Will Defense/Shield/Absorb work properly in 3.0?

[Loadsamunny]

Meaning, will they actually mitigate the full amount of damage they should be doing against all attacks by other players in Warzones/duels (including Force/Tech)? OR still only doing about 30% as others are claiming they do right now?

 

I want to stack MITIGATION for PvP in 3.0, not HP.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[funkiestj]

as far as I can tell shields work as advertised. What do you want changed?

• Do you want crits to be shielded?
  
• Do you want internal/elemental damage to be shielded?
  

or both of these?

 

Shielding only melee/ranged attacks was worthless for PvP (pre 2.0?). The current state of shielding seems reasonable to me (all damage except internal/elemental can be shielded).

[Loadsamunny]

as far as I can tell shields work as advertised. What do you want changed?

• Do you want crits to be shielded?
  
• Do you want internal/elemental damage to be shielded?
  

or both of these?

 

Shielding only melee/ranged attacks was worthless for PvP (pre 2.0?). The current state of shielding seems reasonable to me (all damage except internal/elemental can be shielded).

 

When was it changed? Because I was told that at present, Defense, Shield, and Absorb do absolutely nothing against Force and Tech-based attacks.

 

Are you saying mitigation actually works good now and it's viable to stack it instead of HP for Warzone Tanks?

[funkiestj]

When was it changed? Because I was told that at present, Defense, Shield, and Absorb do absolutely nothing against Force and Tech-based attacks.

 

Are you saying mitigation actually works good now and it's viable to stack it instead of HP for Warzone Tanks?

 

I can't tell you the exact release (google SWTOR patch notes) but shield mechanics were overhauled.

 

the old behavior was only attack type : melee/ranged was shieldable The new behavior is that all damage except elemental/internal is shieldable. E.g. force lightning is shieldable.

 

NOTE: we are now deciding based on damage type, not attack type.

 

you can search through your combat log for the string "shield" to see when your shield has procced.

Edited October 28, 2014 by funkiestj

[Loadsamunny]

I can't tell you the exact release (google SWTOR patch notes) but shield mechanics were overhauled.

 

the old behavior was only attack type : melee/ranged was shieldable The new behavior is that all damage except elemental/internal is shieldable. E.g. force lightning is shieldable.

 

you can search through your combat log for the string "shield" to see when your shield has procced.

 

Does Absorb actually mitigate as much damage as it says it does though? And can Force/Tech attacks be dodged or parried ala stacking Defense Rating?

Edited October 28, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[funkiestj]

Does Absorb actually mitigate as much damage as it says it does though?

I don't know what your question here means but I'll note that critical hits can not be shielded. This means that is some ticks of force lightning are critical hits then those ticks have 0% chance of being shielded. I'll let you do the rest of the math.

 

And can Force/Tech attacks be dodged or parried ala stacking Defense Rating?

 

No, defense is still avoidance only for melee/ranged (attack type) while resistance is avoidance for force/tech (attack type). NOTE: resistance can only be acquired via defensive cooldown e.g. jedi shadow resilience.

[Loadsamunny]

I don't know what your question here means but I'll note that critical hits can not be shielded. This means that is some ticks of force lightning are critical hits then those ticks have 0% chance of being shielded. I'll let you do the rest of the math.

 

 

 

No, defense is still avoidance only for melee/ranged (attack type) while resistance is avoidance for force/tech (attack type). NOTE: resistance can only be acquired via defensive cooldown e.g. jedi shadow resilience.

 

So Defense is useless because people only ever use Force or Tech attacks, Crits cannot be shielded/absorbed, and most dots cannot be shielded/absorbed either...

[abhaxus]

The main issue in PVP is that crits are not shieldes amd there are many auto crit abilities in PVP. Defense is still useful but it is seriously debatable for most tanks. Endurance is far and away the tankiest stat for PVP.

[Loadsamunny]

The main issue in PVP is that crits are not shieldes amd there are many auto crit abilities in PVP. Defense is still useful but it is seriously debatable for most tanks. Endurance is far and away the tankiest stat for PVP.

 

That's just it though. I don't wanna gouge HP and make it harder for my healers to keep me topped off. I want to stack mitigation so I can shrug off the extra damage and not need the extra HP to begin with, to make things easier on my healer.

 

Defense is supposed to work against Force/Tech like it does in PvE, and Shield/Absorb is supposed to work against Crits. If they don't do so in PvP, then they're not working as intended and need to be fixed.

[JouerTue]

i think the order is

dfended or not-->

crit or not--> if not crit, shielded or not.

 

personally i go for enhancements and mods with mitigation stats and a mix of main stat and endurance augments.

i feel tanky enough even without dcds up..

[Loadsamunny]

The main issue in PVP is that crits are not shieldes amd there are many auto crit abilities in PVP. Defense is still useful but it is seriously debatable for most tanks. Endurance is far and away the tankiest stat for PVP.

 

Okay, let me ask this another way.

 

-Of all the attacks you get hit by in Warzones, what percentage of them are considered Force/Tech attacks that cannot be dodged or parried via Defense Rating?

-Of all the attacks you get hit by in Warzones, what percentage of them are crits that cannot be shielded?

-Can Force/Tech Crits be mitigated AT ALL?

 

This will tell me if it's worth stacking Defense/Shield/Absorb for PvP.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[Glower]

All i can say, that in 2.0-2.10 sins/sorcs and leth snipers/ops still shreds juggs/powertechs to pieces. But i don't know anything about sins tanks... Edited October 28, 2014 by Glower

[funkiestj]

Okay, let me ask this another way.

 

-Of all the attacks you get hit by in Warzones, what percentage of them are considered Force/Tech attacks that cannot be dodged or parried via Defense Rating?

it depends on the enemy's spec. If they are competent they attack scissors with rock, rather than paper (e.g. don't have the MM sniper focus the tank, he should focus the sage or sentinel).

 

Defense is bad for PvP. Other stats give a better bang for the buck.

 

-Of all the attacks you get hit by in Warzones, what percentage of them are crits that cannot be shielded?

Torparse.com provide beautiful pie charts for this but they seem to be down while they go through a transition.

 

-Can Force/Tech Crits be mitigated AT ALL?

yes, I already told you it could. Attack type (i.e. force/tech) is no longer the deciding factor for shield proc. Damage type (kinetic/energy is shieldable, elemental/internal is not).

 

Turn on combat logging, go into WZ with a shield and tank stance and fight a few WZs.

 

Alternatively, you can duel a friend and ask him to repeatedly cast the same ability over and over.

 

Later, search for "-shield" in your combat log. If you are interested in Crushing Darkness then search of all instances of Crushing Darkness and see if any procced your shield.

 

TANGENT: you can install cygwin (freely available) on your PC and then use unix/posix utilities like grep to quickly search through dozens of combat logs.

 

 

This will tell me if it's worth stacking Defense/Shield/Absorb for PvP.

 

Defense -- not worth it.

Shield/absorb -- there is debate over this. The main question is whether a team with a tank that hits like a wet noodle yet mitigates really well can kill anything in rated arenas. Ignoring this question of DPS opportunity cost, everyone agrees that shield/absorb provides useful mitigation since mechanics where changed.

 

Absorb provides smaller diminishing returns than shield so most people stack absorb.

Edited October 28, 2014 by funkiestj

[Loadsamunny]

it depends on the enemy's spec. If they are competent they attack scissors with rock, rather than paper (e.g. don't have the MM sniper focus the tank, he should focus the sage or sentinel).

 

Defense is bad for PvP. Other stats give a better bang for the buck.

 

 

Torparse.com provide beautiful pie charts for this but they seem to be down while they go through a transition.

 

 

yes, I already told you it could. Attack type (i.e. force/tech) is no longer the deciding factor for shield proc. Damage type (kinetic/energy is shieldable, elemental/internal is not).

 

Turn on combat logging, go into WZ with a shield and tank stance and fight a few WZs.

 

Alternatively, you can duel a friend and ask him to repeatedly cast the same ability over and over.

 

Later, search for "-shield" in your combat log. If you are interested in Crushing Darkness then search of all instances of Crushing Darkness and see if any procced your shield.

 

TANGENT: you can install cygwin (freely available) on your PC and then use unix/posix utilities like grep to quickly search through dozens of combat logs.

 

 

 

 

Defense -- not worth it.

Shield/absorb -- there is debate over this. The main question is whether a team with a tank that hits like a wet noodle yet mitigates really well can kill anything in rated arenas. Ignoring this question of DPS opportunity cost, everyone agrees that shield/absorb provides useful mitigation since mechanics where changed.

 

Absorb provides smaller diminishing returns than shield so most people stack absorb.

 

So if I ignored Defense augs and went with half Shield and half Absorb, this would see some decent mitigation in Warzones?

[JediMasterSLC]

Definitely get 32 endurance augments. It is ok to have some defense rating in your gear, but if you're min maxing you should eventually end up with just shield and absorb rating mods/enhs, since shielding works against weapon (white) and kinetic damage, and defense rating only works vs weapon damage. Hopefully defense rating gets buffed in the future.

 

As far as the crit issue... critting and shielding are determined simultaneously. If you have 30% shield chance, and they have 25% crit chance, then there will be a 30% chance of a shield, 25% chance of a crit, and 45% chance of a normal hit. The attacker's crit rating doesn't impede your ability to shield unless their crit chance > (100 - shield chance). Basically, an autocrit.

[Capt_Beers]

Definitely get 32 endurance augments. It is ok to have some defense rating in your gear, but if you're min maxing you should eventually end up with just shield and absorb rating mods/enhs, since shielding works against weapon (white) and kinetic damage, and defense rating only works vs weapon damage. Hopefully defense rating gets buffed in the future.

 

As far as the crit issue... critting and shielding are determined simultaneously. If you have 30% shield chance, and they have 25% crit chance, then there will be a 30% chance of a shield, 25% chance of a crit, and 45% chance of a normal hit. The attacker's crit rating doesn't impede your ability to shield unless their crit chance > (100 - shield chance). Basically, an autocrit.

 

I wish more people knew this.

[Loadsamunny]

I wish more people knew this.

 

So Shield/Absorb is good against everything in Warzones EXCEPT an autocrit?

[Tastelessjoker]

You can shield any attack other than a critical hit. Defense rating only works against white damage, but you can defend a critical white-damage hit. Internal/Element damage ignores armor, but can still be shielded.

[funkiestj]

So Shield/Absorb is good against everything in Warzones EXCEPT an autocrit?

not everything. Neither armor nor shield provide mitigation against internal/elemental damage.

 

 

I searched through my combat logs for examples of force DOTS being shielded:

 

[01:09:55.101] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushing Darkness {863460225187840}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188131}] ()
[01:09:55.545] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushing Darkness {863460225187840}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (1141 kinetic {836045448940873} -shield {836045448945509}) <1141>
[01:09:56.197] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (265 kinetic {836045448940873} -shield {836045448945509}) <265>
[01:09:57.203] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (548* kinetic {836045448940873}) <548>
[01:09:58.245] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (501* kinetic {836045448940873}) <501>
[01:09:59.204] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (185 kinetic {836045448940873}) <185>
[01:10:00.227] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (185 kinetic {836045448940873}) <185>
[01:10:01.264] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (128 kinetic {836045448940873} -shield {836045448945509}) <128>
[01:10:02.271] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (128 kinetic {836045448940873} -shield {836045448945509}) <128>
[01:10:03.272] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188170}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (153 kinetic {836045448940873} -shield {836045448945509}) <153>
[01:10:03.273] [@Crazyhieu] [@Fitzwilliam] [Crushing Darkness {863460225187840}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Crushed (Not Cleanseable) {863460225188131}] ()

 

above you can see a force DOT being shielded (because the damage is kinetic, not internal/elemental).

[funkiestj]

You can shield any attack other than a critical hit. Defense rating only works against white damage, but you can defend a critical white-damage hit. Internal/Element damage ignores armor, but can still be shielded.

 

This is wrong. Color (white/yellow) is associated with damage type. Avoidance (defense) works based on attack type, not damage type. Defense can help you avoid my juggernaut ravage (melee) but not my force scream. Both of these deal white damage (not including dots from the vengeance tree that are procced by force scream -- these dots are yellow damage).

 

It is true that all defensible damage is white (because all melee/ranged attack types result in kinetic or energy type damage) but not all white damage is defensible.

 

Presently it is a true statement to say both armor and shield mitigate white damage only.

 

TRIVIA: shield used to work identical to defense (only melee ranged attack types) which is why it used to be considered useless for PvP.

Edited October 29, 2014 by funkiestj

[funkiestj]

You can shield any attack other than a critical hit. Defense rating only works against white damage, but you can defend a critical white-damage hit. Internal/Element damage ignores armor, but can still be shielded.

 

This is wrong. Internal/elemental is not shieldable. I just searched through a month of combat logs looking for a line supporting your claim and found none. It is easy enough to test yourself: have a friend duel you and dot you up with affliction (internal damage - not shieldable ) and crushing darkness (kinetic damage - shieldable) while a companion heals you. If you have a shield chance of 20% then 31 non-crit ticks of affliction should convince you. Only 1 in 1000 trials would miss all 31 ticks if affliction is shieldable, with a higher shield chance the probability of failing to shield all ticks is even lower.

 

Cheers.

[Loadsamunny]

This is wrong. Color (white/yellow) is associated with damage type. Avoidance (defense) works based on attack type, not damage type. Defense can help you avoid my juggernaut ravage (melee) but not my force scream. Both of these deal white damage (not including dots from the vengeance tree that are procced by force scream -- these dots are yellow damage).

 

It is true that all defensible damage is white (because all melee/ranged attack types result in kinetic or energy type damage) but not all white damage is defensible.

 

Presently it is a true statement to say both armor and shield mitigate white damage only.

 

TRIVIA: shield used to work identical to defense (only melee ranged attack types) which is why it used to be considered useless for PvP.

 

So how useful is Shield/Absorb against a Sorc or a Sage spamming force spells and dots?

[abhaxus]

That's just it though. I don't wanna gouge HP and make it harder for my healers to keep me topped off. I want to stack mitigation so I can shrug off the extra damage and not need the extra HP to begin with, to make things easier on my healer.

 

Defense is supposed to work against Force/Tech like it does in PvE, and Shield/Absorb is supposed to work against Crits. If they don't do so in PvP, then they're not working as intended and need to be fixed.

 

I am currently experimenting with a set of gear on my sin that stacks max endurance with all dps stats other than implants and ear. 41.7k hp, very low mitigation. Seems to be more than ok.

[Loadsamunny]

I am currently experimenting with a set of gear on my sin that stacks max endurance with all dps stats other than implants and ear. 41.7k hp, very low mitigation. Seems to be more than ok.

 

I don't WANT to be the guy that hits hard and gets hit hard in return though. I want to be a TANK. I want to be the guy in a Warzone that laughs at most of the attacks thrown at him, the guy that mitigates tons of damage and shrugs off the hardest blows and wants more afterwords.

 

Basically, as far as PvP tanking goes, if the DPS is Ivan Drago, I want to be Rocky Balboa.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[Zoom_VI]

Tanking mechanics 101

 

There are exactly two RNG rolls involved with a attack.

 

The first roll is a accuracy versus defense roll.

Defense is effectively subtracted from accuracy. So a ability with 95% accuracy hitting a target with 5% defense comes out to a 90% chance of a ability to hit.

 

Two important things about this roll.

-Firstly all Melee and ranged attacks except the autoaattacks have base 100% accuracy. With the 1% companion accuracy buff and the typical 3% accuracy from tree this puts the accuracy of most attacks at 104%, however since all classes have at least 5% defense, this means that there is still a 1% miss chance.

-Secondly the accuracy roll still applies to Force and tech attacks. All F/T abilities have base 100% accuracy, however there are a few limited sources of F/T defense. (which is termed resistance) The big one is the Assassin's shroud, and other is Pyro's chaff flare which gives 30% M/R defense and 30% F/t resistance

 

The second RNG roll is Shield versus Crit chance. A common misconception is that crits automatically bypass the shield roll, this is false - the two are rolled together. The only time Crit chance offsets shield is when Crit%+Shield% > 100%.

A attack with 20% crit versus a target with 30% shield chance will have a 50% chance to neither Crit nor Shielded, a 20% chance of critting, and 30% chance of being shielded.

However a attack with say 75% crit chance (such as Pyro's Railshot during the EF window) versus a target with 35% shield chance (your typical Vanguard tank) will equate to a 75% chance of critting and 25% chance of being shielded.

 

It is important to note that internal and elemental damage cannot be shielded. Technically a internal/elemental attack can still be dodged, however there are no melee/ranged I/E attacks in the game currently. However they can still be resisted.