Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[AdeiphoVH]

Max, I think you're being a bit too unfair. Most are attempting to come at this game from the perspective of gamesmanship, because well it is a game and gamesmanship is the very definition of in-game conduct. In it's purest form, gamesmanship _IS_ the practice of winning a game or contest by doing things that seem unfair but that are not actually against the rules. The key thing is this game does have rules and exploiting is against them. So, on it's face exploiting is against the rules and therefore out of bounds as a method for trying to win while playing it. I think that's where nearly everyone you describe in your circular reasoning example is coming from.

 

I will take a slightly different attempt; I could give a crap about the morality that may be involved. But then, I acknowledge that containment through secrecy is one of the most powerful defenses a game developer may have in fighting exploits so I think one of the absolute worst classes of people are the ones that communicated the exploit. Call it the "snitches get stiches" position.

 

Exploits are bad for us all, because it circumvents the game's designed, planned, executed, and intended life cycle. MMORPG's are a highly competitive market, and SWTOR, to tremendous media coverage is in that competition. MMORPG's stem from a long history of digital RPG gaming; in fact this very game has been marketed as the thematic, if not direct 3rd through 10th sequels to a single-player RPG KotoR.

 

There are several things that differentiate mmorpgs from single-player rpgs; it's all there in the letters. This game is online. There is an ongoing need to pay the bills. This game doesn't involve a single-purchase and install. It requires a tremendous infrastructure to support. That's where we get to the lynchpin of mmorpgs: the content cycle. Like it or not, what drives success in mmorpgs is a steady stream of content; this is the tradeoff. People pay to support the game -- beyond a single boxed purchase. And so, people expect a continued return. Broken content cycles fail games.

 

What an exploit of this nature does is artificially expedite that content cycle. The outlier is the coordinated hardcore raider. They are progressing in content most nights, and then as they clear and formulate strategies, repeat with their Alts. They drive the end-game, and "beat" it quicker than most. They gear out main toons in completing and quickly gear out alts because they've mastered the strats and all are coordinated. In the case of the beginning of this exploit, there was only one team -- one team in game that had the achievement. Not everyone was at that point, and so all raiding teams were striving to get to that point and earn the rewards. That takes work. It's fun, it's exciting to clear progression. It is one of the major play styles that this game caters to, like it or not. Not every team is so coordinated to clear lockouts for the whole group on 2 or 3 or 4 alts a week. So, the natural cycle to even progress, and clear bosses, and then gear up an entire team is a natural duration. Then comes the gearing up of alts that extends this natural cycle further. What the devs do then is target the content cycle for when most of the regular -- not the top raiders in the world -- teams complete the content.

 

What the exploit does is shorten that cycle. Then once people have won, and won on all the toons they feel they want to. They will leave the game until the next content -- IF a new bright, shiny object hasn't taken their attention first. This game has experienced that cycle, and to all our detriment.

 

Why does this matter to anyone? Because there's another important letter: the "m" for multiplayer. If everyone leaves -- or as people have said, if everyone is banned for breaking the rules -- then there won't be any game to play at all; or rather the play experience for likely everyone would be impacted. Take another approach: end-game raiders share a greater than average percentage of subs, which is one the most desirable revenue stream EA wants for its recurring predictability. If 10%-15% of the player base up and leaves from boredom or rules enforcement actions, YOU and I are likely also be impacted by that result.

 

So what you are saying is, We are all ****ed.

[Neoforcer]

It's wrong because BioWare says it's wrong. They get to make the rules, and when someone tries to circumvent those rules then that is considered cheating. Doesn't matter who it does or does not affect. If I don't follow the rules when playing Solitaire, I am still cheating even though no one else is affected by my actions except for myself. Whether you want to consider something cheating or not is irrelevant. Those who makes the rules get to decide that, as does the general society who decides to accept those rules.

 

He been saying that why if this is exploiting then why is not exploiting else were in the game pvp for one also exploiting it why he says hypocrites. Because you can exploit and cheat in pvp all you want but just don't touch the crown jewel pve.

[Neoforcer]

then the people complaining about "morality" are completely off base. this has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with bw deciding you had broken their rule. the sad thing is this has left bw looking more inept as the days go by.

 

 

That's because BW allow other to break the rules every where else with no punishment but don't touch pve your punished. That's what makes BW look inept it is ok to break the rules only were we say you cant. Makes BW hypocrites of there own won word.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Neoforcer

[DarthDymond]

It's wrong because BioWare says it's wrong. They get to make the rules, and when someone tries to circumvent those rules then that is considered cheating. Doesn't matter who it does or does not affect. If I don't follow the rules when playing Solitaire, I am still cheating even though no one else is affected by my actions except for myself. Whether you want to consider something cheating or not is irrelevant. Those who makes the rules get to decide that, as does the general society who decides to accept those rules.

I think there's some 'precision of language' issues going on here when you say "wrong", because some people read "wrong" as another word for "immoral", and while BW get to set the rules of the game, they don't get to set what's moral vs immoral.

 

Beyond that there are (at least) two different views on the immorality of breaking the rules that I don't think anyone here is going to persuade anyone else to change their position on:

 

1) Breaking the rules is immoral. Period. End of Story. Thank you, sir. Good day.

-or-

2) Breaking the rules is immoral if and only if it harms someone else.

 

(I'm avoiding using the word "cheating" up there because for some people "cheating" means "any deviation outside of the rules" whereas other people might consider cheating "any morally blameworthy deviation outside the rules" - which then would just be begging the question.)

Edited January 17, 2015 by DarthDymond

[ellrochell]

this thread is overrated I give it a Bret Hart 4/10.

[eartharioch]

Solitaire also contains no eula or Tos to use.

 

8. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. The manufacturer or installer and Microsoft reserve all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. For more information, see the software documentation. You may not

· work around any technical limitations in the software;

[Golgulok]

Been following this for few days with some interest. Yes, I will hold my hand up and admit, I am in the guilty camp. I looted Ravagers.

 

Three years subbed. Spotless standing with BW. Never one reprimand or report. Not a scolding, never an abusive action again any fellow player. I good supportive active player.

 

You find yourself in a Guild and the raid leader divulges to a few members, that there is a loophole in an instance in which you can get gear drops. You say “What is this Witchcraft?”

 

And you go and pick up loot, and think... “Damn! OK, **** it. I've pissed millions of credits on repair bills due to broken content. I can't do 1/3 of the expansion due to issues that are driving me insane. **** it.”

 

Then you wait for Tuesday... “Surely they are going to put a stop to this? There's people *********** QUEUING outside the Operation entrance, en-mass!”

 

Nope, they let it go for another week. Then post on the forums about reprimanding players. It honestly feels like 'entrapment'.

 

Those that didn't 'exploit' that are calling for bans are sorely mistaken if they think that it will have any positive effect on this issue what-so-ever.

 

Because quite frankly, the vast majority of those that took advantage are long standing, subscribers with spotless records that got carried away with a means of gearing themselves to attempt new content that they couldn't get their heads around because it was broken!

 

They 'we' are not devious, hacking, game braking, PvP trolling evil doers and not having us in the game is not going to be good for the community at all.

[AdeiphoVH]

Been following this for few days with some interest. Yes, I will hold my hand up and admit, I am in the guilty camp. I looted Ravagers.

 

Three years subbed. Spotless standing with BW. Never one reprimand or report. Not a scolding, never an abusive action again any fellow player. I good supportive active player.

 

You find yourself in a Guild and the raid leader divulges to a few members, that there is a loophole in an instance in which you can get gear drops. You say “What is this Witchcraft?”

 

And you go and pick up loot, and think... “Damn! OK, **** it. I've pissed millions of credits on repair bills due to broken content. I can't do 1/3 of the expansion due to issues that are driving me insane. **** it.”

 

Then you wait for Tuesday... “Surely they are going to put a stop to this? There's people *********** QUEUING outside the Operation entrance, en-mass!”

 

Nope, they let it go for another week. Then post on the forums about reprimanding players. It honestly feels like 'entrapment'.

 

Those that didn't 'exploit' that are calling for bans are sorely mistaken if they think that it will have any positive effect on this issue what-so-ever.

 

Because quite frankly, the vast majority of those that took advantage are long standing, subscribers with spotless records that got carried away with a means of gearing themselves to attempt new content that they couldn't get their heads around because it was broken!

 

They 'we' are not devious, hacking, game braking, PvP trolling evil doers and not having us in the game is not going to be good for the community at all.

 

It'd be a sad day in SWToR hell when the Carebears calling for everyones heads on sticks (ironic really they are so cute and fuzzy.) realize that since everyone that was banned are the ******es carrying them through raids so they can enjoy the content too and now they can't do it. Gear doesnt mean **** to me when I am leading a raid, if its a goddamn face roll all I care about is if you have any *********** manners. Now that the Carebears have shown how little they think of the people carrying there fluffy asses through raids they can go **** themselves. If everyone that did the exploit gets banned, they can Go **** Them Selves.

[fushnchips]

It'd be a sad day in SWToR hell when the Carebears calling for everyones heads on sticks (ironic really they are so cute and fuzzy.) realize that since everyone that was banned are the ******es carrying them through raids so they can enjoy the content too and now they can't do it. Gear doesnt mean **** to me when I am leading a raid, if its a gosh darn face roll all I care about is if you have any *********** manners. Now that the Carebears have shown how little they think of the people carrying there fluffy asses through raids they can go **** themselves. If everyone that did the exploit gets banned, they can Go **** Them Selves.

 

We call it the Chill buff lol

[dhadeus]

It's wrong because BioWare says it's wrong. They get to make the rules, and when someone tries to circumvent those rules then that is considered cheating. Doesn't matter who it does or does not affect. If I don't follow the rules when playing Solitaire, I am still cheating even though no one else is affected by my actions except for myself. Whether you want to consider something cheating or not is irrelevant. Those who makes the rules get to decide that, as does the general society who decides to accept those rules.

 

They also say that gold spamming is wrong, and that it is also wrong to use nonsensical names like, "asfdhihf". But they do nothing AT ALL to even attempt to do anything about it. So, is it right for them to do this? No. So who is more in the wrong here?

[AdeiphoVH]

We call it the Chill buff lol

 

ill give you a haematochezia buff if you dont ****.

[PatT]

More or less than the plethora of Ultimate and Elite comms did? Of course it had some impact, but I contend that it was minimal compared to the "exploiting" of old Ops. The old Ops dropping Ultimate coms was a far bigger boon for players...I ran them every week though.

 

As someone who had no idea they planned to remove them, or they weren't intended to stay, how can you compare that to obviously skipping an entire op just to loot an already dead last boss you ddint kill? At least these people ran the darn raid. Don't throw **** into a fan, this isn't even a comparison. I'm sorry, but the one thing looks nothing like the other.

[PatT]

We call it the Chill buff lol

 

Actually we don't want or need his kind. I don't want to be "carried" through raids or HM's and I don't have to be. If you're so leet, please, move on to a game more your liking. I might as well, thanks to people like you.

 

I didn't cheat. Didn't eventhink about it. Matter of fact, when I saw it was possible I got so angry I didn't play for 24 hours. I know full well others got rich and got gear. Now those people sit nicely geared claiming they are "carrying us? With what? Stolen cars? All I gotta say is you deserve, nor do you get, any respect from me.

[fushnchips]

Actually we don't want or need his kind. I don't want to be "carried" through raids or HM's and I don't have to be. If you're so leet, please, move on to a game more your liking. I might as well, thanks to people like you.

 

I didn't cheat. Didn't eventhink about it. Matter of fact, when I saw it was possible I got so angry I didn't play for 24 hours. I know full well others got rich and got gear. Now those people sit nicely geared claiming they are "carrying us? With what? Stolen cars? All I gotta say is you deserve, nor do you get, any respect from me.

 

Do you wan't another drink ?

[Frybert]

Its Star Wars, we love it! Edited January 17, 2015 by Frybert

[fushnchips]

Its Star Wars, we love it!

 

One of the best posts yet, And yes we do

[Frybert]

1492.

[Fractal_Eye]

1492.

 

Columbus sailed the ocean blue?

 

(I realize your post is #1492, but I couldn't resist.)

[_NovaBlast_]

Hey folks,

 

Let’s talk a bit about the Ravager’s exploit. There are two stages to the process of removing an exploit and handling actions for players who participated. Stage 1 – fix the issue and ensure players can no longer partake in the exploit. That change is out as of today in patch 3.0.2.

 

Stage 2 – With the exploit removed, we can work towards finalizing our data review and assigning appropriate actions. We have a lot of information! We know who used it, who they invited, how many times they exploited, when they participated, credits gained, and whether they gained a crafting pattern from reverse-engineering. We are still reviewing the data and determining the appropriate action for those who took undue advantage of the exploit. We won’t be taking action today, but we’ll wrap it up in the next week or so.

 

On the plus side, most players didn't partake in the exploit at all allowing us to focus on the few who did. It may seem silly to thank you for not using an exploit, but we really appreciate you taking the time to raise our awareness of the issue through a variety of channels. It demonstrates your commitment to the game and to keeping the game fun, and fair for everyone. So thank you for not using the exploit.

 

-eric

 

 

That paragraph is so much win.

 

If you are very harsh with your punishments this time maybe you will have lasting effects and reduce the number of exploiters the next time

 

(no matter what your punishment is there will always be people who will try to get away with ti) .

 

If people know they are going to get a harsh ban hammer maybe a portion of them will think twice.

 

The fact that people think they are "entitled" to e exploit .."becase bioware...." make me shake my head even more.

 

If you like the game play it if you don't leave its really that simple.

Edited January 17, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[MeNaCe-NZ]

So far, no one can explain why using the exploit was wrong, other than some vague hypothetical "harm" resulting from some raid leader somewhere making a gear-based choice, that many other raiders have blown off as silly.

 

Having that happen to you != hypothetical.

 

Being that you don't raid or PVP and you repeat the same nonsense over and over and never back it up with any sort of logic regardless of how many times you get called on it it seems all you really do is troll.

 

As such i think I'm pretty much done feeding you.

 

When I did do the exploit, which was only twice, on the few 60's I have

 

Etc. etc. Question - Few questions ...

 

Did you do the exploit for the reasons in your post or because of curiosity etc. What stopped you from doing it more than twice?

 

Whilst I think you should lose anything you gained I don't think you should be punished beyond that as it sounds like you knew it was wrong and decided not to take it further as I'm sure many players did but curiosity and the sense of entitlement from the bugs got the better of them but they knew they needed to stop because to go further kinda of went beyond curiosity and any sense of reasonable entitlement.

 

It's those that went beyond that that I think need punishing and most likely will be.

 

this has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with bw deciding you had broken their rule.

 

Because you get to decided what everyone else consider moral right? That's the second perhaps who doesn't seem to understand the concept of morals what so ever.

 

Because quite frankly, the vast majority of those that took advantage are long standing, subscribers with spotless records that got carried away with a means of gearing themselves to attempt new content that they couldn't get their heads around because it was broken!

 

They 'we' are not devious, hacking, game braking, PvP trolling evil doers and not having us in the game is not going to be good for the community at all.

 

How far did you got with this exploit though? How many times? How many toons? etc. As I believe there are varying degrees of guilt/culpability here.

 

You more or less hit the nail on the head though also. People who had otherwise spotless records really thought they could do this and get away with it because BW never did anything before. Well sorry it's that attitude that is wrong with all of this situation. For Bioware to do nothing now means the next exploit more and more people will do it and things will just get riddiculously out of hand.

 

There needed to be a tipping point when it came to exploits and maybe this it, I'm sure if/when they do take action the more previously spotless people like yourself would think twice about doing it again.

 

Also surely you knew this was an exploit when you run it? Surely you knew there was an element of risk? Nothing can be justified by "the game is buggy so I'll just do this as my reward/payback". I can get people doing it once or twice but beyond that I think it's intention to cheat.

 

If people know they are going to get a harsh ban hammer maybe a portion of them will think twice.

 

The fact that people think they are "entitled" to e exploit .."becase bioware...." make me shake my head even more.

 

If you like the game play it if you don't leave its really that simple.

 

Well said.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Pitchfork crew gonna ban a motha ***ka

Musco coming down gonna tax anotha sucka

 

Don't look at me never done nuttin wrong

Chillin with da crew never smoke dat cheech and chong

 

Growin up on Nintendo never use a cheat code

Puttin in da work only run dat hard mode

 

Never had a daddy run me through a single raid

Work a honest day always get dat rent paid

 

Never skip a mob cause I only run legit

Passin on loot if I gots betta s***

 

On da starter planet teachin noobs dat honor code

Never undercuttin just to get my s*** sold

 

OG motha ***ka been down since dat beta

Look up honor code and you see it mean Zeta

 

Supportin dis game when I buyz dat Hypercrate

Exploiter goin down when SWTOR finally regulate

[AdeiphoVH]

Actually we don't want or need his kind. I don't want to be "carried" through raids or HM's and I don't have to be. If you're so leet, please, move on to a game more your liking. I might as well, thanks to people like you.

 

I didn't cheat. Didn't eventhink about it. Matter of fact, when I saw it was possible I got so angry I didn't play for 24 hours. I know full well others got rich and got gear. Now those people sit nicely geared claiming they are "carrying us? With what? Stolen cars? All I gotta say is you deserve, nor do you get, any respect from me.

 

Like it or not at some point you didnt know the Operation or HM fights, and someone who was more knowledgeable showed you the way. Just because people can clear an Op's doesn't mean they exploited at all. Even if it is buggy as ****, and if you really dont understand how buggy it is go try to run it, cuz remember you dont want to be carried.

[KingFink]

Pitchfork crew gonna ban a motha ***ka

Musco coming down gonna tax anotha sucka

 

Don't look at me never done nuttin wrong

Chillin with da crew never smoke dat cheech and chong

 

Growin up on Nintendo never use a cheat code

Puttin in da work only run dat hard mode

 

Never had a daddy run me through a single raid

Work a honest day always get dat rent paid

 

Never skip a mob cause I only run legit

Passin on loot if I gots betta s***

 

On da starter planet teachin noobs dat honor code

Never undercuttin just to get my s*** sold

 

OG motha ***ka been down since dat beta

Look up honor code and you see it mean Zeta

 

Supportin dis game when I buyz dat Hypercrate

Exploiter goin down when SWTOR finally regulate

 

Ok NOW you can all go home.

 

With the addition of this post this thread has officially delivered all it could possibly deliver.

 

R.I.P. thread.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

pitchfork crew gonna ban a motha ***ka

musco coming down gonna tax anotha sucka

 

don't look at me never done nuttin wrong

chillin with da crew never smoke dat cheech and chong

 

growin up on nintendo never use a cheat code

puttin in da work only run dat hard mode

 

never had a daddy run me through a single raid

work a honest day always get dat rent paid

 

never skip a mob cause i only run legit

passin on loot if i gots betta s***

 

on da starter planet teachin noobs dat honor code

never undercuttin just to get my s*** sold

 

og motha ***ka been down since dat beta

look up honor code and you see it mean zeta

 

supportin dis game when i buyz dat hypercrate

exploiter goin down when swtor finally regulate

 

/tsdr

[BuriDogshin]

The Ravagers exploit was harmless compared to whats going on with the Contraband Slot Machines now. Sure, what is being done with the machines violates the ToS. But odds are no one will be punished and the effect on the economy, on purple grade 11 mat prices for example, has been dramatic.

 

I guess BioWare did not notice all the ToS violations that happened at the NS Nightlife event, or didn't stop to wonder what the effect of making the prizes unbound would be.

 

Well, I'm off to install another slot machine on our GF, and then back to my NS SH for a little quality time clicking my two machines installed there. Later!

Edited January 17, 2015 by BuriDogshin