Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?

[Max_Killjoy]

The game doesn't need to cater to people who insist on playing terribly. It's not going to change. Deal with it.

 

People will play terribly no matter what changes are made to the system, that's the reality.

 

Ok. Imagine we are back in 2.0 55 HM just got out. Gear you have avaible isn't overgeared in a way that allow someone to basicly solo the fp. Average DPS pull about 2750 DPS. You need 6000 DPS to kill the boss or it enrage and wipe your group. An average group will pull about 6500 DPS (2750+2750+1000). They can down the boss

 

Now one of the DPS can't pull over 1500 DPS (may it be his gear, his spec or his rotation). Now you pull 5250 DPS and hit enrage and wipe.

 

Same can be seen with DTPS - heals. It is just harder to see what the problem is. Is the tank taking too much damage because of a bad DCD rotation, a bad sustained defensive debuffs?? Or is the healer not healing enough??

 

All in all, the only reason we can currently get away with people well bellow the lower end of any content is because how overgeared people are right now. You have no idea how many KDY (KDY being the easiest content in this game by far) wipe I've seen from people who just didn't know how to play and wouldn't listen.

 

And people who choose to go another route with their characters shouldn't be doing content that demands a numerical performance they can't generate with that build.

 

There are people who understand that and don't take those characters into content they aren't suited for -- but to the people on the warpath, that doesn't matter, screw the harmless ones as long as the jerks get wiped out, right? Just another instance of people who aren't doing anything wrong being penalized to supposedly make sure that people who are doing something wrong are "prevented" from doing it... never mind that they'll do it anyway or just find another way.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

So wait you want whatever gives you the maximum amount of boring? I like my classes and specs to be engaging, not brain dead.

 

A bunch of extra crap to manage isn't more "engaging". I'd rather concentrate on the combat, the character, the stories, anything else, besides yet another "has this one bit built up to where I trigger this second bit and use those other bits until the charges that bit #2 gave me run out and then I need to watch bit #1 again" mechanic, on top of a bunch of conditionals and counters and crap on timers and...

 

That's why I hate what the new system is doing to the Merc -- Supercharge is just another boring dull distracting pathetic cookie-cutter ridiculous conditional build-up mechanic.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Halinalle]

"Don't take choices away from us! Instead copy PoE skill system!"

 

I really don't understand.

 

That's why I hate what the new system is doing to the Merc -- Supercharge is just another boring dull distracting pathetic cookie-cutter ridiculous conditional build-up mechanic.

 

Bodyguard.

It has been part of it longer than I can remember and Merc is considered to be hardest healing class to master.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Halinalle

[Max_Killjoy]

"Don't take choices away from us! Instead copy PoE skill system!"

 

I really don't understand.

 

POE? Power Over Internet?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Halinalle]

"PoE"?

 

Path of Exile

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/11/113923/2410119-skill_tree.png

 

Like you can see, there's a lot of choices but AFAIK only two builds that actually work.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Halinalle

[Max_Killjoy]

Path of Exile

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/11/113923/2410119-skill_tree.png

 

Like you can see, there's a lot of choices but AFAIK only two builds that actually work.

 

It's... certainly deep.

 

Probably not the optimal solution.

 

 

Bodyguard.

It has been part of it longer than I can remember and Merc is considered to be hardest healing class to master.

 

So they're taking the mechanic from that cylinder and applying it to all Mercs.

 

Damnit, if I wanted to use that cylinder, I'd be loading it already, instead of the good one.

 

Will probably just not buy those three skills and ignore that stupid system.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Turajin]

It comes down to people don't like change. That's it.

Correction: it comes down to people not liking this particular change. Not liking this particular change doesn't mean I'm opposed to every change.

 

I'm glad they aren't devs. Some of the ideas they have would break this game.

Well, from my point of view the devs are about to brake the game, so I'd say it would be better we would be the developers...

 

Because the vast majority of people complaining about Disciplines are clinging desperately to their hybrid builds.

OK, sure you can come up with exact numbers of "how many people are complaining" and how many of them do it because they want hybrids. Go ahead, I'm waiting for the numbers. Obviously, you must have them at hand. So, give us the numbers.

 

And the whole idea that "if enough people complain BW isn't going to switch over" is a pip dream. And those who insist it isn't seem to (often) have this idea of how they are important enough to stop the change.

It's not a "pip dream" (whatever that means). If enough people are pissed because the new system is big BS (from their point of view) and unsub, BW will make less money. If enough people go, BW will lose enough money to make them think why people unsub. And mybe it will make them undo the changes that made those people unsub.

 

Ok. Imagine we are back in 2.0 55 HM /QUOTE]

Well... not everyone does that HM-BS. I never did a HM mission, and I never will... o I don't care in how far stuff is balanced for that or not. If the new system fixes that... no idea, but it does break something on the other end, and that's the end I like, so no, I don't want my gaming style reduced and being less entertaining just so that you can do your stupid NM stuff.

[Djiini]

"Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?"

 

You're right, there isn't. Thanks for asking.

Why did this thread require multiple pages?

[Levram]

"Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?"

 

You're right, there isn't. Thanks for asking.

Why did this thread require multiple pages?

 

The answer to the question required a literary analysis of Green Eggs and Ham, as well as a comparative analysis of salty fish eggs, mushrooms and hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

 

You know, "the basics."

[Reno_Tarshil]

Correction: it comes down to people not liking this particular change. Not liking this particular change doesn't mean I'm opposed to every change.

 

 

Well, from my point of view the devs are about to brake the game, so I'd say it would be better we would be the developers...

 

 

OK, sure you can come up with exact numbers of "how many people are complaining" and how many of them do it because they want hybrids. Go ahead, I'm waiting for the numbers. Obviously, you must have them at hand. So, give us the numbers.

 

 

It's not a "pip dream" (whatever that means). If enough people are pissed because the new system is big BS (from their point of view) and unsub, BW will make less money. If enough people go, BW will lose enough money to make them think why people unsub. And mybe it will make them undo the changes that made those people unsub.

 

Ok. Imagine we are back in 2.0 55 HM

Well... not everyone does that HM-BS. I never did a HM mission, and I never will... o I don't care in how far stuff is balanced for that or not. If the new system fixes that... no idea, but it does break something on the other end, and that's the end I like, so no, I don't want my gaming style reduced and being less entertaining just so that you can do your stupid NM stuff.

 

I find it hilarious that you called him out for incorrectly spelling pipe dream, when you used brake instead of break.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Reno_Tarshil

[Zoom_VI]

A bunch of extra crap to manage isn't more "engaging". I'd rather concentrate on the combat, the character, the stories, anything else, besides yet another "has this one bit built up to where I trigger this second bit and use those other bits until the charges that bit #2 gave me run out and then I need to watch bit #1 again" mechanic, on top of a bunch of conditionals and counters and crap on timers and...

 

That's why I hate what the new system is doing to the Merc -- Supercharge is just another boring dull distracting pathetic cookie-cutter ridiculous conditional build-up mechanic.

 

Correction, it isn't engaging for you.

 

I personally am looking forward to arsenal being more involved than spamming 123412341234.

 

Also you really need to stop calling stuff "cookie-cutter" because I really don't think you know what that means.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Max_Killjoy]

Correction, it isn't engaging for you.

 

I personally am looking forward to arsenal being more involved than spamming 123412341234.

 

Also you really need to stop calling stuff "cookie-cutter" because I really don't think you know what that means.

 

Cookie-cutter -- "lack of originality or distinction". As in, "Let's make sure every AC and spec has a build-up boost for the player to keep track of."

 

Arsenal already is more involved than "1234etc", if you're actually trying. I don't know, maybe the rotation is really simple when you're DPSing a boss in the "engaging and challenging" endgame content, but out in the rest of the game, a lot more of the arsenal gets regular use.

 

(And no, these are not ordered as a rotation.)

 

Rapid Shots

Tracer Missile

Unload

Heatseaker Missiles

Railshot

Electro Dart

Electro Net

Explosive Dart

Death From Above

Fusion Missile

Concussion Missile

Hydraulic Overrides

Disabling Shot

Jet Boost

Determination

Shield

Vent Heat

Power Surge

Thermal Override

Cure

Kolto Missile (if you need to throw in a heal)

Kolto Overload (if things get hairy)

Missile Blast (if you need a knockdown / interrupt)

Rocket Punch (if something gets into melee range and you need an instant attack)

Flamethrower (if you get swarmed)

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[vingmotor]

yea i fear its gonna be a really boring game. they take away the rpg in the mmo.

whom is it for anyways? 12 year olds?

i sence a great disturbence and its the new system.

remember galaxies? why do the same crap over again and destroy a perfectly fine game?

concentrate on making new stories and classes and whatnot instead.

-rant off.

bioware has absolutly no communication with the community that acctually is playing their game, its sad.

-rant off again lol.

[Ryuku-sama]

Rapid Shots : Heat Vent, shouldn't be used if you aren't about to dip over 40% heat.

Tracer Missile : Core rotation ability.

Unload : Core rotation ability.

Heatseaker Missiles : Core rotation ability.

Railshot : Core rotation ability.

Electro Dart : Stun. Doesn't affect bosses. Very situationnal. Not part of the core rotation.

Electro Net : More considered as an offensive CD (on bosses with CC immunity) or a burst CC (on players and trash). Not part of the core rotation.

Explosive Dart : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Death From Above : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Fusion Missile : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Concussion Missile : Mezz. Situationnal. Useful for hard trash pulls. Not part of the core rotation.

Disabling Shot : Interrupt. Situationnal, not part of the core rotation.

Jet Boost : Knockback. Situationnal. Not part of the core rotation.

Determination : CC breaker. Defensive CD.

Shield : Defensive CD.

Vent Heat : Offensive CD.

Power Surge : Offensive CD.

Thermal Override : Offensive CD.

Cure : Off heals ability.

Kolto Missile (if you need to throw in a heal) : Off heal ability.

Kolto Overload (if things get hairy) : Defensive CD.

Missile Blast (if you need a knockdown / interrupt) : Only useful on weak/standard trash. Situationnal. To never use outside of the situation above. Not part of the core rotation.

Rocket Punch (if something gets into melee range and you need an instant attack) : Root (Afterburner talent in Arsenal soon to be utility). Situational. Not part of the core rotation.

Flamethrower (if you get swarmed) : AoE. Only useful if you can hit over 4 targets with it. Not part of the core rotation.

 

 

So basicly 4 abilities + auto attack are part of the core rotation. 4 are used in AoE situations. Everything else is of situationnal use or a DCD/OCD.

 

When someone say a rotation of 4 abilities, it means 4 core ration abilities + auto attack.

[Max_Killjoy]

Rapid Shots : Heat Vent, shouldn't be used if you aren't about to dip over 40% heat.

Tracer Missile : Core rotation ability.

Unload : Core rotation ability.

Heatseaker Missiles : Core rotation ability.

Railshot : Core rotation ability.

Electro Dart : Stun. Doesn't affect bosses. Very situationnal. Not part of the core rotation.

Electro Net : More considered as an offensive CD (on bosses with CC immunity) or a burst CC (on players and trash). Not part of the core rotation.

Explosive Dart : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Death From Above : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Fusion Missile : AoE usful only when it hits 4 targets. Not part of the core rotation.

Concussion Missile : Mezz. Situationnal. Useful for hard trash pulls. Not part of the core rotation.

Disabling Shot : Interrupt. Situationnal, not part of the core rotation.

Jet Boost : Knockback. Situationnal. Not part of the core rotation.

Determination : CC breaker. Defensive CD.

Shield : Defensive CD.

Vent Heat : Offensive CD.

Power Surge : Offensive CD.

Thermal Override : Offensive CD.

Cure : Off heals ability.

Kolto Missile (if you need to throw in a heal) : Off heal ability.

Kolto Overload (if things get hairy) : Defensive CD.

Missile Blast (if you need a knockdown / interrupt) : Only useful on weak/standard trash. Situationnal. To never use outside of the situation above. Not part of the core rotation.

Rocket Punch (if something gets into melee range and you need an instant attack) : Root (Afterburner talent in Arsenal soon to be utility). Situational. Not part of the core rotation.

Flamethrower (if you get swarmed) : AoE. Only useful if you can hit over 4 targets with it. Not part of the core rotation.

 

 

So basicly 4 abilities + auto attack are part of the core rotation. 4 are used in AoE situations. Everything else is of situationnal use or a DCD/OCD.

 

When someone say a rotation of 4 abilities, it means 4 core ration abilities + auto attack.

 

"Not part of the core rotation" as used in your post is pretty much code for "not used when DPSing a boss in an ops or FP". What about the other 99% of the game? Or is this where we get into the silliness of endgame and PvP elitism, where nothing else in the game counts except for that little sliver of content that many players aren't even bothering with?

 

I'm sorry that the "best" content in the game is set up to make most of the class's abilities pointless in that content, but why should the rest of us have to put up with extra headaches just to make players who concentrate on that "best" content feel "challenged"?

 

(On a side note, notice that neither of us even mentioned Power Shot, now there's a pointless ability if you're an Arsenal Merc...)

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Ryuku-sama]

"Not part of the core rotation" as used in your post is pretty much code for "not used when DPSing a boss in an ops or FP". What about the other 99% of the game? Or is this where we get into the silliness of endgame and PvP elitism, where nothing else in the game counts except for that little sliver of content that many players aren't even bothering with?

 

I'm sorry that the "best" content in the game is set up to make most of the class's abilities pointless in that content, but why should the rest of us have to put up with extra headaches just to make players who concentrate on that "best" content feel "challenged"?

 

(On a side note, notice that neither of us even mentioned Power Shot, now there's a pointless ability if you're an Arsenal Merc...)

 

Again you misunderstood. Situtionnal use is very often used in PvP and PvE. They aren't just used on cooldown. They aren,t spammed through the rotation. Exception to this is Missile Blast which is used in a total of two situation : emergency interrupt on a weak/standard trash that won't die from any of your other abilities while you need to interrupt it and to stop a cap in PvP when everyone is stacked on the node/door/whatever.

 

Stuns, mezzes, roots, slows are used in PvE. Just not on CD. Just not to maximize DPS. You use them when you need it to reduce incoming damage most of the time.

 

DCD and OCD are kinda harder to place. DCD's are used when they are needed. WHen you know what will happens next and have to mitigate it. Exception to this is when you're tanking (solo player is ALWAYS tanking) and you need to reduce incoming damage. Other exception is about Kolto Overload and other abilities that are conditionnal. OCD are used whenever you need to squeeze more damage.

 

I'm not saying any of the abilities you're naming is not useful, 'cause they are. I'm just asking you to make the distinction between a rotationnal ability and a situationnal ability. Would you use Missile Blast if you don't need to interrupt a weak/standard trash and can't kill it before its cast goes off? No. Would you use Electro Dart on a CC-mmune enemy?? No (and yes there are cc-immune enemy that aren't fp/ops bosses). Would you use Flamethrower on a single target?? No. Unload would do much more damage.

 

Then about the abilities you forgot.

Power Shot is useful WHEN you have been interrupted and can't use Tracer Missile while everything else is on CD and you need to proc Barrage. But honestly, there are mny way to play without using Power Shot in this situation. This happens only in PvP tho.

 

Hydraulic Overides. Makes you immune to movement impairing effects and physics (exception to scripted events). Extremely useful for kiting. Will be even more useful in 3.0 with Unload/Blazing Bolt on the move. Another DCD.

 

Chaff Flare. If you have Decoy, which is awesome in PvP, you can waste the next F/T attack that hits you. Pretty powerful. And I didn't talk about the threat drop since if you are solo'ing you don,t really have something to drop threat to except a tank comp.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Max_Killjoy]

Again you misunderstood. Situtionnal use is very often used in PvP and PvE. They aren't just used on cooldown. They aren,t spammed through the rotation. Exception to this is Missile Blast which is used in a total of two situation : emergency interrupt on a weak/standard trash that won't die from any of your other abilities while you need to interrupt it and to stop a cap in PvP when everyone is stacked on the node/door/whatever.

 

Stuns, mezzes, roots, slows are used in PvE. Just not on CD. Just not to maximize DPS. You use them when you need it to reduce incoming damage most of the time.

 

DCD and OCD are kinda harder to place. DCD's are used when they are needed. WHen you know what will happens next and have to mitigate it. Exception to this is when you're tanking (solo player is ALWAYS tanking) and you need to reduce incoming damage. Other exception is about Kolto Overload and other abilities that are conditionnal. OCD are used whenever you need to squeeze more damage.

 

I'm not saying any of the abilities you're naming is not useful, 'cause they are. I'm just asking you to make the distinction between a rotationnal ability and a situationnal ability. Would you use Missile Blast if you don't need to interrupt a weak/standard trash and can't kill it before its cast goes off? No. Would you use Electro Dart on a CC-mmune enemy?? No (and yes there are cc-immune enemy that aren't fp/ops bosses). Would you use Flamethrower on a single target?? No. Unload would do much more damage.

 

Then about the abilities you forgot.

Power Shot is useful WHEN you have been interrupted and can't use Tracer Missile while everything else is on CD and you need to proc Barrage. But honestly, there are mny way to play without using Power Shot in this situation. This happens only in PvP tho.

 

Hydraulic Overides. Makes you immune to movement impairing effects and physics (exception to scripted events). Extremely useful for kiting. Will be even more useful in 3.0 with Unload/Blazing Bolt on the move. Another DCD.

 

Chaff Flare. If you have Decoy, which is awesome in PvP, you can waste the next F/T attack that hits you. Pretty powerful. And I didn't talk about the threat drop since if you are solo'ing you don,t really have something to drop threat to except a tank comp.

 

Actually, I did list Hydraulic Override. Chaff Flare was an omission on my part.

 

The point of the list wasn't to argue about the definition of "rotation", it was to demonstrate how silly it was for someone to claim that Arsenal is a 4-button snoozefest (and by implication, that shoehorning the Supercharge mechanic into Arsenal and was-Pyro specs will save it from being so supposedly boring).

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[randont]

The fact is games are about fun. Will the game be as fun with less variation in choice of class individuality? No argument that they would be harder to balance, but is the added work worth it? In my opinion it is. Dumbing down the game when it is already simple is not the answer. I just hope they keep that in mind as they roll out a drastically different new change to a game that's actually pretty damn good as is. Good luck devs I'm afraid you're going to need it!

[Ryuku-sama]

Actually, I did list Hydraulic Override. Chaff Flare was an omission on my part.

 

The point of the list wasn't to argue about the definition of "rotation", it was to demonstrate how silly it was for someone to claim that Arsenal is a 4-button snoozefest (and by implication, that shoehorning the Supercharge mechanic into Arsenal and was-Pyro specs will save it from being so supposedly boring).

 

Well it gives you an aditionnal button to press every time it's avaible. But it will just make Arsenal a 5-buttons snoozefest. IMO there are like two specs that can really be thought of hard in this game. Deception with its lack of rythm (note I never played one so I could be able to find it a rythm if i get an Sin/Shadow) and old Carnage with its HEAVY RNG. Right now, Carnage is plain simple.

 

The fun and challenge comes from timing everything together along the mechanics and thinking ahead of your opponents in PvP. Not from remembering a 4/5/6/7-buttons snoozefest.

[MillionsKNives]

The fact is games are about fun. Will the game be as fun with less variation in choice of class individuality? No argument that they would be harder to balance, but is the added work worth it? In my opinion it is. Dumbing down the game when it is already simple is not the answer. I just hope they keep that in mind as they roll out a drastically different new change to a game that's actually pretty damn good as is. Good luck devs I'm afraid you're going to need it!

 

Very few people actually care about the tree system as anything more than a means to an end. Almost everyone uses the same exact trees, because there are very few true choices in the tree. If you deviate from that path you're just neutering yourself. BioWare has the data, you're a very minor component of the game's population. So no, the extra dev time to satisfy a tiny portion of the player base that doesn't want to play correctly is not worth it.

 

http://xkcd.com/1172/ Incredibly relevant to this thread.

Edited November 16, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Max_Killjoy]

[quote=MillionsKNives;7804524

]Very few people actually care about the tree system as anything more than a means to an end. Almost everyone uses the same exact trees, because there are very few true choices in the tree. If you deviate from that path you're just neutering yourself. BioWare has the data, you're a very minor component of the game's population. So no, the extra dev time to satisfy a tiny portion of the player base that doesn't want to play correctly is not worth it.

 

Speaking of catering to small minorities, most players probably aren't forum-trawling, Dulfy-addicted, FOTM-copying, min-maxing endgame/PvP elitists, either.

 

See how that works? Now the effect of changes on their gameplay are also meaningless, and we can ignore them too.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Zoom_VI]

Speaking of catering to small minorities, most players probably aren't forum-trawling, Dulfy-addicted, FOTM-copying, min-maxing endgame/PvP elitists, either.

 

Because belittling everyone who disagrees with you totally makes you right. And playing a spec in a way that gives the best output doesn't make someone dulfy-addicted or FOTM. And you really need to stop calling stuff FOTM because you clearly don't understand what FOTM even means.

[Turajin]

I find it hilarious that you called him out for incorrectly spelling pipe dream, when you used brake instead of break.

???

I didn't call out on the spelling, I asked what that that term means. I got no idea (english is not my native tongue).

[Max_Killjoy]

Because belittling everyone who disagrees with you totally makes you right. And playing a spec in a way that gives the best output doesn't make someone dulfy-addicted or FOTM. And you really need to stop calling stuff FOTM because you clearly don't understand what FOTM even means.

 

"Flavor of the month."

 

Did I fail to make the heavy dose of intentional irony and turnabout in my post crystal clear?

 

The point was to demonstrate how ridiculous this "You're a ______ (some demeaning comment) and a minority, so Bioware should ignore you and ignore what effect changes have on you." argument is.

[Halinalle]

Dulfy-addicted, FOTM-copying

 

For leveling and damage/threat/healing in PvE, do you:

- select talents that don't give more damage/threat/healing but do something annoying to your enemy

- select talents that increase your damage/threat/healing

 

Yeah, I thought so.

 

It's quite difficult to not play FOTM classes when you have all ACs.

I have 2 Shadows, 2 Assassins, 2 Sentinels, 2 Operatives, 2 Powertechs, 2 Sorcerers, 2 Sages and 1 of every other AC.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Halinalle