davidp_newton Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 It's like I'm saying something, and people are just hearing whatever they want to respond to instead -- or they're maybe just jumping in without the context of the previous pages and so entirely missing what's being said. I'd say you're more guilty of that. You refuse to acknowledge why the change was made in the first place. The reason you refuse to acknowledge why the change was made in the first place is that the areas of the game it really affects are pretty much completely outside your experience. We have tried to explain it to you, but the blinkers are strong with you. Beyond that I think we cannot really go with constructive discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 So as always this "choice is illusion" thing depends entirely on the assumption that a player must focus entirely on utilitarian mathematical optimization of the character for Ops and PvP, and that all other considerations are meaningless -- and this often comes with the unspoken (or spoken) addendum that any player who does otherwise is "bad". The player might not be bad, but the outcome of their choice is relative to developer intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) I'd say you're more guilty of that. You refuse to acknowledge why the change was made in the first place. The reason you refuse to acknowledge why the change was made in the first place is that the areas of the game it really affects are pretty much completely outside your experience. We have tried to explain it to you, but the blinkers are strong with you. Beyond that I think we cannot really go with constructive discussion. Well, you're right on that one bit at the end -- because: A) you insist that understanding why the change from the specific old system was made must equate to supporting the specific new system that we ended up with, and B) you refuse to even consider that using the old system as a comparison point, or saying that the old system had some advantages over the new system, is not the same thing as demanding a return to the old system But that's one of the classic fallacies that humans commit -- "You don't agree with me, so you must be ignorant or refusing to understand." Edited December 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Well, I for one recognize that some folks did not care about roles, and that in the casual sense roles are less significant naturally....therefore it is likely a casual player would notice a loss of the choice to choose an AC and not a role, as opposed to having that choice. Originally the choices were self evident.... 1) Do not choose an AC. Difficult but not impossible to play this way, many folks leveled all the way to the top using this method. 2) Choose an AC but not a role, but placing points in completely custom areas instead of the traditional tree build. This worked for casuals, IMO, because a role is less important. 3) Choose an AC and a role, which meant having to dedicate the majority of your points into a single tree. This system has removed option 2. You now have no choice but to choose a role if you choose an AC, like it or not. Want to solve this problem without removing the current system? Here is one possible solution....specialists. Specialists would be very special AC branches, technically a "hybrid" build allowing almost complete freedom in your build. The idea is that you can graduate your class into one of these "specialties" that allows you to gain certain abilities and traits but lose others (disabled). I am going to think about this for a while, but the gist would be that you would not be allowed to participate in group content or PVP with your specialization active. Specializations would be for open world questing and leveling only. There would be no need for balance, other than making sure a character is not a god in the world. This could also facilitate two things..... 1) The ability to quest without a companion present. 2) The ability to reduce the "slog" of leveling. Let me give one very early example....Imperial Agent, Sniper, Marksmanship Lets say you lament the loss of some of your DPS potential, and the ability to drop strong OS and Suppressive fire outside of cover. Lets also say that you also miss the general relevance of cover. So one of the specializations might be "deadeye", where you get some new abilities, some boosts to old ones. First, as a "deadeye", you can fire off OS and Suppressive fire, as well as cover pulse outside of cover. However, in Cover, now called Prone (and given the proper prone animation) gives you Sneak when it activates, it has a boost in damage/pushback range, as does all of your abiities....a 20 percent boost in power, and 20 percent reduction in energy use/increase in alacrity. Cover also adds 5 meters to all distance restrictions. It also changes the behavior of Ambush to Assassinate, the HK-51 ability. You make 5 kills and charge your Assassinate to do 4X normal damage, enough to drop most strongs in a single shot....at an energy cost 4 times the normal rate. You can, of course, mitigate the cost with other abilities for the shot. There are, of course, a few caveats to using the "deadeye" spec. One, you are more susceptible to area damage...you take 50 percent more area damage when in prone position. Also, you movement speed is reduced by 50 percent, and that reduction lasts 2 seconds after you leave the prone position. Just one idea. There are ways to give back choice to players without effecting end game or PVP. Edited December 16, 2014 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Well, you're right on that one bit at the end -- because: A) you insist that understanding why the change from the specific old system was made must equate to supporting the specific new system that we ended up with, and B) you refuse to even consider that using the old system as a comparison point, or saying that the old system had some advantages over the new system, is not the same thing as demanding a return to the old system But that's one of the classic fallacies that humans commit -- "You don't agree with me, so you must be ignorant or refusing to understand." Not sure where you are going with "A". The simple fact is that the change was made and any discussion of that change has to deal with the facts of the situation, not "what could/should have been". As for B, the old system is the comparison point and the old system only had advantages for people using hybrid builds that were never intended in the first place or who were using abilities for non-FP, non-OP PvE which are now included in the Utilities for each AC. In other words, in your hatred for the new Discipline system you fail to realize that keeping the old skill tree system while adding 5 more levels worth of skill points and abilities to the trees would have required a complete redesign of each tree within each AC in order to prevent overpowered hybrid builds and would have kept placing key role abilities out of the reach of lower level characters in order to prevent those same OP hybrids. It would also require the Dev's to take even more time to design in balance for 12 different trees while trying to determine how players will break them with unintended results. The Discipline system allows development to simply create and balance new abilities and utilities for each new level added instead of constantly balancing entire trees every time the cap is raised in an effort to prevent players from breaking the system. Key abilities can be given to lower levels without worrying about someone getting key abilities from multiple trees through a hybrid build. The Discipline system is what we have. Railing against it will accomplish nothing, especially when the arguments are coming from the few people who used unbalanced hybrid builds or who don't participate in end game and were looking for some sort of easy mode for their daily PvE activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 In other words, in your hatred for the new Discipline system you fail to realize that keeping the old skill tree system while adding 5 more levels worth of skill points and abilities to the trees would have required a complete redesign of each tree Stop right there -- again, you're making the mistake of thinking that I'm rejecting any need for the old system to be changed or replaced, or that I'm demanding a return to the old system. Until people get past the false dichotomies here, we're just going around in circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Stop right there -- again, you're making the mistake of thinking that I'm rejecting any need for the old system to be changed or replaced, or that I'm demanding a return to the old system. Until people get past the false dichotomies here, we're just going around in circles. Then what are you railing against? If you don't want the new system and don't want the old system that means that you'd have to have a third system in mind, right? The current system is nothing more than the optimized version of the old trees with the fun utilities people ignored or be unable to use because they were too far up another tree to get made available. Considering the only argument I've seen concerning the new system has been that people "don't have a choice", it makes me wonder what choices they were making prior to 3.0 that were so all fired awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Then what are you railing against? If you don't want the new system and don't want the old system that means that you'd have to have a third system in mind, right? The current system is nothing more than the optimized version of the old trees with the fun utilities people ignored or be unable to use because they were too far up another tree to get made available. Considering the only argument I've seen concerning the new system has been that people "don't have a choice", it makes me wonder what choices they were making prior to 3.0 that were so all fired awesome... Which is why I listed off several possible things that people were focusing on other than "endgame efficacy" in several posts, lists which have been pretty much ignored or scoffed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Which is why I listed off several possible things that people were focusing on other than "endgame efficacy" in several posts, lists which have been pretty much ignored or scoffed at. Riiiight. Look, those "things" people were focusing on are just as easily focused on using the discipline and utility system. That's the point people are trying to make. Those "things" are much less important when weighed against things like end game Ops and PvP content. The small handful of people who used a hybrid assassin darkness/madness build in order to roll dailies are less important than the overall health of the game. They can still do "their thing" but they are going to have to do it under the rules of the new system in order for the game to be healthy going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Riiiight. Look, those "things" people were focusing on are just as easily focused on using the discipline and utility system. That's the point people are trying to make. Those "things" are much less important when weighed against things like end game Ops and PvP content. The small handful of people who used a hybrid assassin darkness/madness build in order to roll dailies are less important than the overall health of the game. They can still do "their thing" but they are going to have to do it under the rules of the new system in order for the game to be healthy going forward. Evidently you missed the list, then. That was only one small part of it. And regardless of what's going to be claimed, the new system is in fact worse for many sorts of players outside the endgame/PvP focused. Hard to build a character-centric spec when you get a single line of mandatory powers that can't be varied from or avoided. Hard to focus on rotations that a player finds comfortable or stay away from power mechanics that a player finds annoying or tedious, when you get a single line of mandatory powers that can't be varied from or avoided. Oh well. Edited December 17, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craft Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 all i know is there where trees when i left for a few months because of a divorce and when i got back . my guild of 50 plus had all quit. now im a guild leader of none played since beta and am quiting as well makes me sad im sorry swtor it was a good run but im gona opt out as well i dont enjpy the new system ant all as a personal preference good luck all ill miss you and the game i remember bummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahRedden Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 . Anyone else dislike this new system No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 all i know is there where trees when i left for a few months because of a divorce and when i got back . my guild of 50 plus had all quit. now im a guild leader of none played since beta and am quiting as well makes me sad im sorry swtor it was a good run but im gona opt out as well i dont enjpy the new system ant all as a personal preference good luck all ill miss you and the game i remember bummer Yet you manage the time to necro the hell out of this post. Leave the dead in peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) all i know is there where trees when i left for a few months because of a divorce and when i got back . my guild of 50 plus had all quit. now im a guild leader of none played since beta and am quiting as well makes me sad im sorry swtor it was a good run but im gona opt out as well i dont enjpy the new system ant all as a personal preference good luck all ill miss you and the game i remember bummer Cripes...good riddance to those who foist run on sentences onto us. Edited April 4, 2015 by Bachannal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 all i know is there where trees when i left for a few months because of a divorce and when i got back . my guild of 50 plus had all quit. now im a guild leader of none played since beta and am quiting as well makes me sad im sorry swtor it was a good run but im gona opt out as well i dont enjpy the new system ant all as a personal preference good luck all ill miss you and the game i remember bummer Sounds like you really took the time to give this new system a fair shake. I can only commend such a measured response to this new feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 What is up with people necroing threads today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximusRex Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 What is up with people necroing threads today? I notice it happens a lot on weekends when there is less forum moderation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I notice it happens a lot on weekends when there is less forum moderation. It's also a holiday weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Oi gotta love it Edited April 5, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dacentabaal Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I like the new Utility tree bar for 1 class, now with rest its an advantage to select parts from the old trees in utilities, however when it comes to my sniper.. not so much, most of the utility points I had maxed out pre-3.0, now since 3.0 I can only choose a handful of abilities where as before I had them all pretty much always a hard choice on my sniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stampex Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I must say, that i dislike the new skill tree.. its too boring, i liked the old one, cus there you coud build your char many ways, and it was not that easy to make a good one.. now. you just need too pick one, and it set it self for you.. bring the old skill tree back pls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoofa Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I must say, that i dislike the new skill tree.. its too boring, i liked the old one, cus there you coud build your char many ways, and it was not that easy to make a good one.. now. you just need too pick one, and it set it self for you.. bring the old skill tree back pls You never had that much choice with the old skill tree. For each role DPS/Healer/Tank there were at most two viable skill tree choices if you wanted to be competitive in either/or PvE/PvP. If the old system had laods and loads of different options and allowed you to stay viable then yes - bring something similar back. But as it didn't, it's certainly far easier to just have the single path to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 You never had that much choice with the old skill tree. For each role DPS/Healer/Tank there were at most two viable skill tree choices if you wanted to be competitive in either/or PvE/PvP. If the old system had laods and loads of different options and allowed you to stay viable then yes - bring something similar back. But as it didn't, it's certainly far easier to just have the single path to follow. "No choice" only if you gave a damn about squeezing that last few percent out and chasing the endless end-game ratrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I must say, that i dislike the new skill tree.. its too boring, i liked the old one, cus there you coud build your char many ways, and it was not that easy to make a good one.. now. you just need too pick one, and it set it self for you.. bring the old skill tree back pls there was always one or two ways to make a "good one" depending on pvp/pve. additionally there were numerous ways of making bad ones. And to top it off, the few people that managed to make viable hybrids were causing problems with how to make new skills and buff old skills without making hybrids too powerful. hence remove the hybrid, remove the chance of people making piss poor char decisions and making game play for others harder, move to a single skill tree and give the people options on utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslanderRebel Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I just updated to this 3.0.....I gotta admit. I hate it. I hate hate hate it. I cant get used to it I lost like 4 main abilities i used. I hate it. The setup is lame. Cant stand playing anymore. Most likely will quit playing. and this sucks cause i love SWTOR and i was dreading this new system when it was mentioned. My friends and I play this game together and we all agree that we hate it, and its a shame cause we drop big bucks on the game and this sucks cause we cant stand it. I gave it a chance and I cant stand it. Really cant. Anyone else dislike this new system Of course, everybody hate sit, especially Sorcs and Sins. Now to remedy your problem can I have your stuff? I 'll remove it from you free of charge and save you the migraine headache. Edited August 7, 2015 by IslanderRebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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