The Contraband Slot Machine

[XiamaraSimi]

There are a few more problems with the slot machine IF it was to return as it was, so that is how I will look at it...in it's prior state...

 

The problem was threefold.

 

1) No need to fix crew missions and gathering if you can just gather all the mats you need from the machine, conquest, packs.

2) The machine had a return rate over time much higher than any other method, other than direct purchase of mats of course. This was due to a short pull time and reasonable win rate.

3) There is little in place to prevent abuse. Can be easily stacked up to three machines at once, macro use works, etc.

So, with that, any restriction to the amount of coins that can be purchased or used, as well as a restriction to ONE PULL AT A TIME (another pull would cancel the prior pull) and removing the anti-afk flag (treat it like the GTN) would remove a good portion of the ability to "game" the device.

 

Also a pop up for you to accept your winnings (like you already have to do with crewskill mission returns) would help with botting as well since it would interupt the "just keep clicking this spot til your inventory is full" aspect that I'm assuming is how said macro/botting was accomplished?

[EnkiduNineEight]

The limiting spin idea is brilliant!

 

 

I disagree.

 

Limiting the spin idea limits the abuse of the market to those people who were already in a position to/mindset of, abusing the market.

 

It acts as an artificial limiter on people who were already using the 'toy' with its intent. While those who were going to abuse it, would still be allowed to abuse it because the game is free and access is easy so just make any number of free accounts and make the characters and have them go spin the wheels.

 

You could limit it then to characters of X level or higher, blah blah blah but essentially what you keep doing is putting in place rules to prevent someone who wasn't abusing something anyway fromabusing it and those who were abusing it will find ways around the abuse, so you constantly have to play cat and mouse to keep things in check.

 

Best to create a rational system that is harder to abuse in the first place.

[LordArtemis]

Also a pop up for you to accept your winnings (like you already have to do with crewskill mission returns) would help with botting as well since it would interupt the "just keep clicking this spot til your inventory is full" aspect that I'm assuming is how said macro/botting was accomplished?

 

Thats a pretty good idea, but wouldn't there be a way to spam enter to accept any boxes that pop up?

[XiamaraSimi]

Thats a pretty good idea, but wouldn't there be a way to spam enter to accept any boxes that pop up?

 

If nothing else it would hopefully dusrupt anything that made it so if they positioned the mouse cursor over the machine, the pop up would not be clickable since they wouldnt be "afked" in the right spot to click said pop up.

 

As End pointed out in his thread when I suggested it there, you can only have so many pending rewards so it would only let so many pile up if they somehow bypassed the pop up so it "minimized" like rewards do now if we go into combat or the like.

Edited January 26, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[Khryn]

I propose they return the drop rates to what it was.

 

Then cap it at 10 spins a day, legacy locked.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Khryn

[LordArtemis]

If nothing else it would hopefully dusrupt anything that made it so if they positioned the mouse cursor over the machine, the pop up would not be clickable since they wouldnt be "afked" in the right spot to click said pop up.

 

As End pointed out in his thread when I suggested it there, you can only have so many pending rewards so it would only let so many pile up if they somehow bypassed the pop up so it "minimized" like rewards do now if we go into combat or the like.

 

Interesting.

 

Now, if they go AFK they will get logged out even if they are running a macro, right? (assuming that the anti-AFK mechanism in place is removed)

[Vhaegrant]

I disagree.

 

Limiting the spin idea limits the abuse of the market to those people who were already in a position to/mindset of, abusing the market.

 

It acts as an artificial limiter on people who were already using the 'toy' with its intent. While those who were going to abuse it, would still be allowed to abuse it because the game is free and access is easy so just make any number of free accounts and make the characters and have them go spin the wheels.

 

You could limit it then to characters of X level or higher, blah blah blah but essentially what you keep doing is putting in place rules to prevent someone who wasn't abusing something anyway fromabusing it and those who were abusing it will find ways around the abuse, so you constantly have to play cat and mouse to keep things in check.

 

Best to create a rational system that is harder to abuse in the first place.

 

The trouble is there is no rational system that can be balanced against those with the desire to sit and click for hours at a time (with or without a macro doing the heavy lifting).

 

You would have to pretty dedicated to go not just between characters on a legacy but to log out and re-enter on a different account. Not to mention the associated costs of tokens and transferring the materials, I know the mail limitations are fairly prohibitive on Free to Play.

 

Bearing in mind the sort of drop rates I listed you would struggle to get the sort of return on materials. Remember every stack is costing you, the slot machine doesn't add credits into the economy, what it does is redistribute the credits between sellers and buyers. I suspect the massive drop of prices wasn't from the materials that the Slot Machines produced but rather the Sellers who had hoarded materials trying to offload it before the market was saturated.

 

I value the cartel certificate higher (it's of no use to market sellers beyond the limited Personnel decorations), it needs to be considered to have some rarity otherwise you completely devalue the point of having it in the first place. However the current state of affairs is ridiculous, prior to nerf I had 15 Certificates drop frop 500 slot-chips, after zero, nadda not a one. In fact the only non-reputation item I won was a single green jawa token.

 

I didn't think to list the potential gain/loss break down in my original post:

 

200 slot-chips at 1,000 credits each = 200,000 credit outlay

 

• 30.49% (0.3049) Loss
  
• 25% (0.25) Green Reputation Token ~50@500cr = 25,000cr
  
• 10% (0.1) Blue Reputation Token ~20@1,000cr = 20,000cr
  
• 4% (0.04) Purple Reputation Token ~8@2,500cr = 20,000cr
  
• 20% (0.2) Green Jawa Material ~40
  
• 8% (0.08) Blue Jawa Material ~16
  
• 2% (0.02) Purple Jawa Material ~4
  
• 0.5% (0.005) Cartel Certificate ~1
  
• 0.01% (0.0001) Faction Mount ~small chance of getting a fun mount
  

 

The reputation tokens only have inherent value until the reputation for that vendor is maxed out to Legendary, after that they only offset the initial cost of the slot-chips. I suspect the reputation is not the primary consideration for balance but rather the cartel certificates and purple jawa tokens.

 

Initial outlay of 200,000cr less the redeemed reputation tokens (65,000cr) = 135,000cr loss

Rewards:

40 Green Jawa Material

16 Blue Jawa Material

4 Purple Jawa Material

1 Cartel Certificate

Very remote chance of Faction Mount

 

I suspect a payout of 135,000cr may be deemed too high, but personally I feel the Cartel Certificate should hold a reasonably high value, after all unless you are paying cartel coins (cash) for the cartel packs each costs on average in excess of 350,000cr on the GTN.

 

But, these are only suggested values, the main point I am trying to make is that the slot machines need to have an element of restricted use. This allows the drop rate to be high enough to be interesting, but not open to easy exploitation.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[EnkiduNineEight]

But limiting spins won't limit those people it is designed to limit. So its an extraneous rule with no benefit/does not solve the problem it is designed to solve while creating a limitation on players that is seen as an undue restriction. Edited January 26, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[Vhaegrant]

Also a pop up for you to accept your winnings (like you already have to do with crewskill mission returns) would help with botting as well since it would interupt the "just keep clicking this spot til your inventory is full" aspect that I'm assuming is how said macro/botting was accomplished?

 

I've been thinking about how to get around macros. I thought something along the lines of clicking once to start playing the slot machines. But then a 'click box' is generated a slight distance away from the mouse pointer in a random direction everytime you want to use a slot-chip. When you want to stop playing you move away from the machine.

 

At the moment they have code that can spawn a click box directly at the cursors location.

 

This would require a small amount of hand eye co-ordination, but hopefully random enough to foil basic macros.

[Vhaegrant]

But limiting spins won't limit those people it is designed to limit. So its an extraneous rule with no benefit/does not solve the problem it is designed to solve.

 

Pretty much the same argument could be levelled at the inclusion of all the other activity limits in the game.

Just run Dailies/Weeklies on Alts and transfer the credits to a main.

Just run OPs on alts, pop the mods from the item drops into legacy armour and transfer to main.

The idea is not to completely prevent but to place enough of a hurdle in the way that casual exploiters would find it more hassle than it's worth.

 

Without setting a spin limit of any sort you just leave the slots open to abuse from players running macros, and therefore have to balance the drop rate accordingly. Which I fear is the position taken considering the lamentable drop rate.

[EnkiduNineEight]

Pretty much the same argument could be levelled at the inclusion of all the other activity limits in the game.

Just run Dailies/Weeklies on Alts and transfer the credits to a main.

Just run OPs on alts, pop the mods from the item drops into legacy armour and transfer to main.

The idea is not to completely prevent but to place enough of a hurdle in the way that casual exploiters would find it more hassle than it's worth.

 

Without setting a spin limit of any sort you just leave the slots open to abuse from players running macros, and therefore have to balance the drop rate accordingly. Which I fear is the position taken considering the lamentable drop rate.

 

 

Or set 'invisible' rules to limit slot machine production.

 

There are multiple ways to detectmacros. Additionally, if an account has been logged on for a specified period of time (unkown to users) doing a single activity, macroing can be suspect and the account 'connectivity' drop (admin logout) If account logs back in immediately and resumes same said activity. warnings can be issued, TOS violations explained, accounts docked items, funds, or deleted/banned.

 

I err on the side that its much better to police intelligently than artificially limit. The perception of the 'policed' is much better.

 

Its just a philosophical difference in viewing how to limit poor behaviours. I prefer allow and punish abuse, you prefer limit and never have to punish. My experience of the human species is that the limits are generally found to be lacking and without a punishment precedent correcting the behavior at a later time much more difficult and you have already been encouraging limitation circumvention.

 

Besides, I think if a player wants to go on a in game gambling bender and play their character 24 hours straight at the slots, let em. If they do it beyond the limits of human endurance, punish them for either sharing an account or using macros or doing any number of TOS prohibited activities.

 

If the limits are reasonable on the rates of return, there should be no potential damage as we do not limit running crafting skills 24x7 to gather mats either.

[Draqsko]

But limiting spins won't limit those people it is designed to limit. So its an extraneous rule with no benefit/does not solve the problem it is designed to solve while creating a limitation on players that is seen as an undue restriction.

 

I agree with this and a far better way to restrict people who are intent to abuse the slot machine for mats would be to create an economic disincentive.

 

I think your original numbers proposal is a bit too high. I think 3-4 times the cost to gather would be enough of a deterent, so 18-24k range in the case of doonium since that's the worst case scenario for mat gathering. If the cost of Jawa Junk was 18k to obtain with the machine, most of the mats would be 75-80% cheaper to obtain via crew missions, only doonium would be 66% cheaper and that's still a huge economic disincentive. If it was 24k, all the mats would be 75-85% cheaper to obtain with crew missions.

 

33k is just a little too close to what the mats are trading at on the GTN, you want the slot machine to arrest GTN prices not equal them and not cause them to completely crash. In the long term, GTN prices will fall to the level the slots play at, or a little under them so that price is where you will lock in the long term value of said mats.

 

The only thing broken about the original machine was that it set the value of purple mats BELOW the cost of running crew missions to obtain them. If you set that value HIGHER, it fixes the problem. Botters can clickfest on the slots all the they want, crew mission runners will be more advantaged on the GTN and can sell their mats at under the cost that botters could obtain theirs. Botters would lose money hand over fist.

[Vhaegrant]

Or set 'invisible' rules to limit slot machine production.

 

There are multiple ways to detectmacros. Additionally, if an account has been logged on for a specified period of time (unkown to users) doing a single activity, macroing can be suspect and the account 'connectivity' drop (admin logout) If account logs back in immediately and resumes same said activity. warnings can be issued, TOS violations explained, accounts docked items, funds, or deleted/banned.

 

I err on the side that its much better to police intelligently than artificially limit. The perception of the 'policed' is much better.

 

Its just a philosophical difference in viewing how to limit poor behaviours. I prefer allow and punish abuse, you prefer limit and never have to punish. My experience of the human species is that the limits are generally found to be lacking and without a punishment precedent correcting the behavior at a later time much more difficult and you have already been encouraging limitation circumvention.

 

Besides, I think if a player wants to go on a in game gambling bender and play their character 24 hours straight at the slots, let em. If they do it beyond the limits of human endurance, punish them for either sharing an account or using macros or doing any number of TOS prohibited activities.

 

If the limits are reasonable on the rates of return, there should be no potential damage as we do not limit running crafting skills 24x7 to gather mats either.

 

The trouble is all of your suggestions place more of a workload on the customer services. Even if you have a semi-automated system it is going to be fallible and given the number of players I suspect you would see numerous complaints, warranted or otherwise, crop up on the Customer service forum.

 

Using your reasoning I could go onto ask for dailies and weekly limitations to be removed. Afterall if I want to run the same mission over and over again why should I be forced to log between characters and/or accounts.

 

The reason MMOs have activity limits is to try and place some degree of control over how quickly credits and items can be introduced into the economy.

 

Crafting skills have an inherent limit on the number of viable missions that are generated at a time and the time it takes to run the mission. Very few players are in a position to sit there and send crew members out everytime. That's part of the issue as to why purple mats were relatively hard to come by in the first place.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[EnkiduNineEight]

The trouble is all of your suggestions place more of a workload on the customer services. Even if you have a semi-automated system it is going to be fallible and given the number of players I suspect you would see numerous complaints, warranted or otherwise, crop up on the Customer service forum.

 

Using your reasoning I could go onto ask for dailies and weekly limitations to be removed. Afterall if I want to run the same mission over and over again why should I be forced to log between characters and/or accounts.

 

The reason MMOs have activity limits is to try and place some degree of control over how quickly credits and items can be introduced into the economy.

 

Crafting skills have an inherent limit on the number of viable missions that are generated at a time and the time it takes to run the mission. Very few players are in a position to sit there and send crew members out everytime. That's part of the issue as to why purple mats were relatively hard to come by in the first place.

 

What a Daily/Weekly limitation intends to limit is different than what a restricted number of uses would have. Thesre are not apples to apples comparisons.

 

The point is, with a system that is reasonable/reational from the start, you shouln;t even have to worry about the limitations because there is no recognizable advantage to the systems repetition.

 

For example:

 

If the repetition of pulling a slot lever fills up my bank with materials that would have cost me 1/6th or more the cost from running crew missions, then I am already finsiding a limitation to my desire to run this mission repeatedly. Crafters/Motivated gatherers already have their missions timed and multiple methods of logging in to ensure they get on, take their rewards and resend their companiosn out to gether more.

 

So the limitation is not on allowing players to gather materials, that's unnecessary as it already exists. For gathering materials the limitation is the time between mission queueing. With proposed slots the limitation would be on the cost for the materials returned.

 

Limiting the number of pulls ends up just being an arbitrary restriction that can easily be circumvented and casts the player as 'villan'.

[Vhaegrant]

What a Daily/Weekly limitation intends to limit is different than what a restricted number of uses would have. Thesre are not apples to apples comparisons.

 

The point is, with a system that is reasonable/reational from the start, you shouln;t even have to worry about the limitations because there is no recognizable advantage to the systems repetition.

 

For example:

 

If the repetition of pulling a slot lever fills up my bank with materials that would have cost me 1/6th or more the cost from running crew missions, then I am already finsiding a limitation to my desire to run this mission repeatedly. Crafters/Motivated gatherers already have their missions timed and multiple methods of logging in to ensure they get on, take their rewards and resend their companiosn out to gether more.

 

So the limitation is not on allowing players to gather materials, that's unnecessary as it already exists. For gathering materials the limitation is the time between mission queueing. With proposed slots the limitation would be on the cost for the materials returned.

 

Limiting the number of pulls ends up just being an arbitrary restriction that can easily be circumvented and casts the player as 'villan'.

 

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

If you don't limit the number of spins you have to set the drop rate so low no normal player would want to use it.

[EnkiduNineEight]

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

If you don't limit the number of spins you have to set the drop rate so low no normal player would want to use it.

 

Its not a function of drop rate by itself, its a function of the cost to the player for that drop rate.

 

If I can get, reliably, materials for 3,500 coins spent, is it economically viable for me to get the same materials for 35,000 coins spent if I am getting them faster? Especially when with the former method you can do this while enjoying other activities and in the latter method you have to stand in one place and click a button at the right times and to 'exploit' this you would have to Macro, which is detectable and is against the TOS and could result in ALL gains being purged.

 

Whoever does the slower but 10 times cheaper method is going to be able to clean your clock in any sort of attempt to corner the market via supply.

 

If you arbitrage and buy up supply to sell at a higher cost then listed (but still profitable cost) players can easily get around you themselves with short period of time doing said repetitive activity.

 

There becomes a significant limiting factor to pursuing the activity as a macro because you're just not going to see beneficial results. Cost per material too high, rate of return not spectacular. Activity to generate the materials could result in ban, suspension, loss of all earnings/stored materials, etc.

 

There was a TOTAL inducement to macro version 1.0 of the slots. Public statement indicating it was OK to use the slots until they were reviewed/adjusted, rate of return that made clicking the button 'profitable' as long as you savvy-ly dealt out your returns from the Cartel Certs. Meant pure gravy, you were getting loads and loads of materials at a negative cost (eg you were getting paid to fill your bank with stuff).

 

Which is why in my suggestion thread I retained the 'free spin/push' reward because this increased the time that must be spent performing the activity to realize a return in addition to the cost per material returned being higher than your suggestion (on crafting mat, your certs are more expensive... but I would favour making the certs not convertible to currency anyway)

[LordArtemis]

I would have preferred to see ANYTHING purchased with the machine rewards bound.

[EnkiduNineEight]

I would have preferred to see ANYTHING purchased with the machine rewards bound.

 

Making items purchased with a currency that can stack with another version of the same currency, but with different rules is needlessly arcane and complex.

 

Better to just fix the few items that are not bound on pickup/purchase with the currency and update the 'donation' system to accept bound but not 'opened' decorations.

[RocketRabbit]

All 142 pages of this discussion are pointless if BW doesn't even acknowledge their blunder. It's 4:30 PM, Pacific, and not a peep from Musco...

[lokimogor]

All 142 pages of this discussion are pointless if BW doesn't even acknowledge their blunder. It's 4:30 PM, Pacific, and not a peep from Musco...

 

It's not going to happen, Bioware has stated their side and its a done deal. At this point all that the 20-40 forum nazi have done is forced them into a corner where they bow down and let the forums run the game or they enrage you lot and actually have a game worth playing. The slot machine is a pay to win item in its un-nerfed state. I know a lot of folks myself included who would cease to sub if the cartel market become that blantantly pay to win

[Heat-Wave]

It's not going to happen, Bioware has stated their side and its a done deal. At this point all that the 20-40 forum nazi have done is forced them into a corner where they bow down and let the forums run the game or they enrage you lot and actually have a game worth playing. The slot machine is a pay to win item in its un-nerfed state. I know a lot of folks myself included who would cease to sub if the cartel market become that blantantly pay to win

 

You mean a done deal the way training costs were a done deal? The way ultimates dropped from lvl 55 SM ops were a done deal?

 

Nothing is ever a done deal... it can all be changed...

[Reno_Tarshil]

You mean a done deal the way training costs were a done deal? The way ultimates dropped from lvl 55 SM ops were a done deal?

 

Nothing is ever a done deal... it can all be changed...

 

[lokimogor]

Whatever, the fact is that your behavior is remarkable similiar to terrorists. My final words on the slot machine.

[Vhaegrant]

Its not a function of drop rate by itself, its a function of the cost to the player for that drop rate.

I understand that, but the slot machine still has to be a desirable item if it is going to help shift future cartel packs. If you are just running at a loss on it all the time it's not a desirable item. I feel my drop rates are a little out and the slot-chip a little over priced but when suggesting a compromise I tend to err on the side of caution.

If the only way you can run the slot machine is to run it at a loss who would play that game? The reason for introducing it becomes self defeating.

If I can get, reliably, materials for 3,500 coins spent, is it economically viable for me to get the same materials for 35,000 coins spent if I am getting them faster? Especially when with the former method you can do this while enjoying other activities and in the latter method you have to stand in one place and click a button at the right times and to 'exploit' this you would have to Macro, which is detectable and is against the TOS and could result in ALL gains being purged.

I'd really like to see where you reliably get a grade 11 purple material for 3,500. I can't find the thread that analysed crew mission returns at the moment but I seem to remember it was around double that. And with the joys of RNG you could see those purple mats drop after the first hour or you may hit a bad streak and go 5-8 missions before seeing a return (and that's if you get your companion up to full affection for the 20% crit rate).

I'm reluctant to talk in detail about Macros bearing in mind how sensitive BW tend to be on the subject and how bizarre some of their decisions are on the matter.

Whoever does the slower but 10 times cheaper method is going to be able to clean your clock in any sort of attempt to corner the market via supply.

For me this isn't a matter of cornering a market, I just wanted a way of getting access to a few purple materials for self crafting. The guild I'm in, while friendly and a great bunch of folks has eased off the Conquest objectives (I think they hit it hard on the first cycle and most have the Galactic Conquorer title now). I find the rate of return from crew missions frustratingly low, especially given the expanded range of items to craft for an end set that weren't in the game at launch when the crew mission crit rates were set. And it really goes against the grain to pay over inflated rates on the GTN, either for the materials or the finished item.

If you arbitrage and buy up supply to sell at a higher cost then listed (but still profitable cost) players can easily get around you themselves with short period of time doing said repetitive activity.

 

There becomes a significant limiting factor to pursuing the activity as a macro because you're just not going to see beneficial results. Cost per material too high, rate of return not spectacular. Activity to generate the materials could result in ban, suspension, loss of all earnings/stored materials, etc.

Again, I don't play the market. I was trying to find ways to balance the slot machine for regular use by normal players. Not leave it open to the potential of abuse by a select few.

There was a TOTAL inducement to macro version 1.0 of the slots. Public statement indicating it was OK to use the slots until they were reviewed/adjusted, rate of return that made clicking the button 'profitable' as long as you savvy-ly dealt out your returns from the Cartel Certs. Meant pure gravy, you were getting loads and loads of materials at a negative cost (eg you were getting paid to fill your bank with stuff).

No disagreement here the initial drop rates were poorly thought out. The mishandling and vagueness of communication surrounding the decision to say it wasn't an 'exploit' but a 'change' was coming only served to drive over use in those first few days (and probably leave them with overinflated usage metrics that they used to determine future balance).

Which is why in my suggestion thread I retained the 'free spin/push' reward because this increased the time that must be spent performing the activity to realize a return in addition to the cost per material returned being higher than your suggestion (on crafting mat, your certs are more expensive... but I would favour making the certs not convertible to currency anyway)

I'd rather not punish the players with a pointless time sink to try and moderate the potential abuse from those running with an excess of time on their hands or the technical savvy to set up a macro (which it won't really hamper any way).

[Vhaegrant]

It's not going to happen, Bioware has stated their side and its a done deal. At this point all that the 20-40 forum nazi have done is forced them into a corner where they bow down and let the forums run the game or they enrage you lot and actually have a game worth playing. The slot machine is a pay to win item in its un-nerfed state. I know a lot of folks myself included who would cease to sub if the cartel market become that blantantly pay to win

 

I'm struggling to find any forumites asking for the slot machine back as it was. I think if it had been trialled on the PTS BW would have seen the forumites deluge them with a flood of suggestions to drop rates. But lets be honest the current drop rates are an insult to everyone involved, both on BW's side and the players that bought the item in good faith.