play the game.

 

You know I completely agree that the machine is not supposed to be profitable, so there is no argument there. I think most people will agree it should not be profitable. The difference here is the extent at which is should not be profitable.

 

Going back to your quote though that I took issue with:

I ran the numbers, it only takes 3 hrs and 550K to get a certificate. 550K would get you maybe 3 packs, and you'd have a lot lower chance to get a Cert. Why *should* it be cheaper or easier to get certs?

 

So lets use another of your arguments, a 'Pack' should be considered to hold the value of the most money it might represent, not its selling price, correct? This is your argument against certificates and their drop rate increase from the present incarnation of the slot machine

 

Of those three packs they purchase, it is possible they receive 3 Savannah Vorantikus each valued at multiple millions of credits. (I got mine at 8million, after 6 hypercrates failed to drop one for me, after I purchased mine they were going for 15-20 million for awhile) They will receive other items as well, all of which that have value and even if only one of the three packs contains something worthwhile, they have an opportunity to turn their 550,000 credit purchase into something worth more than 550,000 credits. So even not getting the certs, they can buy more crates, etc until they perhaps get their certs.

 

I get that a few of the items on the Reputation vendor have 'high' value if they were purchased 'unbound' but they can't be so there is no conversion of a cosmetic item into credits from certificates. Additionally, even though I had to purchase some of my Revan outfit parts to get a complete set while selling duplicates of said parts along the way, a reduction in the value of items from a long ago Cartel Pack is not game breaking nor does it truly diminish the experience of anyone who may have received these items prior. People could ALWAYS buy them with cartel certificates. So that argument is diminished somewhat significantly from the existence of certificates at all.

 

Mostly, I am in agreement that the cartel certificates are a bit too common with the original slot machine. I already had a stack after having also spent several stacks worth prior to the slot machine and now after the slot machine and what was very casual use (It felt dirty so I resisted the urge to sit and become a slot machine monkey to fully take advantage of it before it was inevitably nerfed) allowed me to add another two stacks of Cartel Market Certs in addition to the new certs I spent and used for various things I had been holding off on because I really didn't need them and so I was saving my certs for things I thought might be more desirable in the future.

 

I am also in agreement though that their rate of return now is essentially far too low. The slot machines, as they exist now, are essentially reputation vendors and once you max the reputation there is no reason to use the machine at all, and I think that is the real issue here, they missed a good opportunity to introduce a new/fun mechanic that is part of what is 'supposed' to be done while you are enjoying the game.. EG, you would have another interact-able object to enhance your role play.

 

Slots should be a net negative for your credits. I think most all of us will agree on this.

 

We're arguing now about the extent at which it should be.

 

I do not find three hours to be a reasonable amount of time to perform the same activity before a certificate drops.

I also found that getting up to 13 (most I got with a two stack drop of tokens) in 20-30 minutes was not reasonable either. It was far too much IMO.

 

If anything, as a purchaser of hypercrates and as a completionist I am more upset about the speed and pitiful 'price' at which people can now get a level of reputation that took me much much longer and cost me much much more than I am concerned about people being able to use certs to buy something from a vendor. Heck, swap the certs drop rate and the reputation drop rate so that it takes far longer to get your reputation to a level where you could even spend those certs on something desirable. (Not a serious suggestion, just saying)

Edited February 1, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[Max_Killjoy]

I still can't believe that some people honestly think that Bioawre owes them something. This is the definition of gamer entitlement.

 

It is a simple exchange of goods and services, in this case a monthly subscribtion. You pay for one month, you get to play the game for one month with sub benefits. The deal for that month ends there, the fact that you played for a month does not give you any entitlements for anything in the coming months. You don't earn karma or buddy points with bioware just because you have spent an X amount of money on the game, because the money you spent already got the services provided to you for that money. They do not stack up for the future. If you do not believe that the cost is worth the service anymore, simply do not pay for the service just like any responsible adult would.

 

And seriously, the game was fine without the slot machines, bioware put them in for a bit to see how they're gonna go and it clearly did not yeld the desirable results so they were altered. Suddenly everyone feels like they're entitled to something they only had for a few moments.

 

Geez. Like a bunch of children. Had a taste of getting something with zero effort and can't let go.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

[LordArtemis]

The original drop rates for the slot machine killed the market for every single crafting material purchasable with jawa scrap.

 

WHICH MEANS IT WAS BROKEN. It should never have dropped mats in the first place.

 

It was heavily broken originally. Denying that just makes you look like a greedy fool, which is probably right on the money.

 

Wow. And you say you are disappointed. You either have EXACTLY the same definition of broken that I do there sparky or you have the shortest memory in human history.

Keep up.

Edited February 1, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Iffyluse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

 

In what way does it apply here?

[eartharioch]

I actually ran the numbers, you just added the time element. In that other discussion as well I have indicated that I am not completely opposed to dropping the rate of certificate drops in my suggestion'/hypothetical 'fixed' slot machine. But you ask a question here that seems to indicate that you will make one argument and then abandon that argument in favour of supporting the one you prefer despite their inherent opposition.

 

You ask, 'Why should it be cheaper or easier to get certs?'

 

The time element is important. I'm not abandoning any arguments or making a new one, I was asking you a question.

 

Prior to the slot machine, the only way to get Certificates was to open packs, which had to be purchased (originally) by CC. Due to that limitation, when sold for credits, packs usually go for more than 175K (on my server), and have a low drop rate (less than 1 in 3, at least). Prior to the slot machine, stuff that could be bought with Certs sold for roughly the cost of a pack, and the certs could also be used to buy (without the ability to resell) many items that would cost millions of credits on the GTN.

 

So, why would you expect an in-game item that you costs 750 credits per use to be a better way of getting Certs? I'm just curious.

 

I do not necessarily agree on what you are 'supposed' to do in the game. The game has systems that are set up and that the majority of people use as they feel this is the intention of the game, but in all fairness the game is a MMO RPG and the RPG element says that the game is about what you want to make of it. So lets not make arguments about how you are 'supposed' to play the game.

 

I didn't say what you *are* supposed to do, I said [one thing that] you aren't supposed to do. I guess if your idea of playing a game is repeatedly right-clicking your mouse on an "I win" button until you win, you would disagree with me. However, you would apparently be disagreeing with me, a lot of other people, and the devs as well, so you might want to find a game more suited to your play style.

 

So lets use another of your arguments, a 'Pack' should be considered to hold the value of the most money it might represent, not its selling price, correct? This is your argument against certificates and their drop rate increase from the present incarnation of the slot machine

 

Of those three packs they purchase, it is possible they receive 3 Savannah Vorantikus each valued at multiple millions of credits. (I got mine at 8million, after 6 hypercrates failed to drop one for me, after I purchased mine they were going for 15-20 million for awhile) They will receive other items as well, all of which that have value and even if only one of the three packs contains something worthwhile, they have an opportunity to turn their 550,000 credit purchase into something worth more than 550,000 credits. So even not getting the certs, they can buy more crates, etc until they perhaps get their certs.

 

1) I'm talking about "vendor prices" -- ones with a dev-fixed price and infinite supply. The only "vendor" for packs is the CM, and it takes CC, not credits. If you want to spend hours buying packs with CC (or even bot it), BW probably wouldn't care as long as the money clears. Regardless of where you stand on the pay-to-win argument, this mechanism is part of the game, and beyond the scope of this discussion. The GTN isn't a vendor, and while many items may usually be available, the supply isn't infinite, and players set the prices, not the devs.

 

2) Even if you do want to discuss the GTN as a vendor, you aren't doing the math right. I said that you should consider the highest *expected* value, not the highest *maximum* value. The expected value is the "drop rate" * "value". So you would multiply 8M by the drop rate -- I have no clue what it is, but you got 0 in 144 crates, so I'm guessing it's pretty low. At 1 in 144, you'd have a .69% chance (0.0069), so the expected value of a Vorantikus would be about 56K credits.

 

But players choose the GTN pack prices, so whether or not the expected value of the pack's is greater or less than price is irrelevant because it's a single transaction not guaranteed to be repeatable at any frequency.

 

I am also in agreement though that their rate of return now is essentially far too low. The slot machines, as they exist now, are essentially reputation vendors and once you max the reputation there is no reason to use the machine at all, and I think that is the real issue here, they missed a good opportunity to introduce a new/fun mechanic that is part of what is 'supposed' to be done while you are enjoying the game.. EG, you would have another interact-able object to enhance your role play.

 

You agree with *some other people* that the rate is far too low. That's ok, there's an easy solution -- don't pays your money and don't takes your chances I do agree that the machine had a lot of potential to enhance the game -- at least for people wanting to run or play in casinos and have actual people around them instead of NPCs. I do agree that current drop rates are too low to take advantage of that potential. I disagree that increasing the Cert rate is the best solution -- Certs have too high of a value to have a high enough drop rate to make up the bulk of wins.

 

Right now, we have:

o BoP Walker

o Certs

o JJ (purple)

o JJ (blue)

o JJ (green)

o Rep (various)

 

The problem with the machine isn't the drop rates, it's the drop table contents. The rep loses utility (can only be vendored after the cap is hit), and the purple JJ, certs, and walker are too valuable to justify a high drop rate. That leaves the green and blue JJ, which still have pretty low drop rates.

 

Basically, there isn't really anything in the drop table that has a low enough value to have a high drop rate other than the rep, and since that can only be sold to a vendor after hitting cap, it doesn't really feel like a win. While mats aren't that interesting, at least they *can* be used for something other than just reducing the cost to win something else.

 

Slots should be a net negative for your credits. I think most all of us will agree on this.

 

We're arguing now about the extent at which it should be.

 

I do not find three hours to be a reasonable amount of time to perform the same activity before a certificate drops.

I also found that getting up to 13 (most I got with a two stack drop of tokens) in 20-30 minutes was not reasonable either. It was far too much IMO.

 

Three hours solid playing a machine would be pretty boring, I agree. So if you really want a cert, buy a few packs (the drop rate isn't that bad) or a hypercrate. It will cost more, but only you know the value of your time. OTOH, if you play a few minutes in between queues, while reading forums, etc., and not at once, it won't feel like a job. If you're in a guild (or have a group waiting for more members), invite people to your stronghold or guildship casino and play while figuring out what to do.

 

If anything, as a purchaser of hypercrates and as a completionist I am more upset about the speed and pitiful 'price' at which people can now get a level of reputation that took me much much longer and cost me much much more than I am concerned about people being able to use certs to buy something from a vendor. Heck, swap the certs drop rate and the reputation drop rate so that it takes far longer to get your reputation to a level where you could even spend those certs on something desirable. (Not a serious suggestion, just saying)

 

As someone who doesn't like buying in-game stuff with cash and had slowly (buying old packs off GTN) reached Champion before the machine, I understand that point of view. That said, it is a two-year old reputation, and I hope BW doesn't give out reps younger than that. It's kind of like being upset that people can clear level 50 NiMs now that the level cap is 60. If you cleared it at 50, you had a long time to sport your mounts and special gear (I didn't get the purple hat until level 55).

 

IMO the way it is now is best -- in order to *use* the rep, you need certs, but certs can be used with any rep. This encourages people to get the certs "the old fashioned way" -- buying packs from the CM or GTN.

Edited February 1, 2015 by eartharioch

[LordArtemis]

I do not agree that certs is one of the main selling points of packs. The possibility to get rare drops is the largest selling point IMO, followed by the actual items advertised as part of the pack drop set, and THEN certs and mats as very last in that list.

 

IMO certs and mats are just consolation prizes...if you do not get what you wanted, at least you get certs and/or mats and rep tokens.

 

Mats should NOT drop in packs IMO. They should have NEVER been added to the slot machine in the first place, and need to be removed entirely in my view.

[eartharioch]

I do not agree that certs is one of the main selling points of packs. The possibility to get rare drops is the largest selling point IMO, followed by the actual items advertised as part of the pack drop set, and THEN certs and mats as very last in that list.

 

IMO certs and mats are just consolation prizes...if you do not get what you wanted, at least you get certs and/or mats and rep tokens.

 

Mats should NOT drop in packs IMO. They should have NEVER been added to the slot machine in the first place, and need to be removed entirely in my view.

 

In general, you get six items per pack:

2 Rares

1 Rep item

1 Mat

1 Companion Gift

1 Boost

 

Obviously the rares are the big draw, but don't pretend that Cartel Reputation and Certs are on the same level as mats, gifts, and boosts. In addition to having some very rare and desirable items on the vendors, there are some that can *only* be bought there, and some of them need certs.

[LordArtemis]

In general, you get six items per pack:

2 Rares

1 Rep item

1 Mat

1 Companion Gift

1 Boost

 

Obviously the rares are the big draw, but don't pretend that Cartel Reputation and Certs are on the same level as mats, gifts, and boosts. In addition to having some very rare and desirable items on the vendors, there are some that can *only* be bought there, and some of them need certs.

 

Fair enough, it is just how I see it of course. And I forgot a few items there it seems. Yes, I will concede that embargoed items do have appeal. I just don't think that folks are motivated to buy packs to get access to those items...it is a bonus, not a driving sales point IMO.

[eartharioch]

Fair enough, it is just how I see it of course. And I forgot a few items there it seems. Yes, I will concede that embargoed items do have appeal. I just don't think that folks are motivated to buy packs to get access to those items...it is a bonus, not a driving sales point IMO.

 

Well, if they weren't that desirable, we wouldn't have five millions threads full of people screaming "Free The Certs"

 

I started buying packs (off the GTN) once the peasants on my server started paying proper tribute to me, their local Mat Baron*, and I was most definitely interested in the certificates and rep. I could have just bought the items I wanted directly, but the Rep and Certs, which were only available in the packs, were a significant factor in the choice between direct purchase and gamble. Whereas, I consider the mats, gifts, and boosts as just offsets to the price of the pack.

 

FYI, I had about 80 saved (pre slot machine) and used them very sparingly, since they were so hard to get. I almost doubled my certs during Machine Madness Week. I wouldn't mind a higher drop rate from a selfish perspective, but they can't really go much higher before people would be willing to farm it just for the certs.

[idnewton]

You're not supposed to take time out of the game to play a slot machine

 

That's right. The Slot Machine was added but you're never supposed to actually play it, so Bioware was surprised when people used something they put into their game, so they had to change the drop rate levels to compensate for the unexpected use of the item they purposefully put into the game.

 

 

You can't be serious.

[mogorsmith]

That's right. The Slot Machine was added but you're never supposed to actually play it, so Bioware was surprised when people used something they put into their game, so they had to change the drop rate levels to compensate for the unexpected use of the item they purposefully put into the game.

 

 

You can't be serious.

 

They weren't expecting the obessive level of play that some folks went too. As the item at the intial rate's wasnt broken with a few minutes here and there. But the item over a longer period of time was exceedingly destructive to gameplay. Part of the issue is that there wasnt really a way to find this on the PTS per say.

[idnewton]

That's not my point. My point is, don't ever say "players aren't expected to use an item added into the game".

 

It makes you look like a complete numbskull.