This is demoralizating - Knight tank vs Vanguard tank

[Rankaze]

By the way if you are not a Jedi Knight tank and atleast level 46 and have cleared everything up to your level...then you have nothing to say, simply because you have no bases to say it. Furthermore, its not about just pvp or leveling or flashpoints. I am a raider I tank things that one shot other members of the grp. Again, my job.

 

1). I played a Protection-spec Paladin in WoW and both led and tanked raids.

 

2). I played a Paladin in Final Fantasy XI and tanked on a regular basis.

 

3). I played a Brute in City of Villains and tanked Strike Forces.

 

4). I have also played DPS classes in all of these games.

 

5). I do, in fact, have a Jedi Guardian, defense-spec. I'm not level 46 yet, but I have done some tanking and have a grasp of how the mechanics work.

 

I know a fair amount about tanking mechanics in MMO's, and let me start by saying this. Most games are not like WoW. In WoW a tank can fairly trivially produce enough threat for the DPS to go full bore all the time and not pull aggro.

 

In other MMO's I have played, this has *not* been the case. Most MMO's expect a DPS to have a solid understanding of how threat works and to know when to back off and when to go full bore. In some MMO's (see: Final Fantasy XI), it was actually PREFERRED for DPS to steal aggro in certain situations so that special abilities (like Thief's Sneak Attack/Trick Attack combination) could be used to their fullest effect. In City of Heroes, a tank isn't expected to *hold* aggro at all. His job is to absorb the alpha strike while the melee DPS peel off individual mobs to kill (as melee DPS in CoH is more than capable of taking hits) and the ranged DPS AoE the group.

 

Even vanilla WoW expected a DPS to know when to back off; a mage or lock or DPS warrior who heedlessly went all out all the time would pull aggro and die very quickly even with an excellent tank. It was the DPS's job to know better. It was only around the start of BC, when the designers of WoW began adding threat dumps to all the DPS classes, that the skill of managing one's threat generation was no longer required to be an effective DPS.

 

Therefore, the flat statement that a tank should be able to hold aggro against any DPS any time is indicative of someone whose understanding of tanking is only based on World of Warcraft... and only on that game in its current form.

 

So in answer to your question, the idea that the tank should by himself control the encounter is, in fact, somewhat foreign to me, because it's a mentality that only exists in ONE of the several MMO's I've played.

 

It may be that you need to broaden your horizons.

 

EDIT: Corrected a typo

Edited December 26, 2011 by Rankaze

[nowares]

1). I played a Protection-spec Paladin in WoW and both led and tanked raids.

 

2). I played a Paladin in Final Fantasy XI and tanked on a regular basis.

 

3). I played a Brute in City of Villains and tanked Strike Forces.

 

4). I have also played DPS classes in all of these games.

 

5). I do, in fact, have a Jedi Guardian, defense-spec. I'm not level 46 yet, but I have done some tanking and have a grasp of how the mechanics work.

 

I know a fair amount about tanking mechanics in MMO's, and let me start by saying this. Most games are not like WoW. In WoW a tank can fairly trivially produce enough threat for the DPS to go full bore all the time and not pull aggro.

 

In other MMO's I have played, this has *not* been the case. Most MMO's expect a DPS to have a solid understanding of how threat works and to know when to back off and when to go full bore. In some MMO's (see: Final Fantasy XI), it was actually PREFERRED for DPS to steal aggro in certain situations so that special abilities (like Thief's Sneak Attack/Trick Attack combination) could be used to their fullest effect. In City of Heroes, a tank isn't expected to *hold* aggro at all. His job is to absorb the alpha strike while the melee DPS peel off individual mobs to kill (as melee DPS in CoH is more than capable of taking hits) and the ranged DPS AoE the group.

 

Even vanilla WoW expected a DPS to know when to back off; a mage or lock or DPS warrior who heedlessly went all out all the time would pull aggro and die very quickly even with an excellent tank. It was the DPS's job to know better. It was only around the start of BC, when the designers of WoW began adding threat dumps to all the DPS classes, that the skill of managing one's threat generation was no longer required to be an effective DPS.

 

Therefore, the flat statement that a tank should be able to hold aggro against any DPS any time is indicative of someone whose understanding of tanking is only based on World of Warcraft... and only on that game in its current form.

 

So in answer to your question, the idea that the tank should by himself control the encounter is, in fact, somewhat foreign to me, because it's a mentality that only exists in ONE of the several MMO's I've played.

 

It may be that you need to broaden your horizons.

 

EDIT: Corrected a typo

 

All of this is what I keep seeing with everyone single QQ thread about tanking. DPS needs to not be fail, use your CC (it is there for a reason) and have a kill order. If you can't hold threat single target that's a you issue not the class.

[oholyknight]

All of this is what I keep seeing with everyone single QQ thread about tanking. DPS needs to not be fail, use your CC (it is there for a reason) and have a kill order. If you can't hold threat single target that's a you issue not the class.

 

interesting, so what you are saying is tanking in tor=no fun, dps in tor=no fun, how about healing with this free for all, I cant do my job mentality I suppose it would be the most fun. You are correct, wow is the game I have the most experience in, though not the only one. Wow has been the top MMO for 7 years for a reason. Partly because specs were defined, if wow made a mistake at bc then I doubt the subscriptions would have almost doubled in a short period of time. You may enjoy standing there waiting on a cooldown to come back so you can tank again but I do not. You may fail at tanking so bad that its a relief to have others do it for you, I do not. You may think even though you have not played the class to the point I have you know better then.

 

All that being said means nothing, either tanks are tanks or you dont need them. But no worries I went dps, as many have. Look in general chat on your server, search for a tank to run Red reaper. Good luck.

 

Ill either dps and wait till they fix this or Ill choose another class. Yes if wow was Star Wars based and wasnt going the way of the panda, I would rather play those tanking mechanics with a bit of this thrown in.

 

Try as you might you cant defend a broken system, if it wasnt broke then wow would have stayed that way.

[nowares]

The system isn't broken. Your belief that you should be able to AoE tank like a paladin in WoW is the issue. I have 0 problem tanking and holding threat. I don't find myself waiting around on a cooldown to be effective. If you have fail dps that are nOt CCing and focus firing your target news flash let it end poorly for them. It isn't your job or the healers to carry stupid.

 

Maybe the issue is that I run with a fairly constant group who understands CC and assist targeting and you seem to be runnin with fail pugs.

[oholyknight]

The system isn't broken. Your belief that you should be able to AoE tank like a paladin in WoW is the issue. I have 0 problem tanking and holding threat. I don't find myself waiting around on a cooldown to be effective. If you have fail dps that are nOt CCing and focus firing your target news flash let it end poorly for them. It isn't your job or the healers to carry stupid.

 

Maybe the issue is that I run with a fairly constant group who understands CC and assist targeting and you seem to be runnin with fail pugs.

 

And you are a jedi tank at level 46? and if your idea of tanking is holding on mob that to me means you couldnt handle real tanking so yeah the system is broken. You guys seem to think because you fail at the job that its everyone elses fault which prooves the point I made to start with. That tells me you cant learn a dps class well enough to be effective, which would make healing out of the question so you choose tank. The spec were its everyone else's fault. Lame. I tank because I like and can do the job. I tank, run a raid, keep my folks safe, and have a ball doing it. At least till now. Sure dps will learn when to pull and when not too, but you obvisouly never really tanked anything difficult. If all you can do is guess at what you think in a theory, then dont bother me with it. I am there doing it and it is broke. Funny thing is no one has said "what do you think would fix it?" This will be my last post on the matter, I can make up my own mind what to do from here I posted because the devs. need to know the problems experienced and long paying customers see. If that isnt an issue for you, good day, I dont need your input.

[nowares]

And you are a jedi tank at level 46? and if your idea of tanking is holding on mob that to me means you couldnt handle real tanking so yeah the system is broken. You guys seem to think because you fail at the job that its everyone elses fault which prooves the point I made to start with. That tells me you cant learn a dps class well enough to be effective, which would make healing out of the question so you choose tank. The spec were its everyone else's fault. Lame. I tank because I like and can do the job. I tank, run a raid, keep my folks safe, and have a ball doing it. At least till now. Sure dps will learn when to pull and when not too, but you obvisouly never really tanked anything difficult. If all you can do is guess at what you think in a theory, then dont bother me with it. I am there doing it and it is broke. Funny thing is no one has said "what do you think would fix it?" This will be my last post on the matter, I can make up my own mind what to do from here I posted because the devs. need to know the problems experienced and long paying customers see. If that isnt an issue for you, good day, I dont need your input.

 

All I hear from this is I want to play this game like the AoE-fest that WoW became in the WoTLK expansion. What you want and what this game is currently aren't meshing so it probably is best you quit tanking and went dps.

[Galtin]

 

Try as you might you cant defend a broken system, if it wasnt broke then wow would have stayed that way.

 

Threat management in vanilla WoW required smart players. Threat management in Cataclysm WoW requires zero skill on any players part. I played a DPS and a tank in Cata and I rarely, if ever, had to worry about threat regardless of which role I was playing. WoW has been dumbed down significantly over the years and the problem SWTOR will have is having a large part of its player base used to playing a game that requires little to no skill.

 

The skilled Guardians will be able to successfully tank in this game. Players who tanked in Cata WoW and think they know how to tank are likely in for a rude awakening.

[Veigh]

NEVER balance a game for PvP, it screws the entire single player experience up which is the focal point of this game, as it is a story driven MMO. WoW shot themselves in the foot by trying to balance this and they even admitted it ruined their game in the long run.

[Wylfing]

NEVER balance a game for PvP, it screws the entire single player experience up which is the focal point of this game, as it is a story driven MMO. WoW shot themselves in the foot by trying to balance this and they even admitted it ruined their game in the long run.

 

Amen. In fact it's my understanding that PvP is what led to the presently nerfed status of Guardians. We were too sticky and too resilient - nobody could peel us off or kite us. So the nerfbat struck.

 

Hopefully they realize this approach is stupid sooner rather than later.

[iconocast]

...... and let me start by saying this. Most games are not like WoW. In WoW a tank can fairly trivially produce enough threat for the DPS to go full bore all the time and not pull aggro.

 

In other MMO's I have played, this has *not* been the case. Most MMO's expect a DPS to have a solid understanding of how threat works and to know when to back off and when to go full bore. ...

 

this is true

[Finndali]

WoWs "tank mechanics" are ridicoulus and completely trivialized the entire game.

I really wish people would realize that THIS IS SWTOR, NOT WOW!!!!!!!

And i wish even more, fervently hope actually, that Bioware will NOT cave in to the WoW crowd, just because they all whine that this game doen't work like they're used to.

[NrOneHero]

@Oholyknight: You must be one of the most retarded posters I have seen ever since I started to play wow 7 years ago. You are speaking like if your words are the only thruth and reality while I as a expereinced raider can clearly see that you have no clue whatsoever to what you are talking about

[ursusarctus]

Ehh guardian @ 50 is soo much better than vanguard essp in pvp terms.

 

Vanguard for starters get almost no cc , whereas guardian has like 5 different forms .

 

Also guardian has 2 timed abilities that makes him immune to dmg whereas vanguard has a crap 25% absorbation.

 

End game guardians do a bit less dmg than guardians but consider he vast amount of utility they got , the trade is heavily favorite them .

 

Get to 50 see how better a guardian is .

[CapuchinSeven]

The skilled Guardians will be able to successfully tank in this game. Players who tanked in Cata WoW and think they know how to tank are likely in for a rude awakening.

 

This. Had a few PUG groups giving me "advice" on tanking because they wouldn't listen to me. Go back to the same place with a group that listened and understood that tanking isn't like WoW and BAM, we nail the place on the first try.

[Kiyasu]

Maybe you're just bad holy knight. You keep implying your skill at other games translates 100%. To swtor. Past basic skill I like to not claim I know everything I'm talking about 6 days in idk bout you. And your logic is crap. I could just say I'm a lvl 49 jk tank and that unless you are also 49 your input is worthless. I actually agree the jk and shadow tanks (what I play) lack in air compared to vans. Of course I can out single Target every van I meet. Stop being a pompous ***. Stop saying you're a raid tank before you've raided swtor. Just stop talking.