The Contraband Slot Machine

[RahaylaCora]

Mr. Musco, can you use our official meeting place, these forums, to confirm that the actual status of the Contraband Slot Machine is working as intended and won't be changed again?

[hachibushu]

My first suggestion? New management and QA. Both are desperately needed IMO.

 

It's quite easy from the outside to say "It's the Dev's fault" or "It's QA's fault".

 

As someone who has worked in both, without full information, quit throwing them under the bus.

 

There is a very good saying that I've learned from my years of experience- "You're the victim of your own success".

 

Several times there have been serious problems that I've pointed out... first in QA, then as a developer, and finally as an architect. And when we were ignored, etc... I went around them to make sure that the customer had the best experience possible. Whether that was working 80 hour weeks, or doing what should have been done on my off time, or several other things that in the end made us successful. They say that they appreciate it... but in the end, their actions show that they don't. And when we can't accomplish some Sisyphean task at the end... we take the fall.

 

In all likelihood, this falls upon management. No matter how much of a share the QA and Development have in it- they have the final decision to release or not.

[wiredgutter]

Anyone remember the band Rage Against the Machine? Reading some of these posts made me think of them.

[LordArtemis]

it is assumption on my part this is a failure of management and QA, but I feel that is a safe assumption.

[mattycutts]

I hope they unnerve these slot machines, not to like before but somewhere in the middle.

 

I have used many stacks of coins since they nerfed them heres one example of 99coins used: (cost: 74250 credits)

 

Banned Holovids: 25 (sell value: 12500 credits)

Prohibited Medical Supplies: 21 (sell value: 21000 credots)

Confiscated Artwork: 10 (sell value: 25000 credits

 

no materials, no cartel certificates, no mounts.

 

Cost: 74250

Sell value: 58500

 

that was a good stack. most stacks get less of the purple rep items.

 

they need to find a middle ground.

[hachibushu]

it is assumption on my part this is a failure of management and QA, but I feel that is a safe assumption.

 

You might feel that... but your feelings very likely have nothing to do with reality. In the meantime, you are calling for heads to roll. Hmmm...

 

Let's look at what we do know. There were two discrepancies with a high profile thing to be put out to production. There were also some very obvious performance problems that seem to not be related to load.

 

Would you have missed that if you were testing? So, putting out the obvious "they didn't do anything", and giving the benefit of the doubt of even a modicum of testing... how likely do you think it is that testing missed this?

 

When I was in QA, I saw things that I uncategorically show stoppers ignored. With such excuses as "We can fix them after release... before the gold master is actually pressed. We just need to get this in the mail." Or... "we can put out a patch to address this after we get past this milestone... it doesn't really matter right now."

 

Without proof to the contrary, and looking at the simplest explanation... I'd still suggest not throwing people under the bus.

[TUXs]

Without proof to the contrary, and looking at the simplest explanation... I'd still suggest not throwing people under the bus.

Who cares who he throws under the bus?! They ALL deserve it at this point because they ALL represent Bioware. He doesn't need any proof...he's a freaking customer, not an investigator. If you wanna place the blame somewhere else, go for it, but don't suggest he's wrong for placing the blame on BIOWARE as a whole...I do too. Weeks and weeks of lacking communication and misstep after misstep...at some point, you stop making excuses for them and realize that, as a whole, they have exhibited nothing but incompetence and neglect recently.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I wonder what happened to the oldest adage any form of retail business, that the customer is always right.

 

Seems to me BW adage is that the customer is a mug who we can treat anyway we please and if we ignore them long enough, they will forget why they are upset.

[hachibushu]

Who cares who he throws under the bus?! They ALL deserve it at this point because they ALL represent Bioware. He doesn't need any proof...he's a freaking customer, not an investigator. If you wanna place the blame somewhere else, go for it, but don't suggest he's wrong for placing the blame on BIOWARE as a whole...I do too. Weeks and weeks of lacking communication and misstep after misstep...at some point, you stop making excuses for them and realize that, as a whole, they have exhibited nothing but incompetence and neglect recently.

 

I care apparently. And just as you're entitled to post your rant, I'm entitled to post mine.

 

Have a great day!

[Cissero]

Hey folks,

 

We know that there have been many questions about the Contraband Slot Machine and its intent. Here are a few notes on it:

• The Contraband Slot Machine is not bugged.
  
• It is 100% not an exploit to use the Slot Machine.
  
• If you feel the desire to sell access to your Stronghold, that’s totally up to you. As a reminder, do not scam people as that is against ToS.
  
• We added the Slot Machine as a fun idea based on the positive feedback from the Nightlife event, so spend those credits to your heart’s content!
  

With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun!

 

-eric

 

Based off this post alone, my guild mates and I spent at least $1000 between us buying cartel packs to try and get the slot machines. I enjoyed the game before the slot machines, and I enjoy it still, however the way things have been handle has tainted my outlook on the competency of the employees of BioWare. Needless to say I probably won't be wasting money on cartel stuff anymore. I truly just wish that someone would respond before matters get worse.

 

I know of at least 4 people that have contacted lawyers over this matter as well as contacting the FTC simply because we were told we were buying one thing, and got another. I hate to say it, but I don't think anything will change.

[hachibushu]

I know of at least 4 people that have contacted lawyers over this matter as well as contacting the FTC simply because we were told we were buying one thing, and got another. I hate to say it, but I don't think anything will change.

 

Well, at least the lawyers will make some money.

[BuriDogshin]

Well, at least the lawyers will make some money.

"It's ... what we do." -- paraphrasing Wormhole Extreme

[joethepain]

lawyers lol grow up and move on

[LordArtemis]

You might feel that... but your feelings very likely have nothing to do with reality. In the meantime, you are calling for heads to roll. Hmmm...

 

Let's look at what we do know. There were two discrepancies with a high profile thing to be put out to production. There were also some very obvious performance problems that seem to not be related to load.

 

Would you have missed that if you were testing? So, putting out the obvious "they didn't do anything", and giving the benefit of the doubt of even a modicum of testing... how likely do you think it is that testing missed this?

 

When I was in QA, I saw things that I uncategorically show stoppers ignored. With such excuses as "We can fix them after release... before the gold master is actually pressed. We just need to get this in the mail." Or... "we can put out a patch to address this after we get past this milestone... it doesn't really matter right now."

 

Without proof to the contrary, and looking at the simplest explanation... I'd still suggest not throwing people under the bus.

 

I understand what your suggesting, and would certainly not disparage you from holding the views you do.

 

But a few points....

 

First, I do work in the industry. So your not telling me something I don't already know, though you and I know that experiences vary depending on the COMPANY you work for. Some have a better handle on things than others.

 

This did not occur in a vacuum. They have been having various issues for 6 months now, for which I constantly gave them a pass (with the exception of the repay for abilities problem with disciplines).

 

NUMEROUS bad decisions have been made lately, especially with the expansion. This was just one small step in a large series of missteps and blunders over time.

 

I am done giving them passes. I want to see a change, and a drastic one. I want to see them get themselves together and start actually doing things right. If they continue on this path I believe things are going to get progressively worse.

 

Whatever the reason I will no longer tolerate this level of ineptitude.

[EnkiduNineEight]

I've made a suggestion in the Suggestions Forum I would like to 'signal boost'. My apologies for putting this post in more than one thread.

 

Please consider visiting the thread and adding your own thoughts/ideas about changes to the slots that would make them more acceptable and help alleviate community discontent with the v1.1 changes.

 

Please note: I think we have more than enough general complain threads. Now its more helpful to provide BioWare/The Devs with some ideas and demonstrate we're being reasonable and its too their benefit to consider our suggestions.

 

Thanks!

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=793234

[Khryn]

I wonder what happened to the oldest adage any form of retail business, that the customer is always right.

 

 

Not sure what business you have ever been in, but it's widely known that the customer is an idiot and is never right. That's some 1950's adage you got going on there! lol

[hachibushu]

I understand what your suggesting, and would certainly not disparage you from holding the views you do.

 

But a few points....

 

First, I do work in the industry. So your not telling me something I don't already know, though you and I know that experiences vary depending on the COMPANY you work for. Some have a better handle on things than others.

 

This did not occur in a vacuum. They have been having various issues for 6 months now, for which I constantly gave them a pass (with the exception of the repay for abilities problem with disciplines).

 

NUMEROUS bad decisions have been made lately, especially with the expansion. This was just one small step in a large series of missteps and blunders over time.

 

I am done giving them passes. I want to see a change, and a drastic one. I want to see them get themselves together and start actually doing things right. If they continue on this path I believe things are going to get progressively worse.

 

Whatever the reason I will no longer tolerate this level of ineptitude.

 

Thanks for the well-reasoned post... I appreciate that level of discussion.

 

In regards to the idea that it's the COMPANY you work for... let's look at that a little closer. The COMPANY is a fallacy. There is no such entity, other than for corporate law. It's an illusion. A COMPANY is made up of people... those are who should be held responsible. And at the end of the day the MANAGEMENT of the company is who should take the fall, unless there is egregious misconduct that flies in the face of that MANAGEMENT.

 

That is the reason I talk about taking the devs and the QA and other rank-and-filers out of that equation, and point the IRE where it should be directed- the MANAGEMENT.

 

This is giving no one a pass. It is holding those that are usually not held to be responsible to the level of responsibility and relative compensation that they enjoy.

[Heat-Wave]

Not sure what business you have ever been in, but it's widely known that the customer is an idiot and is never right. That's some 1950's adage you got going on there! lol

 

While that may be true sometimes...

 

The customer is always the customer, it is their money which keeps the business... In business...

 

A lot of businesses who forgot that no longer exist...

[Vhaegrant]

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

Original thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=792704

 

The Contraband slot machines are a good idea, aside from the obvious drop rates on the initial release, the biggest issue is that they are so easily exploited by those with a lot of time on their hands or the third party tech to run macros. This is not a good thing.

 

If news from the recent San Antonio Cantina event is true and they are not considering a further change then this also is not a good thing.

 

I agree that the first drop rates were far too high. But the reaction to nerf them into oblivion to balance it against those players that sit for 5+ hours at a time clicking the slots completely destroys the item for those that found it a fun way to pass a little time between queues popping.

 

It should also be remembered that while companions run Crew missions the player can get on with other stuff, whether in-game such as dailies, fps, etc... or out of game such as sleeping. The slot machine is an exclusive activity, you can not do anything else, although you can still send companions out on crew missions.

 

I have previously suggested differing drop rates, I'll list them again here for completion.

 

Raise slot-chip cost to 1,000 credits.

 

• 30.49% (0.3049) Loss
  
• 25% (0.25) Green Reputation Token
  
• 10% (0.1) Blue Reputation Token
  
• 4% (0.04) Purple Reputation Token
  
• 20% (0.2) Green Jawa Material
  
• 8% (0.08) Blue Jawa Material
  
• 2% (0.02) Purple Jawa Material
  
• 0.5% (0.005) Cartel Certificate
  
• 0.01% (0.0001) Faction Mount
  

 

Limit the amount of slot-chips a legacy can spend per day to 200.

 

I feel these steps go a long way to moderating the impact any abuse can have while still meeting the original criteria.

 

Restricting the number of times a player can do an activity is nothing new in MMOs. We already have dailies, weeklies, OP lockouts and a limit on the number of coms that can be earned in a week and stored.

 

I purposely removed the reward of a slot-chip as I prefer simpler maths, at most it extends the time spent feeding slot-chips into the machine, as pure reward with slot-chips costing 1,000 credits it is effectively the same as a Blue reputation win after you've maxed out reputation

 

The limit across the legacy is to stop abuse of using 22 character slots.

If 200 sounds too low then maybe a Legacy unlock feature could be added.

 

'I don't have a problem!' Legacy unlock :

• Rank 1: +100 slot-chips per day = 2,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 2: +100 slot-chips per day = 4,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 3: +100 slot-chips per day = 8,000,000 credits
  

Edited January 26, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[grombrinda]

So no statements made by Bio yet ??

[Drockter]

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

Original thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=792704

 

 

The Contraband slot machines are a good idea, aside from the obvious drop rates on the initial release, the biggest issue is that they are so easily exploited by those with a lot of time on their hands or the third party tech to run macros. This is not a good thing.

 

If news from the recent San Antonio Cantina event is true and they are not considering a further change then this also is not a good thing.

 

I agree that the first drop rates were far too high. But the reaction to nerf them into oblivion to balance it against those players that sit for 5+ hours at a time clicking the slots completely destroys the item for those that found it a fun way to pass a little time between queues popping.

 

It should also be remembered that while companions run Crew missions the player can get on with other stuff, whether in-game such as dailies, fps, etc... or out of game such as sleeping. The slot machine is an exclusive activity, you can not do anything else, although you can still send companions out on crew missions.

 

I have previously suggested differing drop rates, I'll list them again here for completion.

 

Raise slot-chip cost to 1,000 credits.

 

• 30.49% (0.3049) Loss
  
• 25% (0.25) Green Reputation Token
  
• 10% (0.1) Blue Reputation Token
  
• 4% (0.04) Purple Reputation Token
  
• 20% (0.2) Green Jawa Material
  
• 8% (0.08) Blue Jawa Material
  
• 2% (0.02) Purple Jawa Material
  
• 0.5% (0.005) Cartel Certificate
  
• 0.01% (0.0001) Faction Mount
  

 

Limit the amount of slot-chips a legacy can spend per day to 200.

 

I feel these steps go a long way to moderating the impact any abuse can have while still meeting the original criteria.

 

Restricting the number of times a player can do an activity is nothing new in MMOs. We already have dailies, weeklies, OP lockouts and a limit on the number of coms that can be earned in a week and stored.

 

I purposely removed the reward of a slot-chip as I prefer simpler maths, at most it extends the time spent feeding slot-chips into the machine, as pure reward with slot-chips costing 1,000 credits it is effectively the same as a Blue reputation win after you've maxed out reputation

 

The limit across the legacy is to stop abuse of using 22 character slots.

If 200 sounds too low then maybe a Legacy unlock feature could be added.

 

'I don't have a problem!' Legacy unlock :

• Rank 1: +100 slot-chips per day = 2,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 2: +100 slot-chips per day = 4,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 3: +100 slot-chips per day = 8,000,000 credits
  

 

 

I think the number of spin limits makes a lot of sense, and plays to idea of finding some middleground between the CSM making crew skill missions pointless, and the CSM pointless.. so +1 for me.

 

Thats where I think BW was short sighted. They did not account for the number of people (and could easily be botted) who would be willing to stand there and click every 6 seconds for hours on end... to do this for their entire in-game time/experience.

 

Now, I am not saying everyone who used the machine is this way... I did use the machine... I can not where come close to the numbers some people have posted. Probably your 200 limit would have not impacted me. I would plug tokens in while waiting for a team, or for an ops to start... as I am sure a lot of people were doing.. these were not the ones who had a negative impact on the economy... it was those who spent 8 hours right clicking the box.

 

My guess, the people who want to see the junk/scrap/parts rate bumped are like myself... I'd rather not stand there and right click... but it was nice to have if you wanted to craft something on the quick... and your rate (200) seems good to me...

[Vhaegrant]

 

I think the number of spin limits makes a lot of sense, and plays to idea of finding some middleground between the CSM making crew skill missions pointless, and the CSM pointless.. so +1 for me.

 

Thats where I think BW was short sighted. They did not account for the number of people (and could easily be botted) who would be willing to stand there and click every 6 seconds for hours on end... to do this for their entire in-game time/experience.

 

That was my eureka moment.

I realised there would never be any chance of finding a compromise if the slots are left as unlimited access.

 

Nearly everything in the game that could be abused has a time based lockout, whether it be Dailies, Weeklies, OPs, how many coms you can earn/store, reputation. Even the crew missions have a limit to how many can be run at a time and the duration they take limits the number that can be run a day.

[LordArtemis]

There are a few more problems with the slot machine IF it was to return as it was, so that is how I will look at it...in it's prior state...

 

The problem was threefold.

 

1) No need to fix crew missions and gathering if you can just gather all the mats you need from the machine, conquest, packs.

2) The machine had a return rate over time much higher than any other method, other than direct purchase of mats of course. This was due to a short pull time and reasonable win rate.

3) There is little in place to prevent abuse. Can be easily stacked up to three machines at once, macro use works, etc.

So, with that, any restriction to the amount of coins that can be purchased or used, as well as a restriction to ONE PULL AT A TIME (another pull would cancel the prior pull) and removing the anti-afk flag (treat it like the GTN) would remove a good portion of the ability to "game" the device.

[Choloe]

While that may be true sometimes...

 

The customer is always the customer, it is their money which keeps the business... In business...

 

A lot of businesses who forgot that no longer exist...

 

I own a SMALL BUSINESS. and I pointed out a few times already that it is far easier to KEEP A GOOD CUSTOMER than it is to GET A NEW GOOD CUSTOMER... There is also the "TOXIC CUSTOMER" that for the sake of your business and employees, you HAVE to get rid of.

 

The problem is, if you treat all of your PAYING CUSTOMERS (those of us that SUBSCRIBE and SUPPORT THE CARTEL MARKET) like TOXIC CUSTOMERS - you are not doing a good job at keeping that GOOD CUSTOMER.

 

What Bioware needs to do is LOOK AT THE ACCOUNTS of those that complained prior to nerf, and currently complaining about the nerf... Which has the MAJORITY of SUBSCRIBERS and SUPPORTERS OF THE CARTEL MARKET... THAT is where their MONEY is...

 

If they are not doing that; then everyone that says BioWare is doing things as a "money grab" could not be any more wrong!!!

 

(It is also my opinion that Free 2 Play players should have zero say at all in anything - in fact, I honestly hope they can not even post on the forums; they are what we in the comic shop business call "moochers" (or FREE COMIC BOOK DAY 'SHOPPERS') - they want everything for free and will never buy anything - will try and read books in the store, and ask ever every FCBD book on FCBD and NEVER spend a dime)

Edited January 26, 2015 by Choloe

[wiredgutter]

The limiting spin idea is brilliant!