Flagging and Feign Death

[leihn]

Good post.

 

No one who purposely does either of these is contributing to the game, and we'd be better off without them.

 

This is a rather glib and absolute interpretation of a wide set of individual players. You don't necessarily know what they do or don't do in support of this game, the nature of humans is not black or white, but complex.

[Andryah]

If players being dumb was a reason to avoid making improvements to the game, or placing mechanics in place to protect us from ourselves hardly anything would likely ever be added.

 

Nobody is saying that this MMO, or any MMO, does not deserve things to be added, including Quality-of-Life features. You went all hyperbolic with that one LA.

 

Now.. let's flip your logic around for a moment..... If an MMO company must patch in every possible safety harness to protect dumb/inattentive play by a player.... then said MMO will be cluttered and weighted down with tons of code just to protect those who simply insist on shooting themselves in the foot through carelessness. AND... you would be right back in the forum complaining about the degrading performance of the client as the dev continues to code and install anti-carelessness protections (which are pure overhead for all players because some are careless) into the game.

 

TL;DR... you cannot fix stupidity or carelessness on the part of players with code, without injecting other negative results into the game play as well.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Andryah

[jstankaroslo]

Nobody is saying that this MMO, or any MMO, does not deserve things to be added, including Quality-of-Life features. You went all hyperbolic with that one LA.

 

Now.. let's flip your logic around for a moment..... If an MMO company must patch in every possible safety harness to protect dumb/inattentive play by a player.... then said MMO will be cluttered and weighted down with tons of code just to protect those who simply insist on shooting themselves in the foot through carelessness. AND... you would be right back in the forum complaining about the degrading performance of the client as the dev continues to code and install anti-carelessness protections (which are pure overhead for all players because some are careless) into the game.

 

TL;DR... you cannot fix stupidity or carelessness on the part of players with code, without injecting other negative results into the game play as well.

 

Simple question: do you support this kind of behavior? Yes/No

[ivanhedgehog]

Nobody is saying that this MMO, or any MMO, does not deserve things to be added, including Quality-of-Life features. You went all hyperbolic with that one LA.

 

Now.. let's flip your logic around for a moment..... If an MMO company must patch in every possible safety harness to protect dumb/inattentive play by a player.... then said MMO will be cluttered and weighted down with tons of code just to protect those who simply insist on shooting themselves in the foot through carelessness. AND... you would be right back in the forum complaining about the degrading performance of the client as the dev continues to code and install anti-carelessness protections (which are pure overhead for all players because some are careless) into the game.

 

TL;DR... you cannot fix stupidity or carelessness on the part of players with code, without injecting other negative results into the game play as well.

 

as you have never coded for this or any other game, you have absolutely no idea how easy or hard it is to code these things in.

[TravelersWay]

as you have never coded for this or any other game, you have absolutely no idea how easy or hard it is to code these things in.

 

No one does, except those of us who have had coding experience.

 

Regardless, she is right to one extent, however, as LA has mentioned, having safety harnesses put into a game is SOP and even more so as MMOs continue further down the casual route. They removed the ability to kill companions for similar reasons. Heck that's why nearly every piece of software usually has warning and confirmation boxes pop up - to protect us (and our computers) from ourselves.

 

However, stock must be taken in regards to things like this and the GTN issue on how much of a negative experience this can cause the playerbase, or even a portion thereof. In the past, things like this have proven to provide enough negative experiences for players to harm the overall game. Heck, that's why we see more and more casual aspects coming into MMOs to begin with - the gaming community as a whole have grown tired of the "antics" of this nature and are looking to play games that do not allow such things to occur.

[ivanhedgehog]

No one does, except those of us who have had coding experience.

 

Regardless, she is right to one extent, however, as LA has mentioned, having safety harnesses put into a game is SOP and even more so as MMOs continue further down the casual route. They removed the ability to kill companions for similar reasons. Heck that's why nearly every piece of software usually has warning and confirmation boxes pop up - to protect us (and our computers) from ourselves.

 

However, stock must be taken in regards to things like this and the GTN issue on how much of a negative experience this can cause the playerbase, or even a portion thereof. In the past, things like this have proven to provide enough negative experiences for players to harm the overall game. Heck, that's why we see more and more casual aspects coming into MMOs to begin with - the gaming community as a whole have grown tired of the "antics" of this nature and are looking to play games that do not allow such things to occur.

 

the main reason to stop you from killing companions is to avoid CS tickets when the story requires those same companions. many of the QOL fixes are in response to numerous CS complaints. that cost money, which any publisher wishes to avoid

[Brewski]

This is a rather glib and absolute interpretation of a wide set of individual players. You don't necessarily know what they do or don't do in support of this game, the nature of humans is not black or white, but complex.

 

It's not glib at all. It's an absolutely well thought out and considered opinion. You may disagree, but my opinion is my own.

 

Anyone who does either of the aforementioned behaviors is gaining joy at the expense of others. As I said, neither activity is technically illegal or against the rules, and I have not been affected by either personally. However, by intentionally trying to ruin the fun of one or more other players, they are negatively affecting the game.

 

We would be better off without them.

[Brewski]

Nobody is saying that this MMO, or any MMO, does not deserve things to be added, including Quality-of-Life features. You went all hyperbolic with that one LA.

 

Now.. let's flip your logic around for a moment..... If an MMO company must patch in every possible safety harness to protect dumb/inattentive play by a player.... then said MMO will be cluttered and weighted down with tons of code just to protect those who simply insist on shooting themselves in the foot through carelessness. AND... you would be right back in the forum complaining about the degrading performance of the client as the dev continues to code and install anti-carelessness protections (which are pure overhead for all players because some are careless) into the game.

 

TL;DR... you cannot fix stupidity or carelessness on the part of players with code, without injecting other negative results into the game play as well.

 

No one is asking for clunky or invasive changes to the game. (Well, maybe some are, but most are not.) They are asking for simple UI changes that not only would limit this sort of negative behavior, but also have several other secondary benefits.

 

Similarly, no one is suggesting you can fix stupid. You can, however, put in simple safeguards that make it more difficult to mislead players. By the "you can't fix stupid so there's no point in trying" logic, they might as well also put back in auto-flagging on AoE and all of the other changes they've put in over time.

 

You can't fix stupid, and you can't prevent all griefing. However that does not mean you shouldn't try to limit both.

[Andryah]

Simple question: do you support this kind of behavior? Yes/No

 

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES in this thread already... I do NOT support the bad behaviors by other players. AND AT THE SAME TIME...this particular tear fest of this thread topic is completely avoidable by simply paying attention.

 

There will always be bad players behaving badly in MMOs. Either embrace it and manage around it at a personal level or give up MMOs IMO.

 

You people act like the other player is reaching through your computer monitor, hijacking your keyboard and setting your PvP flag for you.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You can't fix stupid, and you can't prevent all griefing. However that does not mean you shouldn't try to limit both.

 

Except... in this particular case... there is nothing that needs to be limited. This is a silly ploy used by lame players to catch careless and non-attentive players being... wait for it... careless and non-attentive.

 

If this were a game mechanic that enabled PvPers to force you into PvP by running through your AoE or something... then I would agree a change needs to be made. But this simply is NOT the case here.

 

Only the careless would fall for such a cheezy ploy as is being cried about here, IMO.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Andryah

[jstankaroslo]

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES in this thread already... I do NOT support the bad behaviors by other players. AND AT THE SAME TIME...this particular tear fest of this thread topic is completely avoidable by simply paying attention.

 

There will always be bad players behaving badly in MMOs. Either embrace it and manage around it at a personal level or give up MMOs IMO.

 

You people act like the other player is reaching through your computer monitor, hijacking your keyboard and setting your PvP flag for you.

 

And yet you are so fiercely against anything that could change this practice?

 

Hypocrite or useful idiot?

[DataBeaver]

And yet you are so fiercely against anything that could change this practice?

There may be an unvoiced argument of "I don't want the devs spending their precious time on that, when they could be doing <my_pet_feature> instead." In one case I even got someone speaking against XP multiplier toggle to admit that.

[Brewski]

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES in this thread already... I do NOT support the bad behaviors by other players. AND AT THE SAME TIME...this particular tear fest of this thread topic is completely avoidable by simply paying attention.

 

There will always be bad players behaving badly in MMOs. Either embrace it and manage around it at a personal level or give up MMOs IMO.

 

You people act like the other player is reaching through your computer monitor, hijacking your keyboard and setting your PvP flag for you.

 

Personally, I don't really care if they change this particular device in any way. What I would like to see is a change to the PvP flagging system in general that would fix not only this, but several other ploys people use to force flag. It's a long standing issue, and this is just the most recent iteration. Bioware has attempted on several occasions to fix this issue, and it keeps cropping back up.

 

Honestly, I just think it's time they fix the flagging system in general. A pair of checkboxes in the options menu is all this needs to solve it once and for all. One would allow you to be warned every time you were about to be flagged (which you can disable if you don't want the warning), and the other would prevent you from ever being auto-flagged outside a PvP area.

 

Then, if someone still gets auto-flagged, it means they not only were careless in their actions, they also specifically asked for it to be possible. No one would be able to whine about it anymore, and wouldn't that be better for all of us?

[LordArtemis]

And yet you are so fiercely against anything that could change this practice?

 

Hypocrite or useful idiot?

 

Not to speak for Andryah, who is more than capable of doing so without help, I would point out that it appears there is a lack of support based on the triviality of the request...and like I said before, I think that is the only reputable argument up to this point.

 

Some folks feel this is not an issue since it can be easily avoided....but I expect that Andryah would likely embrace the change if it is was implemented just like any other change like it.

 

I don't see strong opposition here. I do see strong opposition from others, but the intent there is pretty obvious in some cases.

 

I have always said that "you are dumb" is not a good enough reason to oppose any change. However, one could contend this is a non issue.

[jstankaroslo]

 

I don't see strong opposition here. I do see strong opposition from others, but the intent there is pretty obvious in some cases.

 

I have always said that "you are dumb" is not a good enough reason to oppose any change. However, one could contend this is a non issue.

 

I've seen like 15 long posts from her against any change/improvement on this thread. Seems pretty strong opposition to me.

If it was a non issue case, one could write one sentence and be done with the subject. Or not participate at all in a discussion that don't concern them, or is a non issue to them.

Instead I see her dominating the thread finding all kinds of arguments why THIS SHOULD NOT EVER GET CHANGED!

 

And I'm always a little shocked to see people fiercely opposing changes that could make many players' lives in-game easier. I don't know if it is an elitists attitude, hypocrisy, griefer morality or useful idiocy...

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think folks tend to call out fair individuals based more on perceived position in the community and less on the strength or merits of the arguments made.

 

At any rate, I do not agree with most of Andryahs views on this subject, but we do agree on one thing....this is a mistake that players make, and players need to take responsibility for that mistake.

 

You really can't discuss a change like this in a productive manner until you acknowledge the facts involved. Otherwise the discussion remains a pointing finger match that goes nowhere.

 

Obviously both sides are to blame, and in most cases neither side wishes to take responsibility for that.

Edited November 28, 2014 by LordArtemis

[AndoEyrune]

If nobody has suggested this yet (as im too lazy to read every single post) i think there should be a default setting where if you are not flagged for pvp and, whether by accident or intention, you try to attack a flagged person, a warning will come up. This option could be disabled in preferences for those who dislike it.

[LordArtemis]

If nobody has suggested this yet (as im too lazy to read every single post) i think there should be a default setting where if you are not flagged for pvp and, whether by accident or intention, you try to attack a flagged person, a warning will come up. This option could be disabled in preferences for those who dislike it.

 

The most popular suggestion in this thread so far works something like this....

 

An option in preferences that, when turned on, prevents you from attacking any flagged player unless you manual toggle your flag on. It would default to OFF.

 

The "manual flag" option would not work if you move into a PVP flagged area...you would still get the countdown and the flag if you remain.

[leihn]

It's not glib at all. It's an absolutely well thought out and considered opinion. You may disagree, but my opinion is my own.

 

Anyone who does either of the aforementioned behaviors is gaining joy at the expense of others. As I said, neither activity is technically illegal or against the rules, and I have not been affected by either personally. However, by intentionally trying to ruin the fun of one or more other players, they are negatively affecting the game.

 

We would be better off without them.

 

And that in your opinion cannot be balanced out by any number of ways they could also positively affect the game?

 

I'm not saying that all sinners are saints, but just assuming that someone who does something wrong can do no right is a very shallow perspective.

 

It seems unfair to automatically class everyone as valueless based on a single action that they partake in. Again, this doesn't affect me, nor do I partake in these types of things, but it is extremely narrow minded to assume that someone who does this could not also have positive impact on the game. They could be the most helpful person to their own faction, they could easily support the game financially through CM purchases, they could be very supportive of their guild and community, etc, but happen to engage in some 'questionable' (iyo) PvP tactics in OW PvP some of the time, automatically all of their contributions are null?

[LordArtemis]

I find it highly unlikely, though not possible, that someone that engages in this type of activity demonstrates high moral fiber. I find it more likely they are personally devoid of positive character traits, at least gameplay wise.

 

I also look very poorly on those that point the finger at folks that participate in this kind of predatory behavior instead of taking responsibility for the fact that a bit of awareness and caution could prevent this from being successful.

 

I have never fallen victim to this type of behavior when it was avoidable through cautious gameplay.

 

Both sides are to blame, and both sides should know better.

 

I wish to see the change for the betterment of the game. I think this is something that can turn off casual players from enjoying themselves, and anything like that is not good for the game IMO....even if they are at fault.

 

I DO NOT support the idea of a mandatory manual flag, nor do I support punishing those that engage in this type of vile behavior. The punishment will come in the inability to engage in predatory practices, and that punishment is well deserved IMO.

Edited November 28, 2014 by LordArtemis

[ivanhedgehog]

I find it highly unlikely, though not possible, that someone that engages in this type of activity demonstrates high moral fiber. I find it more likely they are personally devoid of positive character traits, at least gameplay wise.

 

I also look very poorly on those that point the finger at folks that participate in this kind of predatory behavior instead of taking responsibility for the fact that a bit of awareness and caution could prevent this from being successful.

 

I have never fallen victim to this type of behavior when it was avoidable through cautious gameplay.

 

Both sides are to blame, and both sides should know better.

 

I wish to see the change for the betterment of the game. I think this is something that can turn off casual players from enjoying themselves, and anything like that is not good for the game IMO....even if they are at fault.

 

I DO NOT support the idea of a mandatory manual flag, nor do I support punishing those that engage in this type of vile behavior. The punishment will come in the inability to engage in predatory practices, and that punishment is well deserved IMO.

 

they devs have chosen to not deal with problems such as this in the past. you have gold seller bots on the tech planets rotating in a circle shooting spawns to get to level 7 so they can spam fleet for hours on end. not dealt with..this discussion is most likely pointless due to lack of care from the devs.

[Andryah]

And yet you are so fiercely against anything that could change this practice?

 

Hypocrite or useful idiot?

 

I'm against dumbing down the game for careless people. Anyone that is even half-way attentive would never get caught by this sort of silliness.

 

Things that cannot be reasonably avoided (from a griefing perspective) in an MMO need to be fixed. This is NOT one of those things.

 

Why an MMO must be dumbed down to protect the careless is beyond me. I guess it's a symptom of the modern MMO player base. This, and other modern MMOs, are actually quite good at allowing casual play without hindering the player. That said, even modern MMOs are not going to give players complete immunity to carelessness, nor should they IMO.

 

TL;DR: careless is careless, and it results in outcomes that would teach most intelligent human beings to simply be a bit more careful.

 

I know that analogies do not generally work well in the forum as people conflate and distort right over top of them.... but here is one anyway --> When a child puts their finger in an open light socket, generally speaking Physics rewards them with a warning to not do it again. A child that insists on continually putting their finger in more light sockets... is looking for pain. A child that demands that the electric company remove all the light sockets instead is being ... an immature child.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I've seen like 15 long posts from her against any change/improvement on this thread. Seems pretty strong opposition to me.

 

Absurd much?

 

If you can't quote the 15 long posts... then you are exaggerating.

 

but I tell you what... I'll get to work on the post count so that you do not look quite so hyperbolic. Nothing I can do about your being negatively judgmental though... you have to work that out on your own.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I find it highly unlikely, though not possible, that someone that engages in this type of activity demonstrates high moral fiber. I find it more likely they are personally devoid of positive character traits, at least gameplay wise.

 

I also look very poorly on those that point the finger at folks that participate in this kind of predatory behavior instead of taking responsibility for the fact that a bit of awareness and caution could prevent this from being successful.

 

100% agree with you on this LA.

[Andryah]

Personally, I don't really care if they change this particular device in any way. What I would like to see is a change to the PvP flagging system in general that would fix not only this, but several other ploys people use to force flag. It's a long standing issue, and this is just the most recent iteration. Bioware has attempted on several occasions to fix this issue, and it keeps cropping back up.

 

I understand your viewpoint. I simply do not agree with it. I do agree that specific exploit holes in PvE triggering PvP (such as a flagged player running through AoE). But that's about fixing a hole that is being exploited.

 

I do not support a local hard switch on PvP for players. I agree that exploits should be fixed, and they have over time in this game. There is no need to rework the flagging system itself to address such exploits, which is why I disagree with the viewpoint.