Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?

[Max_Killjoy]

You'll take your new system and you'll like it.

 

See above, troll.

[Arkerus]

See above, troll.

 

You'll take the system and enjoy it to its maximum. You will not miss the old system.

[Max_Killjoy]

You'll take the system and enjoy it to its maximum. You will not miss the old system.

 

Since you have nothing to add but infantile flailing... ignore list +1 occupant.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Arkerus]

Since you have nothing to add but infantile flailing... ignore list +1 occupant.

 

There isn't a point in talking to anyone like you because your flailing and wailing for something that isn't going to happen.

 

You are not a game developer.

 

The reasons have been explained. No hybrids, simplify, expand, add real dynamic choices.

 

End of story.

 

It comes down to people don't like change. That's it. But you'll get over it.

[Halinalle]

You are not a game developer.

 

I'm glad they aren't devs. Some of the ideas they have would break this game.

[Arkerus]

I'm glad they aren't devs. Some of the ideas they have would break this game.

 

I know.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm glad they aren't devs. Some of the ideas they have would break this game.

 

How about just being opposed to ideas that make the game worse, even if they come from Bioware?

 

Or is even that too much, and we're supposed to just smile and be grateful for whatever bowl of crap we're handed?

[LyraineAlei]

How about just being opposed to ideas that make the game worse, even if they come from Bioware?

 

Or is even that too much, and we're supposed to just smile and be grateful for whatever bowl of crap we're handed?

 

You can be opposed to an idea, but you have to admit, your opposition isn't going to change a damn thing.

 

Don't like the idea, and don't like that it's changing without your permission? Leave the game. Or adapt. Reminisce about the good ol' days with hybrid builds and BW devs having to Nerf them and abilities because they never intended for hybrids. And then move on.

 

Sorry for the loss of your "unique" hybrid build, but it isn't coming back.

[Max_Killjoy]

You can be opposed to an idea, but you have to admit, your opposition isn't going to change a damn thing.

 

Don't like the idea, and don't like that it's changing without your permission? Leave the game. Or adapt. Reminisce about the good ol' days with hybrid builds and BW devs having to Nerf them and abilities because they never intended for hybrids. And then move on.

 

Sorry for the loss of your "unique" hybrid build, but it isn't coming back.

 

Why would you resort to trying to paint opposition to the change as someone just clinging to a particular build, instead of that opposition arising from broader issues with the basic concept that's being dumped on the game? Why would you include snide tangents like "without your permission"?

 

Normally you're better that that.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[BuriDogshin]

You can be opposed to an idea, but you have to admit, your opposition isn't going to change a damn thing.

His opposition to it might cause him to quit the game, so something good could come of it.

Every game needs players, but no game needs every player.

Edited November 15, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[LyraineAlei]

Why would you resort to trying to paint opposition to the change as someone just clinging to a particular build, instead of that opposition arising from broader issues with the basic concept that's being dumped on the game? Why would you include snide tangents like "without your permission"?

 

Normally you're better that that.

 

Because the vast majority of people complaining about Disciplines are clinging desperately to their hybrid builds.

 

And the whole idea that "if enough people complain BW isn't going to switch over" is a pip dream. And those who insist it isn't seem to (often) have this idea of how they are important enough to stop the change.

 

From my reading, they're doing this to end the hybrids forever, and to make balancing the game easier on them. No more moving key Heal abilities even further up the Healing Trees to keep DPS/Heals from being over powered, for example.

 

Yes, bad players will be bad, but if those bad players never had the in-game sources to learn to be good, then anyone who doesn't play MMOs on a regular basis will be bad.

 

Newbies to MMOs can learn how to be mediocre healers with Disciplines. Or DPS without face rolling and over threading the tank. Or Tanks who might learn to use taunt properly and how to manage threat.

 

This isn't going to fix the bad players problem on the whole, but not all new players know about Dulfy, Torhead, Swtor-spy, or the other websites that help people learn what to do in-game.

 

I'm not saying Discipline will be great or horrible. I'm just saying until recently we didn't have enough information to make a good call.

 

IMO, Disciplines doesn't look too bad. I'm going to miss a few passives I liked having, but it won't be too bad. Or at least not the end of SWTOR, from my point of view.

[randont]

Eating cooked food and hitting yourself with a hammer and a car are two different things.

Wow, very astute observation!

[LordArtemis]

It comes down to people don't like change. That's it. But you'll get over it.

 

Actually it does not necessarily come down to that Arkerus. One could say that people are wary of change, but many changes have been made to the game that people requested and enjoy to this day.

 

It is probably more accurate to state that people do not tend to care for major function changes in a game, and this appears like it might be a change that fits that description.

 

Though I think it is not as drastic a change as folks believe...it is simply removing the illusion of choice. But that's me.

[LordArtemis]

Because the vast majority of people complaining about Disciplines are clinging desperately to their hybrid builds..

 

I think that is a fair observation. I have my concerns, but even I agree that removing the ability to create crazy hybrids is good for ALL players, especially if it reduces the frequency of changes to abilities and gameplay which is MUCH MORE TOXIC to the game IMO.

[MisterBlackJack]

They could also just put up with it despite their enjoyment of the game being diminished, because of other things they still like about the game.

 

This is what Bioware has to be hoping for, unless they're so out of touch or just plain delusional that they really believe that this is going to actually make the game better for more people than it makes it worse for.

 

There will still be bad players, there will still be players who think they can "play their way" and still inflict themselves on high-end content, there will still be players who play melee classes at range and ranged classes in melee, there will still be players who put Willpower gear on their Knight "because Force powers", there will still be real balance issues, there will still be imaginary balance issues from PvPers who are butthurt that they can't faceroll some other class, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

There ARE a lot of people who think this will make the game better

[Max_Killjoy]

Actually it does not necessarily come down to that Arkerus. One could say that people are wary of change, but many changes have been made to the game that people requested and enjoy to this day.

 

It is probably more accurate to state that people do not tend to care for major function changes in a game, and this appears like it might be a change that fits that description.

 

Though I think it is not as drastic a change as folks believe...it is simply removing the illusion of choice. But that's me.

 

The thing is, the choice it's removing is only an illusion if you make some very distinct but so very often unspoken assumptions, chief of which is that every player is chasing the last 0.1% damage / heals / defense they could wring out of the system and that this is the only and absolute criteria by which to judge any build.

 

The smug notion some hold that "we'll get over it" is so much crap. It's just an easy, intellectually cheap way for people in favor of any particular change to dismiss the concerns of others and the negative impacts it might have.

 

Some of us will deal with it and keep playing, some of us will in fact walk away from the game, but very few of us are going to just "get over it".

 

I can say that if they'd announced Disciplines with or before the SoR announcement, I would not have per-ordered SoR.

 

I think that is a fair observation. I have my concerns, but even I agree that removing the ability to create crazy hybrids is good for ALL players, especially if it reduces the frequency of changes to abilities and gameplay which is MUCH MORE TOXIC to the game IMO.

 

Thing is, Disciplines won't stop the constant tweaking, or the balance issues real or perceived*, or any of the things the change will supposedly improve -- the similar moves in other games didn't do anything to actually improve the situation for those games, either.

 

The ONLY reason given for the change so far that makes ANY sense what so ever is the issue with adding additional levels causing the old system to fray at the seems. There had to be a way to fix that, that didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but evidently it was beyond their capacity.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Cordarn]

How about just being opposed to ideas that make the game worse, even if they come from Bioware?

 

Or is even that too much, and we're supposed to just smile and be grateful for whatever bowl of crap we're handed?

 

Being opposed to ideas that you think make the game worse is fine and your opinion, But its just that, your opinion. No one will be able to actually give an accurate judgement of the disciplines system until they've tried it anyways.

[Max_Killjoy]

Being opposed to ideas that you think make the game worse is fine and your opinion, But its just that, your opinion. No one will be able to actually give an accurate judgement of the disciplines system until they've tried it anyways.

 

The previews make it pretty clear what they're going to be like, it's not rocket surgery.

[LordArtemis]

The thing is, the choice it's removing is only an illusion if you make some very distinct but so very often unspoken assumptions, chief of which is that every player is chasing the last 0.1% damage / heals / defense they could wring out of the system and that this is the only and absolute criteria by which to judge any build.

 

The smug notion some hold that "we'll get over it" is so much crap. It's just an easy, intellectually cheap way for people in favor of any particular change to dismiss the concerns of others and the negative impacts it might have.

 

Some of us will deal with it and keep playing, some of us will in fact walk away from the game, but very few of us are going to just "get over it".

 

I can say that if they'd announced Disciplines with or before the SoR announcement, I would not have per-ordered SoR.

 

 

 

Thing is, Disciplines won't stop the constant tweaking, or the balance issues real or perceived*, or any of the things the change will supposedly improve -- the similar moves in other games didn't do anything to actually improve the situation for those games, either.

 

The ONLY reason given for the change so far that makes ANY sense what so ever is the issue with adding additional levels causing the old system to fray at the seems. There had to be a way to fix that, that didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but evidently it was beyond their capacity.

 

If it turns out that this change does not reduce the frequency of changes to abilities that we had before it came to be, then I would contend that perhaps this was not the best change to make, regardless of the reason.

 

The only viable reason to the majority playerbase, IMO of course, is to remove the frequency of core ability changes for the sake of a minority of the playerbase. If it does not accomplish that, and turns out to be unpalatable to the majority of players this will not have been a wise choice.

 

However, I expect that will not be the case, and I also expect that most....not all, but most will likely find little issue with the new system if it does provide some sense of regularity when it comes to abilities and gameplay.

[Ryuku-sama]

The thing is, the choice it's removing is only an illusion if you make some very distinct but so very often unspoken assumptions, chief of which is that every player is chasing the last 0.1% damage / heals / defense they could wring out of the system and that this is the only and absolute criteria by which to judge any build

 

I said it to you times and times Max. It isn't about 0.1% It's about DPS differance going from 10 to 50% depending on exactly which build we are talking about.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Max_Killjoy]

I said it to you times and times Max. It isn't about 0.1% It's about DPS differance going from 10 to 50% depending on exactly which build we are talking about.

 

First of all, it might as well be 0.1% for all the damns I don't actually give.

 

Second, if 50% is not hyperbole, then... again, who cares? I really don't care if someone is doing more damage than I am and going through content faster, it has nothing to do with me.

 

Personally, on several ACs, I'd rather just load up on the passives and call it a day.

[Ryuku-sama]

First of all, it might as well be 0.1% for all the damns I don't actually give.

 

Second, if 50% is not hyperbole, then... again, who cares? I really don't care if someone is doing more damage than I am and going through content faster, it has nothing to do with me.

 

Personally, on several ACs, I'd rather just load up on the passives and call it a day.

 

Ok. Imagine we are back in 2.0 55 HM just got out. Gear you have avaible isn't overgeared in a way that allow someone to basicly solo the fp. Average DPS pull about 2750 DPS. You need 6000 DPS to kill the boss or it enrage and wipe your group. An average group will pull about 6500 DPS (2750+2750+1000). They can down the boss

 

Now one of the DPS can't pull over 1500 DPS (may it be his gear, his spec or his rotation). Now you pull 5250 DPS and hit enrage and wipe.

 

Same can be seen with DTPS - heals. It is just harder to see what the problem is. Is the tank taking too much damage because of a bad DCD rotation, a bad sustained defensive debuffs?? Or is the healer not healing enough??

 

All in all, the only reason we can currently get away with people well bellow the lower end of any content is because how overgeared people are right now. You have no idea how many KDY (KDY being the easiest content in this game by far) wipe I've seen from people who just didn't know how to play and wouldn't listen.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[Darth_Advent]

It's a little thing, but the elimination of point-spending makes me friendlier to the prospect of healing more often. Now that I just have to switch a few utilities here and there instead of memorize or look up an optimal point distribution every time, that's just the minor quality of life difference I'd need to feel like I can be bothered to swap roles.

 

Doesn't hurt that it looks like gearing heals vs. dps won't be as much trouble for sorcerers and sages come SoR too.

[MillionsKNives]

First of all, it might as well be 0.1% for all the damns I don't actually give.

 

Second, if 50% is not hyperbole, then... again, who cares? I really don't care if someone is doing more damage than I am and going through content faster, it has nothing to do with me.

 

Personally, on several ACs, I'd rather just load up on the passives and call it a day.

 

The game doesn't need to cater to people who insist on playing terribly. It's not going to change. Deal with it.

[Zoom_VI]

I'd rather just load up on the passives and call it a day.

So wait you want whatever gives you the maximum amount of boring? I like my classes and specs to be engaging, not brain dead.