The Contraband Slot Machine

[ivanhedgehog]

So you can't afford to level a toon to be your own gather or crafter? Are you saying we bought our way to success?

 

This new combat change has been out for two months and people are whining about the prices. It's called supply and demand people, it was very hard to get the mats and people willing to pay MORE get it first. Sorry, this is how the world works. It's not like everyone went out looking to "steal" your money. People with more credits can pay. When they stop paying, guess what......the prices fall. What you guys want is an instant win button for no work.

 

what you want is for bw to maintain your market dominance..tough luck..prices drop with increased supply. to bad, so sad

[Exastify]

Remember, the droprates were mined when the patch came out. Certificate drop rate is 2%.

[ivanhedgehog]

^^ 200% agree.

 

One thing the slot machines have done for sure is to ignite, and sometimes inflame, certain special interest groups. Then again.. a gentle random breeze in the afternoon is all that it takes to inflame some people.

 

Honestly, I don't see why crafters would QQ about this, nor players who purchase crafted items. The only QQ is from either people who cannot think linearly or are butthurt gatherers who can no longer control a narrow segment of the market.

 

Wait for the real QQ ----> when the pack is embargoed and there are no more slots to be had.

 

this is going to have more people crafting, participating in a rather sizable part of the game. I cant see any problem in this. anything that gets more people involved is good.

[LordArtemis]

I need to be clear about this...and this is just my opinion, which means it is worth nothing in the end of course.....

 

These are the changes I propose.

 

1) Coin cost raised to 2k per. Not a popular one I admit.

2) Increase mat return from crew skills by 50 percent across the board.

3) Increase critical chance on crew skills by 10 percent across the board.

4) Give us a reshuffle button for the display of crew skill missions.

 

Now, this would, IMO, make the payout for mats about equal with coin and time. Perhaps the machine would pump out a bit more on the high end, but certainly less on the low end. And the increase in coin price would keep the machine as an effective coin sink even with the ability to sell rep tokens.

 

One thing that folks forget is that crew missions can be run NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE DOING, including logging off. Not only that, they are the only way or the most cost efficient way to get certain schematics, crew affection items, crafting supplies, etc. So with the adjustments IMO they will have just as much appeal as the machine.

 

The machine is the best hands on way to get high end mats.

Resource gathering is still the best way to get low end mats.

Crew missions is still the best way to get mats hands free.

 

GTN is still the best way to get mats without a time investment.

 

It is actually "laziness" that will protect the resource market, because the majority of folks will still buy mats, so they are not bothered with having to generate them. Folks like to craft, they do not generally like to gather the mats needed.

 

 

Now, that said, I would be more than happy if the price for coins remained as it is now. However, I would still push strongly for the crew mission changes. It is past time that this should have been changed IMO.

 

Keep the prices for missions the same....just substantially increase the payouts, and for jeffs sake REMOVE THE FAILURE COMPONENT. That is just petty IMO.

[Andryah]

I need to be clear about this...and this is just my opinion, which means it is worth nothing in the end of course.....

 

These are the changes I propose.

 

1) Coin cost raised to 2k per. Not a popular one I admit.

2) Increase mat return from crew skills by 50 percent across the board.

3) Increase critical chance on crew skills by 10 percent across the board.

4) Give us a reshuffle button for the display of crew skill missions.

 

Now, this would, IMO, make the payout for mats about equal with coin and time. Perhaps the machine would pump out a bit more on the high end, but certainly less on the low end. And the increase in coin price would keep the machine as an effective coin sink even with the ability to sell rep tokens.

 

One thing that folks forget is that crew missions can be run NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE DOING, including logging off. Not only that, they are the only way or the most cost efficient way to get certain schematics, crew affection items, crafting supplies, etc. So with the adjustments IMO they will have just as much appeal as the machine.

 

The machine is the best hands on way to get high end mats.

Resource gathering is still the best way to get low end mats.

Crew missions is still the best way to get mats hands free.

 

GTN is still the best way to get mats without a time investment.

 

It is actually "laziness" that will protect the resource market, because the majority of folks will still buy mats, so they are not bothered with having to generate them. Folks like to craft, they do not generally like to gather the mats needed.

 

 

Now, that said, I would be more than happy if the price for coins remained as it is now. However, I would still push strongly for the crew mission changes. It is past time that this should have been changed IMO.

 

Keep the prices for missions the same....just substantially increase the payouts, and for jeffs sake REMOVE THE FAILURE COMPONENT. That is just petty IMO.

 

One side effect of raising the credit price for coins ----> it will drive more junk conversions into mats and more mats on the market. Why? Because when you quadruple the cost just to play, more players are going to try to recoup costs immediately so they can continue to play the slots.

 

I actually think that raising the coin cost, in addition to the other concerns I have expressed about it, will further distort player actions/behavior with their winnings.

 

At the current coin price, it feels about right actually in terms of risk/reward. It's just that the massive hoarded dumping on the markets with the release of L11 mats on the vendors coupled with the frenzy of playing with the new toy (the slot) is making it appear worse then it is from a sustainability perspective.

 

Drop rates of purples from crew missions.... definitely deserves a look at from the devs. That is an additional hot button for players that is distorting the discussions, IMO.

[Ilhares]

I am one of those who has almost exclusively made the credits via crafting, because I find dailies so tedious I would rather slash my wrists. The introduction of the slot machine has facilitated a crash in the costs (and thus prices) of many manufactured items, which is where I made my money.

 

Does it sting a bit? Absolutely. And I am 100% okay with this. Why? Because the slot payouts result in me being able to actually get the rare mats I need to make stuff for myself and my alts, as well as throwing some nice goods on the market, and it also reduces the price of goods to a range where *everybody* has a pratical chance of participating in the economy, not just the retarded-level-wealthy and price gougers.

 

In 3 years, there has been virtually no change to the drop rates of rare materials in lower tier missions. I used to sell them for 7k each, and this was making a nice profit. For most of the last year and half people have been pricing them in the range of 25k+.

 

I sold at a 'fair' price so that other people who weren't made of money could get some quality goods at a reasonable price. What ended up happening was the price gougers started market flipping. Buying all my stuff and jacking the prices up to retard levels. Yes, that IS standard capitalism at work. I understand that, but I don't particularly care for ***** that behave that way, because it's undermining my ability to actually /help/ the playerbase.

 

Today, some folks are selling those same enhancements for 5k. That is awesome to me. No, I'm not making money hand over fist, but it's still a benefit to the overall economy. Money is actually flowing around, goods are changing hands.

 

It's helping the crafters, it's helping the poor. The only people not deriving immense benefit are the ones who overcharged for their goods and tried to screw the economy with their greed.

 

I hope, sincerely, that they make no changes whatsoever, so it keeps things reasonable for the little guy.

[LordArtemis]

I am one of those who has almost exclusively made the credits via crafting, because I find dailies so tedious I would rather slash my wrists. The introduction of the slot machine has facilitated a crash in the costs (and thus prices) of many manufactured items, which is where I made my money.

 

Does it sting a bit? Absolutely. And I am 100% okay with this. Why? Because the slot payouts result in me being able to actually get the rare mats I need to make stuff for myself and my alts, as well as throwing some nice goods on the market, and it also reduces the price of goods to a range where *everybody* has a pratical chance of participating in the economy, not just the retarded-level-wealthy and price gougers.

 

In 3 years, there has been virtually no change to the drop rates of rare materials in lower tier missions. I used to sell them for 7k each, and this was making a nice profit. For most of the last year and half people have been pricing them in the range of 25k+.

 

I sold at a 'fair' price so that other people who weren't made of money could get some quality goods at a reasonable price. What ended up happening was the price gougers started market flipping. Buying all my stuff and jacking the prices up to retard levels. Yes, that IS standard capitalism at work. I understand that, but I don't particularly care for ***** that behave that way, because it's undermining my ability to actually /help/ the playerbase.

 

Today, some folks are selling those same enhancements for 5k. That is awesome to me. No, I'm not making money hand over fist, but it's still a benefit to the overall economy. Money is actually flowing around, goods are changing hands.

 

It's helping the crafters, it's helping the poor. The only people not deriving immense benefit are the ones who overcharged for their goods and tried to screw the economy with their greed.

 

I hope, sincerely, that they make no changes whatsoever, so it keeps things reasonable for the little guy.

 

This. Adjust. I am now selling more kits but making a larger profit because the cost of my mats are now reduced. So, with a bigger volume of sales I am making more money AND more profit.

 

As I have already said, the ones hurt the most are those that are trying to hedge against market fluctuations by controlling the availability of mats.

[LordArtemis]

One side effect of raising the credit price for coins ----> it will drive more junk conversions into mats and more mats on the market. Why? Because when you quadruple the cost just to play, more players are going to try to recoup costs immediately so they can continue to play the slots.

 

I actually think that raising the coin cost, in addition to the other concerns I have expressed about it, will further distort player actions/behavior with their winnings.

 

At the current coin price, it feels about right actually in terms of risk/reward. It's just that the massive hoarded dumping on the markets with the release of L11 mats on the vendors coupled with the frenzy of playing with the new toy (the slot) is making it appear worse then it is from a sustainability perspective.

 

Drop rates of purples from crew missions.... definitely deserves a look at from the devs. That is an additional hot button for players that is distorting the discussions, IMO.

 

A fair point. Perhaps I am a bit greedy in the coin sink department.

[Djiini]

Okay, Artemis, we get it, 2k instead of 500. Don't need to see that post every other page I look at.

[LordArtemis]

Okay, Artemis, we get it, 2k instead of 500. Don't need to see that post every other page I look at.

 

Lol, yea, sorry about that.

[Andryah]

Lol, yea, sorry about that.

 

So... you are repositioning to 1995.00 then?

[eartharioch]

There is definitely downward pressure on L11 mats at the moment. but it is in no way a crash, and I'm sorry.. but if you cannot specify what server you play on... nobody is going to take you seriously. On the three servers I play the GTN on, the downward pressure on Midlithe Crystals is pretty consistent (on average about 25-30% at the moment) and nowhere near what you are claiming.

 

Even though we disagree on a lot of things, I do try to do it politely, so maybe try to ease off a bit. If you want to know my server for a frame of reference, it's The Bastion. You could have just asked instead of implying that I wasn't being honest.

 

And we can debate the word "crash" all we want, that's why I gave numbers. To me, a sudden drop of 50%-75% in that short of a time period is a "crash". And, as I said, I'm only saying that it applies to that specific part of the market. I'm not saying it's unrecoverable, or will destroy the market or the game like many other people are, so I don't see any reason to argue over whether it was a crash or just a sudden deceleration after encountering an unexpected obstacle.

 

I don't know what your servers' original prices are, but you usually cite The Harbinger, which (from what I understand) has a much larger population, and thus likely a larger pool of crafters. From what I've read of various pricings in other threads (not just this topic), prices are usually lower on that server, which is what I'd expect from a larger pool of crafters and customers -- i.e., that, they reach a lower/steady state faster. So for servers where the prices were already lower, I'd expect the percentages to be lower (which is what you reported).

 

Nonsense. But.. spoken like a predatory market pricing player.

I prefer the term "Apex Crafter", tyvm. Although I usually only make a couple of million or so a week, so I'm probably just a Penapex Crafter.

 

The only thing the vendors do is create a different method to turn in limited quantity junk for limited quantity materials.

 

The problem is that, due to Conquest rewards and the drop rate on the slot machine, your use of the word "limited" is looser than Sony Bono's. If it were just the junk from the packs, I'd agree. Nobody would buy packs *just* for the Jawa Junk drop rate, although it would increase the expected value of opening a pack a bit, which (IMO) isn't that bad of a thing.

 

And while the Conquest rewards are more limited than the slot machine ones (10 per winning guild member per week), I was "pretty sure" people had been saving them up for a while, and that that alone would have caused a "sudden deceleration". But afterwards, 10/week per winning guild member wouldn't be that bad -- I easily got more than 10 purples a week from my gatherers. So I fully expected a sharp drop in prices followed by them gradually rising up to a stable point as people burned through their reserves and were then capped at 10/week. That said, as someone has made a lot of money selling greens and blues to Conquest players who have virtually no hope of selling what they craft for anything remotely resembling a profit (and having made a few of those things myself), I certainly won't complain that the purples they earn are harming my bottom line.

 

But just in the few minutes I've spent writing this and right-clicking on my slot machine I "earned" 12 purples spending less time and money than I would have running companion missions. With the way things are now, there is no way to say the Jawa Junk is reasonably limited.

 

IMO, the best thing to do would be remove the Jawa Junk from the payout entirely (just increase the free spin odds). There are several variables governing the use of the machine: cost per token, time-per-spin, drop rate, and time between spins. I've seen people suggesting [imo arbitrary] increases in cost per token and time between spins (applying a debuff similar to using crafting nodes), but these changes would also affect people using the machine "as intended" (I don't think the devs intended people to see this as a substitute for running missions). I really don't want to see machine "ruined" for its intended use.

 

Changing the drop rate seems like a good solution in theory, but as long as the other parameters are left alone, the fact that it is quick to use, has other useful payouts, and (most importantly) completely bypasses the game mechanics limiting characters to three skills and to level them up (additionally, it lets people who haven't purchased SoR to participate in the Grade 11 mats market, and would be good way for F2P people to make money). As long as the mats are present, some people will complain about the drop rate.

 

I don't want to specify numbers (the devs should calculate them), but I think that devs should focus on the time aspect more than just the cost per unit. For me, any drop rate over 1% would be too high. 1% would mean about 1 every 10 minutes. So, if you are grinding a few stacks of chips for the reputation, you'll get a few purples. No big deal. But once you've got Legend and all the CM cert stuff you want, grinding 10 minutes for a purple just wouldn't seem worth it as a substitute for sending companions. I don't think I could stomach more than one stack a day even if the net cost was 0. Maybe a better way to say it is that if it takes me longer to grind a purple than run a daily, I'll run the daily and buy the purple.

Edited January 17, 2015 by eartharioch

[LordArtemis]

So... you are repositioning to 1995.00 then?

 

....or perhaps 499....HA!

[wolfyde]

Maybe a better way to say it is that if it takes me longer to grind a purple than run a daily, I'll run the daily and buy the purple.

 

The net result of what you describe might be the same for you, but the impact on the market is very different.

Grinding the purple on the machine will have removed money from the economy (the cost of the coins), whilst running a couple of dailies and buying the purple on the GTN will inject additional money into the market. Too much of one or the other would be imbalancing.

That's a balancing act on Bioware's end of course, they have the relevant data (I suppose, I hope )

[lironBD]

The net result of what you describe might be the same for you, but the impact on the market is very different.

Grinding the purple on the machine will have removed money from the economy (the cost of the coins), whilst running a couple of dailies and buying the purple on the GTN will inject additional money into the market. Too much of one or the other would be imbalancing.

That's a balancing act on Bioware's end of course, they have the relevant data (I suppose, I hope )

 

Point being true on adding\removing credits from the economy it still rendered crew skills for gathering materials obsolete which is the core of the problem here.

[wolfyde]

Point being true on adding\removing credits from the economy it still rendered crew skills for gathering materials obsolete which is the core of the problem here.

 

I can not, from personal experience, agree with you. I make a lot of my in-game money from crafting, and despite having acquired the slot machine from pack a couple of days ago, I am still leveling up crewskills on my alts as before, or sending the maxed ones out whilst I'm playing the game and just before I log off.

The crew skills have not been rendered obsolete, they have been complemented by an additional mechanic.

I do agree with previous posts that crew skills could use a buff in return rates, that is true, the scarcity being the cause for the high prices since 3.0

 

The 'core of the problem', for a limited but very vocal group of people, is that it drives prices down on sales that were previously raking in undemocratic profit margins for baseline level 60 modifications.

They are the ones you hear the loudest spouting all this unsubstantiated hyperbole on these boards.

Edited January 18, 2015 by wolfyde

[Kourage]

Slot machines should hand out BiS 198s while they're at it.

[Kourage]

The crew skills have not been rendered obsolete, they have been complemented by an additional mechanic.

I do agree with previous posts that crew skills could use a buff in return rates, that is true, the scarcity being the cause for the high prices since 3.0

 

 

That is flat out false. The current value of mats makes it a complete waste to use missions skills, much less go through the tedious skilling up process, or feeding gifts to your droid and buying him + crit equipment. The reason prices were so high was because so many players were not interested in leveling up the mission skills such as Treasure Hunting. People who had 6 or more toons leveled in Biochem and analysis didn't bother to change it with 3.0 and no more reusables. There's no credits to be made through Mission Skills. you're better off farming some dailies and buying the mats or farming slot machines.

[eartharioch]

The net result of what you describe might be the same for you, but the impact on the market is very different.

Grinding the purple on the machine will have removed money from the economy (the cost of the coins), whilst running a couple of dailies and buying the purple on the GTN will inject additional money into the market. Too much of one or the other would be imbalancing.

That's a balancing act on Bioware's end of course, they have the relevant data (I suppose, I hope )

 

Maybe I should have added some context: In general, I hate doing dailies, unless I'm with a group (on voice) to actually make it fun. So me saying I'd rather run dailies and buy the mats than spend the same amount of time clicking a slot machine and getting the mats for free is a comment about why (qualitatively) changing to the drop rate to make it average 10+ minutes (my estimate of the time to run a daily) would make me more likely to run a daily than play the machine just for purples, not a comment on the financial affect to the economy.

 

In both cases, I would send companions on missions while I was doing whatever else anyway (missions are not *as* profitable as the machine, but they are still profitable). As has been noted elsewhere, running missions removes more than twice as many credits from the economy per purple than playing the slot machine. So, by playing the machine for 10 minutes (now) and getting 10 purples instead of sending out about 15 companion missions, the slot machine sinks about 20K from the economy instead of the 60K I would have spent on missions, for a net change of +40 back to the economy. The slot machine is currently a credit source, not a sink.

Edited January 18, 2015 by eartharioch

[wolfyde]

That is flat out false. The current value of mats makes it a complete waste to use missions skills, much less go through the tedious skilling up process, or feeding gifts to your droid and buying him + crit equipment. The reason prices were so high was because so many players were not interested in leveling up the mission skills such as Treasure Hunting. People who had 6 or more toons leveled in Biochem and analysis didn't bother to change it with 3.0 and no more reusables. There's no credits to be made through Mission Skills. you're better off farming some dailies and buying the mats or farming slot machines.

 

And I do not agree, myself as proof; again, I still level and run my crew missions, despite having a slot machine.

 

The lower droprate on level 11 mats compared to level 9 ones is not imagined either; I had a much higher return rate on grade 9 purples than grade 11. As I recall there were threads complaining about that very fact not too long ago, so it can't be just an impression of mine.

[LordArtemis]

The problem does not sit with the machine. There is nothing wrong with the machine if resource rarity is not your intent.

 

If it is, you have no place in any logical discussion on the matter IMO.

 

The problem is with crew missions, and always HAS been with crew missions long before this machine was ever added to the game. It needs adjustment in order to give crafting a fair chance at being anything more than pain that provides credits.

 

If they increase resource returns, increase critical rate and give us a button to reshuffle displayed missions then crew missions will still be desirable and relevant compared to the machine and gathering. The only remaining source that nothing can compete with is purchase from the GTN itself...

 

...which is why the GTN selling mechanic will survive. Folks will still want large blocks of mats instantly, and the GTN is the only place to get that.

[DarthTHC]

And I do not agree, myself as proof; again, I still level and run my crew missions, despite having a slot machine.

 

The lower droprate on level 11 mats compared to level 9 ones is not imagined either; I had a much higher return rate on grade 9 purples than grade 11. As I recall there were threads complaining about that very fact not too long ago, so it can't be just an impression of mine.

 

The simple statement that one person cannot see the folly of an antiquated method of materials acquisition in no way proves that this new method of materials acquisition is so stellarly better than the old way that the old way is irrelevant and undesirable.

 

The simple fact is that the slot machines let you get artifact quality grade 11 materials for free, and at a much swifter pace than running missions ever did. If you choose not to use that, it doesn't make the statement any less true. Denying the truth doesn't change it.

[ThunderVamp]

I have missions skills. unless they BOOST the drop-rate from mission skills? I'd rather they didn't nerf the machine OR conquests. as an altoholic, I was stuck using blue augments almost exclusively, BECAUSE THE DAMN PURPLES WOULDN'T DROP. even with multiple characters increasing my chances. I was swimming in blue mats though, way more than I could ever use even with augmenting every alt's multiple spec sets.

 

the issue isn't the machine. the issue is - mission skills always sucked. but you were forced to use them, especially slicing, becasue there was no other way.

 

now, thanks to jawa vendors being updated? we have options. and GTN gaugers, can go to hell.

 

so maybe, just maybe, what they should be fixing is NOT the slot machine, what they SHOULD be fixing is mission skills

^

This, right here.

 

For the love of god, leave the drop rate alone. It's nice finally being able to get the mats I need without having to pay a fortune to someone else for them. If anything, work on the Crew Missions.

[DarthTHC]

The problem does not sit with the machine. There is nothing wrong with the machine if resource rarity is not your intent.

 

If it is, you have no place in any logical discussion on the matter IMO.

 

The problem is with crew missions, and always HAS been with crew missions long before this machine was ever added to the game. It needs adjustment in order to give crafting a fair chance at being anything more than pain that provides credits.

 

If they increase resource returns, increase critical rate and give us a button to reshuffle displayed missions then crew missions will still be desirable and relevant compared to the machine and gathering. The only remaining source that nothing can compete with is purchase from the GTN itself...

 

...which is why the GTN selling mechanic will survive. Folks will still want large blocks of mats instantly, and the GTN is the only place to get that.

 

The problem is with the machine.

 

Using a macro (yes against TOS but so is selling credits), dishonest players (think credit sellers) can generate an infinite number of free crafting materials.

 

That's a problem with the machine.

 

The second problem with the machine is that it is a CM item that is not cosmetic. It has a function, and that function replaces a big chunk of crafting.

[wolfyde]

The slot machine is currently a credit source, not a sink.

 

That's not true; the credits you spend on coins are de facto removed from the economy and the game, they don't change hands to another player. What you make on the GTN from the item return is money you gain from other players, money that was already present in the economy. It doesn't generate additional, new money. (apart from the creds you get from vendorselling the rep items, which is always lower than what the coins cost you)

 

Whether it siphons more or less credits from the market than the crew missions is irrelevant to it being a credit sink, it only speaks to it's relative efficiency.

Should, after some time and the dying out of the current hype, turn out that the amount of credits removed by the machine is lower than the amount previously removed by the number of crew missions now no longer being run, then there is a balancing problem that needs to be tweaked by raising the cost of coins, etc.

But to make that call one needs exact data, and only BW can truly evaluate that.

Edited January 18, 2015 by wolfyde