Flagging and Feign Death

[LordArtemis]

If there was an option to disable the flag, there still has to be situations where you will get a forced flag...in PVP flagged zones and attacking factional flagged NPCs.

 

With a disabled flag, you should not be able to attack city guards OR players unless you physically flag.

[TravelersWay]

In my original post, you'll note that I did not call the people who engage in this activity PVPers. I called them "flagged players" and "griefers," because that is what they are. I did not make this post because someone got me with it, in fact I clearly stated that everyone who has tried to use this method against me has not succeeded.

 

I made this post quite simply because I have seen others complaining and/or bragging about it both on the forums and in game, and my concern is that new and returning players may be driven away from the game by this behavior.

 

My suggestion does not hurt PVP in any way, shape, or form. Players who want to engage in PVP activities can still flag, and leave their flags on indefinitely, as they can now. The only people that my suggestion would negatively affect are griefers, as they would no longer be able to trick people into flagging (though, admittedly, they would probably still find a way, just like they did when the AOE/Companion flagging exploits got fixed), and honestly...I couldn't possibly care less if the griefers are negatively affected by this. Their playstyle is built upon making a negative experience for others, so their opinions are invalid, anyway.

 

I have absolutely nothing against legitimate PVP, even on PVE servers, but tricking people into flagging so you and your stealthed buddies can gank them is not an activity that real PVPers participate in.

 

Very well stated.

 

If there was an option to disable the flag, there still has to be situations where you will get a forced flag...in PVP flagged zones and attacking factional flagged NPCs.

 

With a disabled flag, you should not be able to attack city guards OR players unless you physically flag.

 

That would and should be an obvious exception to the manual flag only rule. To be honest, I never gave much though to the flagging system, and have never experienced this issue myself, but now that these types of things seem to be becoming more prevalent, it just makes sense to disable all auto-flagging features on PvE servers with the exceptions of entering those designated PvP areas.

[Teresabelle]

But at the end of the day, whether you like OWPVP or not, it is not a strictly PVP server thing as some are suggesting it should be. Go take a look at your legacy, which btw is only for the server you are on, and you will see OWPVP achieves, and in some cases titles. How can you try and say you shouldn't OWPVP on a PVE server when it's right in the legacy for you to do? Now I do happen to know a couple, not all the people that have taken advantage of this. I don't because I don't like PVP. And more times than not people DON'T fall for it, and that was when it came out DAY 1. So to me it's kinda like well there's a big tablet on Voss that you only click once, why cause you learned not to touch it. It's not hurting you or costing you creds. You don't like it go back to the medcenter, toggle it off, and go get you a drink or use the bathroom in the 5 min it takes to unflag. Most of the time unless there is some action going on they will move on anyways. Edited November 20, 2014 by Teresabelle

[TravelersWay]

But at the end of the day, whether you like OWPVP or not, it is not a strictly PVP server thing as some are suggesting it should be. Go take a look at your legacy, which btw is only for the server you are on, and you will see OWPVP achieves, and in some cases titles. How can you try and say you shouldn't OWPVP on a PVE server when it's right in the legacy for you to do?

Legacy has nothing to do with the server you are on. There would be no reason to create different Legacy systems for each different server type. In fact, that would be a waste of resources. So the fact that PvP achievements are in Legacy has no bearing on the desire to not participate in PvP on a PvE server, nor the request to only allow for manual flagging on those servers outside of the designated areas.

 

You don't like it go back to the medcenter, toggle it off, and go get you a drink or use the bathroom in the 5 min it takes to unflag. Most of the time unless there is some action going on they will move on anyways.

And as it has been mentioned previously, why should someone who has no desire to PvP be forced to change the way they play the game, or interrupt their current play session, on a PvE server because of griefers?

Edited November 20, 2014 by TravelersWay

[Andryah]

Yet another thread, whereby the OP is blaming personal lack of attention on the game.

 

The Feign Death item in no way fools the alert player. The careless player though.... fodder for clever players trying to trick them into PvP.

 

Will players find clever ways to try to trick people into flagging in MMOs? Yep.

 

Is a PvE server in SWTOR still enabled with PvP? Yep. Sorry... wrong MMO if you want a PvE only MMO.

 

If you simply cannot manage your own attention-2-detail when playing an MMO... then perhaps stick to true non-PvP MMOs. There are a few of them around. SWTOR is NOT one of them.

 

It simply is not necessary, IMO, for an MMO dev team to dumb down the game mechanics so that nobody can every get a boo-boo while playing carelessly.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

And as it has been mentioned previously, why should someone who has no desire to PvP be forced to change the way they play the game, or interrupt their current play session, on a PvE server because of griefers?

 

Because there is NO, NONE, ZIP, NADA servers in SWTOR where there are no PvP mechanics. People are confusing PvE servers in SWTOR = no PvP.... or protections from PvP no matter what. A PvE server in SWTOR simply gives the player a bit more control over their entry into PvP... not complete immunity from the results of carelessness.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

It simply is not necessary, IMO, for an MMO dev team to dumb down the game mechanics so that nobody can every get a boo-boo while playing carelessly.

 

Fair enough to feel this way, but I strongly disagree with this sentiment, though I strongly AGREE with the rest of your post.

 

it is necessary, IMO for the devs to adjust a game to recognize and cater to it's current market opportunities. It is of course unfortunate, and I lament the past as much as anyone in this respect. But, I have to accept that that means a more casual, unfortunately less responsible playerbase in general.

 

And that means no forced PVP....period. Even if it is only perceived that way, even if it is completely the players fault the ONLY acceptable forced flag IMO in the current market would be from a flagged zone.

 

One day that may even change. But for now it seems that the potential players in the market are moving STRONGLY against the idea of forced flagging for reasons other than territory violation.

 

The current MMO market is not very PVP friendly. Even raiding is falling out of favor.

Edited November 21, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Sorwen]

Actually there are some thing missing here. It isn't just your slot 1. Area loot has to be turned off, you cannot do any area attacks, and I've even had it flag on a single pull taunt when they were near the NPC. As has been said this shouldn't be happening on a PvE server at all. This is nothing but greifing and exploiting a bug.

[LordArtemis]

Actually there are some thing missing here. It isn't just your slot 1. Area loot has to be turned off, you cannot do any area attacks, and I've even had it flag on a single pull taunt when they were near the NPC. As has been said this shouldn't be happening on a PvE server at all. This is nothing but greifing and exploiting a bug.

 

If I am not mistaken, area loot and area attacks no longer trigger a flag.

[DomiSotto]

Harassing a person who did nothing wrong to you, and who the perpetrator knows cannot fight back due to gear limitations is dishonorable, low and disgusting. Edited November 21, 2014 by DomiSotto

[Halinalle]

Actually there are some thing missing here. It isn't just your slot 1. Area loot has to be turned off, you cannot do any area attacks, and I've even had it flag on a single pull taunt when they were near the NPC. As has been said this shouldn't be happening on a PvE server at all. This is nothing but greifing and exploiting a bug.

 

If I remember correctly people ran into my Force Storm constantly during last Rakghoul event. Did I get flagged? No, I didn't. And no, not even Chain Lightning trigger it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Halinalle

[LordArtemis]

There are a few universal truths, IMO, when it comes to this situation. Naturally some folks will disagree, but I believe the following to be self evident.

 

1) Players have to make a mistake in order to get a flag this way...therefore the responsibility to avoid it resides with the player. There is no way that a player can actually force a flag on a player, but they can trick a player into one.

 

2) Players that engage in this kind of behavior are not real PVP players. It is obviously a predatory dishonorable practice that demonstrates weakness.

 

3) The idea that this is griefing is not cut and dry...it may or may not be against the rules, depending on how you interpret the rules of conduct. So at this moment it is a matter of opinion.

 

4) Bioware could stop this from happening, and despite efforts from certain types of PVP players active in the forums they have made adjustments in the past to curb this kind of behavior. That likely means that even Bioware finds this behavior inappropriate.

 

5) Losing the ability to flag a player in this way is not taking away options from PVP players, or inhibiting their ability to PVP in any way. What it is in fact doing is giving the same rights to PVE players that PVP players have, the right to chose what type of play they wish to engage in.

 

 

There isnt a single reputable reason I can think of to stand against this change, but one could argue there are more important things to do at the moment IMO.

Edited November 21, 2014 by LordArtemis

[agamemnon-]

Simple fix would be to remove the auto-flag. But since that makes too much sense, I doubt Bioware will do it.

[TUXs]

Because there is NO, NONE, ZIP, NADA servers in SWTOR where there are no PvP mechanics. People are confusing PvE servers in SWTOR = no PvP.... or protections from PvP no matter what. A PvE server in SWTOR simply gives the player a bit more control over their entry into PvP... not complete immunity from the results of carelessness.

 

Whoa....this is by far, one of the best posts I've read on this subject, and from the unlikeliest of sources...very good reply Andryah. Extremely well written.

[wean]

I find it to be very humorous. I am not one for childish acts but when I see someone feign death, a total tea bagging is in order. Usually they snap right out of it.

[Grayseven]

Whoa....this is by far, one of the best posts I've read on this subject, and from the unlikeliest of sources...very good reply Andryah. Extremely well written.

 

The problem is in equating people getting flagged due to this douchebaggery as "carelessness". It isn't. It is PvE players playing their game the way they always have but now face grief in the form of d-bags who use "Feign Death" in order to flag them.

 

This isn't on the PvE players who are just out doing their thing, it's on the pseudo-PvP players who can't face a real fight and have to resort to griefing PvEer's in order to feel like they're "someone".

 

To even try to put this on PvE players who haven't started doing something different is a sad indictment of the ignorance that seems to run rampant on these forums lately. Blame falls squarely on those who are using this to grief, not on the players they are griefing.

[TUXs]

I find it to be very humorous. I am not one for childish acts but when I see someone feign death, a total tea bagging is in order. Usually they snap right out of it.

LOL! I love it. See, this is how you deal with it...you don't give them the satisfaction of getting what they want.

[TUXs]

The problem is in equating people getting flagged due to this douchebaggery as "carelessness". It isn't. It is PvE players playing their game the way they always have but now face grief in the form of d-bags who use "Feign Death" in order to flag them.

 

This isn't on the PvE players who are just out doing their thing, it's on the pseudo-PvP players who can't face a real fight and have to resort to griefing PvEer's in order to feel like they're "someone".

 

To even try to put this on PvE players who haven't started doing something different is a sad indictment of the ignorance that seems to run rampant on these forums lately. Blame falls squarely on those who are using this to grief, not on the players they are griefing.

Oh I know, don't misunderstand my belief that this is carelessness on the part of the player for excusing the actions of the d-bags, it's most certainly not! I think they hurt PvP with actions like this and that upsets me - they give PvP a bad name, which it doesn't deserve.

 

Blame falls on the griefers, but players can easily deny them the satisfaction they're seeking by simply paying more attention. This is very similar to the GTN "scam"...players are abusing in-game systems to get unintended results...in neither case do I believe in protecting the scammer/griefer or blaming the victims, even though it's avoidable in both cases.

[Grayseven]

Oh I know, don't misunderstand my belief that this is carelessness on the part of the player for excusing the actions of the d-bags, it's most certainly not! I think they hurt PvP with actions like this and that upsets me - they give PvP a bad name, which it doesn't deserve.

 

Blame falls on the griefers, but players can easily deny them the satisfaction they're seeking by simply paying more attention. This is very similar to the GTN "scam"...players are abusing in-game systems to get unintended results...in neither case do I believe in protecting the scammer/griefer or blaming the victims, even though it's avoidable in both cases.

 

I don't see this in the same light as the GTN "scam".

 

We have been using the GTN as it is without issue until a few people failed to see the difference between a comma with 3 digits behind it and a period with two digits behind it. The "Feign Death" grief points to a fundamental flaw in the PvP flagging system that has existed since launch.

 

On a PvP server it doesn't matter, but on PvE servers engaging in PvP should require more than clicking on a flagged player or running through someones AoE. It should require the conscious effort of both parties involved. Unflagged players should not "get the jump" on flagged players but should have to already be flagged themselves in order to engage in PvP. Until that flag is toggled, no actions by the unflagged player should affect a flagged player.

 

That one, simple change would remove any opportunity for grief.

 

And while the GTN really does need a good make-over to give it better functionality and increased clarity, you'd think that people using it for more than two years would have a better grasp for how it works. Eventually, the "Feign Death" trick will cease to work as more people become aware of it (just as the GTN scam has) but the flaw in PvP flagging on PvE servers will still exist and someone will figure another way to grief PvE players into flagging.

[Joesixxpack]

With the introduction of the Feign Death regen item, we have seen an increase in trolling of players, especially in daily areas by flagged people using the item nearby defeated mobs, with the hope that players will click on their loot icon, and in doing so, attack them, and flag. This is often accompanied by other players in stealth who will then gank the newly flagged player.

 

People actually grief with such a stupid gimmick? And, more amazingly, people fall for it?

 

Hahahaha! Never change MMOs...

Edited November 21, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[TUXs]

...on PvE servers engaging in PvP should require more than clicking on a flagged player or running through someones AoE

 

I'm going to stop you here. This is a flat out lie. AoEs don't flag people...if you can prove otherwise, please post a link to your video here...otherwise, stop spreading this lie.

[EllieAnne]

We need to stop saying it is the fault of the PvEer and that they are careless. No! they are being griefed and I'll point out something most of you seem to have forgotten. The "PvPer" is feigning death right on top of a mob to loot. So what can I do? I try to loot the mob I killed and get flagged. THAT is why it is griefing and not silly slap & tickle or pve vs pvp. You are preventing me from collecting my loot.

 

Look, if you are feigning death in the middle of an empty field and I come and "loot" you, that's on me. But when you are preventing me from playing the game, that's on you.

Edited November 21, 2014 by EllieAnne

[Grayseven]

I'm going to stop you here. This is a flat out lie. AoEs don't flag people...if you can prove otherwise, please post a link to your video here...otherwise, stop spreading this lie.

 

Correct, that has been fixed. It was but an example of actions that cause flagging without conscious effort. The fact that it once was an issue but is no longer probably needed clarification.

 

The underlying sentiment of requiring both players involved in a PvP confrontation to toggle their flags remains.

[TUXs]

Correct, that has been fixed. It was but an example of actions that cause flagging without conscious effort. The fact that it once was an issue but is no longer probably needed clarification.

 

The underlying sentiment of requiring both players involved in a PvP confrontation to toggle their flags remains.

Well, "technically" both players are toggling this...right? I'm all for making it harder for griefers to get their jolly's, even if it means another pop-up to confirm someone wants to PvP...but this is also avoidable by players if they pay attention.

[TUXs]

We need to stop saying it is the fault of the PvEer and that they are careless. No! they are being griefed and I'll point out something most of you seem to have forgotten. The "PvPer" is feigning death right on top of a mob to loot. So what can I do? I try to loot the mob I killed and get flagged. THAT is why it is griefing and not silly slap & tickle or pve vs pvp. You are preventing me from collecting my loot.

 

Look, if you are feigning death in the middle of an empty field and I come and "loot" you, that's on me. But when you are preventing me from playing the game, that's on you.

 

Agreed. 2 wrongs don't make a right. This is a griefing problem...but it's also one that we can avoid if we're careful...right?