Will Defense/Shield/Absorb work properly in 3.0?

[funkiestj]

Tanking mechanics 101

 

There are exactly two RNG rolls involved with a attack.

 

The first roll is a accuracy versus defense roll.

Defense is effectively subtracted from accuracy. So a ability with 95% accuracy hitting a target with 5% defense comes out to a 90% chance of a ability to hit.

Right. More precisely, the first roll is a hit/avoid roll. Defense is the avoidance stat for melee/ranged attack types while resistance is the avoidance stat for force/tech. (Both of these can be seen on your character sheet by mousing over the right part. Exercise: try looking at your defensive chance and resist chance as you pop different defensive cooldowns).

 

avoidance keys off of attack type, not damage type (beating a dead horse here).

 

 

Two important things about this roll.

-Firstly all Melee and ranged attacks except the autoaattacks have base 100% accuracy. With the 1% companion accuracy buff and the typical 3% accuracy from tree this puts the accuracy of most attacks at 104%, however since all classes have at least 5% defense, this means that there is still a 1% miss chance.

-Secondly the accuracy roll still applies to Force and tech attacks. All F/T abilities have base 100% accuracy, however there are a few limited sources of F/T defense. (which is termed resistance) The big one is the Assassin's shroud, and other is Pyro's chaff flare which gives 30% M/R defense and 30% F/t resistance

 

The second RNG roll is Shield versus Crit chance. A common misconception is that crits automatically bypass the shield roll, this is false - the two are rolled together. The only time Crit chance offsets shield is when Crit%+Shield% > 100%.

A attack with 20% crit versus a target with 30% shield chance will have a 50% chance to neither Crit nor Shielded, a 20% chance of critting, and 30% chance of being shielded.

Perhaps the problem is simply the vagueness of english but the bold passage above looks wrong to me.

 

In your 20% crit, 30% shield example, a crit is never shielded. If my absorb is at 30%, this 30% absorb will never be applied to a critical hit (I assume you know this but if the fact is in doubt, search through your combat logs for shield procs that are for critical hits -- you won't find any). If the shield never procs during a critical hit that is my definition of "crits bypass shield".

 

It sounds as if we agree as to what happens but if we do, why do we disagree on the english expression of the same? I don't know.

 

However a attack with say 75% crit chance (such as Pyro's Railshot during the EF window) versus a target with 35% shield chance (your typical Vanguard tank) will equate to a 75% chance of critting and 25% chance of being shielded.

 

It is important to note that internal and elemental damage cannot be shielded. Technically a internal/elemental attack can still be dodged, however there are no melee/ranged I/E attacks in the game currently. However they can still be resisted.

 

An excellent post aside from my quibble about "crits bypassing shield".

[abhaxus]

I don't WANT to be the guy that hits hard and gets hit hard in return though. I want to be a TANK. I want to be the guy in a Warzone that laughs at most of the attacks thrown at him, the guy that mitigates tons of damage and shrugs off the hardest blows and wants more afterwords.

 

Basically, as far as PvP tanking goes, if the DPS is Ivan Drago, I want to be Rocky Balboa.

 

The point many are trying to make is that in PVP, there essentially is a massive diminishing return on mitigation stats due to the nature of PVP. Any autocrit or extremely high crit abilities/windows are going to bypass shield, and any force/tech abilities are going to bypass defense rating. The only stat that DOESN'T have a DR in PVP is Endurance, and in fact many other abilities benefit heavily from high endurance (warzone medpacks, endure pain, kolto overload, etc) so there is no reason to NOT stack endurance at the expense of mitigation in PVP. Every point you put into mitigation instead of DPS is wasted. When you are guarding a healer and neither of you can do any damage, the DPS tunnel is going to win eventually.

[Zoom_VI]

For the 30/20 example, think of it this way. The RNG is roll between 0 and 100. If it lands between 0 and 20, its a crit. If it lands between 20 and 50, its shielded. Anything above 50 is neither.

 

Crit doesn't actually bypass shield, what is happening is that you can only roll a crit or a shield, not both. Autocrits are not actually eliminating shield, they just make it so that crit is the first 100 values, and the RNG is only rolling between 0 and 100, your shield chance is still there, just up in the 100+ range.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Zoom_VI]

The point many are trying to make is that in PVP, there essentially is a massive diminishing return on mitigation stats due to the nature of PVP. Any autocrit or extremely high crit abilities/windows are going to bypass shield, and any force/tech abilities are going to bypass defense rating. The only stat that DOESN'T have a DR in PVP is Endurance, and in fact many other abilities benefit heavily from high endurance (warzone medpacks, endure pain, kolto overload, etc) so there is no reason to NOT stack endurance at the expense of mitigation in PVP. Every point you put into mitigation instead of DPS is wasted. When you are guarding a healer and neither of you can do any damage, the DPS tunnel is going to win eventually.

 

Autocrits are not a major issue for tanks. There are very few autocrits in the game. Smash and Carnage's Scream are the only autocrits that even hit hard.

 

In fact in terms of shield and defense, tanks are fine. What is really hurting tanks is the sheer amount of armor penetration (note I/E attacks bypass armor), which severely hurts tanks passively, and makes PvP tanks extremely RNG dependant.

[Loadsamunny]

The point many are trying to make is that in PVP, there essentially is a massive diminishing return on mitigation stats due to the nature of PVP. Any autocrit or extremely high crit abilities/windows are going to bypass shield, and any force/tech abilities are going to bypass defense rating. The only stat that DOESN'T have a DR in PVP is Endurance, and in fact many other abilities benefit heavily from high endurance (warzone medpacks, endure pain, kolto overload, etc) so there is no reason to NOT stack endurance at the expense of mitigation in PVP. Every point you put into mitigation instead of DPS is wasted. When you are guarding a healer and neither of you can do any damage, the DPS tunnel is going to win eventually.

 

So what are you saying, that being a Tank in a Warzone is useless and a detriment to the team, and only DPS/Heals matter?

[funkiestj]

For the 30/20 example, think of it this way. The RNG is roll between 0 and 100. If it lands between 0 and 20, its a crit. If it lands between 20 and 50, its shielded. Anything above 50 is neither.

 

Crit doesn't actually bypass shield, what is happening is that you can only roll a crit or a shield, not both. Autocrits are not actually eliminating shield, they just make it so that crit is the first 100 values, and the RNG is only rolling between 0 and 100, your shield chance is still there, just up in the 100+ range.

 

As I expected, we are in full agreement on the details -- the confusion is indeed due to vagueness of english.

 

TANGENT: something I've never been clear on is whether a jedi sage's force armor is applied before or after other mitigation. If armor and shield mitigation are applied first this is better for the defender. Ditto for other temporary mitigations like a scoundrel's defensive screen.

[JediMasterSLC]

Defense can help you avoid my juggernaut ravage (melee) but not my force scream. Both of these deal white damage (not including dots from the vengeance tree that are procced by force scream -- these dots are yellow damage).

 

What are you smoking- scream is all yellow damage, not just the dot from veng it procs.

[Tastelessjoker]

This is wrong. Color (white/yellow) is associated with damage type. Avoidance (defense) works based on attack type, not damage type. Defense can help you avoid my juggernaut ravage (melee) but not my force scream. Both of these deal white damage (not including dots from the vengeance tree that are procced by force scream -- these dots are yellow damage).

 

It is true that all defensible damage is white (because all melee/ranged attack types result in kinetic or energy type damage) but not all white damage is defensible.

 

Presently it is a true statement to say both armor and shield mitigate white damage only.

 

TRIVIA: shield used to work identical to defense (only melee ranged attack types) which is why it used to be considered useless for PvP.

 

This is just wrong....

 

Just to reiterate as maybe I wasn't clear:

 

Melee/Ranged Attacks: Deal white damage and can be defended, including critical hits. Can be shielded, excluding critical hits.

 

Force/Tech Attacks: Deal yellow damage and cannot be defended. If damage type is kinetic/energy, then they can be shielded, excluding critical hits. If damage type is internal/elemental, then they cannot be shielded.

 

Force Scream is NOT a white damage attack, lol (where did you come up with that??). It is a force attack, thus yellow damage and cannot be defended, but can be shielded as long as it does not deal a critical hit.

 

All white damage is Melee/Ranged and can be defended, with the exception of retaliate from Warriors.

 

All white damage, as well as kinetic/energy yellow damage, is mitigated by armor.

 

All Internal/Elemental damage ignores shield and armor.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Tastelessjoker

[Zoom_VI]

All white damage, as well as kinetic/energy yellow damage, is mitigated by armor.

 

Technically this is false. Ranged and Melee attacks are effected by armor because all M/R attacks in the game are either energy or kinetic attacks. Being a M/R attack doesn't automatically mean its effected by armor as you could theoretically have a M/R attack that deals internal or elemental damage.

[Tastelessjoker]

Technically this is false. Ranged and Melee attacks are effected by armor because all M/R attacks in the game are either energy or kinetic attacks. Being a M/R attack doesn't automatically mean its effected by armor as you could theoretically have a M/R attack that deals internal or elemental damage.

 

Well I'm talking about the current state of the game and the way it's been since launch. I highly doubt they will ever have a M/R attack than deals yellow damage, it would go against their current system.

 

Also, all M/R attacks in this game are either weapon or energy attacks and are all white damage. Kinetic damage is all yellow F/T.

 

See I can nitpick too

[Jadescythe]

So what are you saying, that being a Tank in a Warzone is useless and a detriment to the team, and only DPS/Heals matter?

 

What they are saying is that tanks are most effective by stacking Endurance and being able to actually do damage as you can't stack enough mitigation stats to make that style of gearing effective. You can't gear and play a tank in PvP the same way you would in PvE. Your roll is about peeling and mitigating damage to your team more than just straight absorbing damage. Moving around guard and taunting appropriate targets is key, peeling for healers/focused targets is secondary, doing a good amount of damage is third. High health and damage stats give you the best chance of accomplishing these in PvP.

[Zoom_VI]

Well I'm talking about the current state of the game and the way it's been since launch. I highly doubt they will ever have a M/R attack than deals yellow damage, it would go against their current system.

 

Also, all M/R attacks in this game are either weapon or energy attacks and are all white damage. Kinetic damage is all yellow F/T.

 

See I can nitpick too

 

Yellow and White are not related to the damage type. (Energy, elemental, kinetic, internal) They are related to the attack type. (force, tech, melee, ranged)

 

The difference between kinetic and energy damage is non-existent, those classifications exist only for lore, and any relationships you are seeing between damage types and attack types are pure coincidence.

[Zoom_VI]

What they are saying is that tanks are most effective by stacking Endurance and being able to actually do damage as you can't stack enough mitigation stats to make that style of gearing effective. You can't gear and play a tank in PvP the same way you would in PvE. Your roll is about peeling and mitigating damage to your team more than just straight absorbing damage. Moving around guard and taunting appropriate targets is key, peeling for healers/focused targets is secondary, doing a good amount of damage is third. High health and damage stats give you the best chance of accomplishing these in PvP.

 

You shouldn't be taking offensive stat on a tank unless you are only ever going to be regstarring. If you want to do serious PvP you want to take the high endurance with tank stat pieces. Otherwise you are asking to get tank tunneled into the ground.

[funkiestj]

This is just wrong....

 

Just to reiterate as maybe I wasn't clear:

 

Melee/Ranged Attacks: Deal white damage and can be defended, including critical hits. Can be shielded, excluding critical hits.

 

Force/Tech Attacks: Deal yellow damage and cannot be defended. If damage type is kinetic/energy, then they can be shielded, excluding critical hits. If damage type is internal/elemental, then they cannot be shielded.

...

 

Yeah, I don't know what I was smoking. I've gotten to the point where I remember how various ability attributes (attack type, damage type) interact with avoidance and mitigation but I still confuse the meaning of damage color. I actually have a google drive slide deck with notes about SWTOR combat mechanics and even my notes say white/yellow damage numbers are associated with attack type, not damage type.

 

 

TANGENT: it would be so much easier to remember if each of the 4 (3 in practice) attack categories had their own color rather then grouping {F/T+K/E} with {F/T+E/I}. E.g. they could use white, yellow, orange and red. Then you could make simple statements like:

• there is no mitigation for red damage. It can be avoided with resistance (e.g. shadow resilience)
  
  
• defense (avoidance) only applies to white and orange damage (orange being melee/ranged + elemental/internal -- if there ever is such an attack added to the game)
  
  
• shield and armor apply to white and yellow damage (kinetic/energy damage, regardless of attack type)
  
  

 

I would find the 1 to 1 correspondence between color and important category much easier to remember.

 

Alas, this will never be.

 

...

My posts are quite a bit more accurate when I post from home with my SWTOR client (and combat logs) handy as I usually double check details I'm fuzzy on like the color of damage numbers (which I pay no attention to in game).

 

...

 

P.S. if you see any factual errors in my slide deck above please shoot me a PM.

[funkiestj]

What are you smoking- scream is all yellow damage, not just the dot from veng it procs.

 

You are right. I posted that from work where I can not log in and double check.

 

When I'm actually playing I don't notice the color of the damage numbers. I pay more attention to animations. E.g. I can pop the smuggler DCD dodge in response to the ravage animation but not the shadow resilience. Likewise, when I see the resilience animation I know I should use ravage but not blade storm.

[Loadsamunny]

Bioware needs to add Resistance to tank equipment then, to allow them to shrug off damage from internal/elemental attacks that cannot be shielded or dodged.

[Zoom_VI]

Bioware needs to add Resistance to tank equipment then, to allow them to shrug off damage from internal/elemental attacks that cannot be shielded or dodged.

 

No they shouldn't. They should replace some of the armor rating tanks have with flat Damage reduction. RNG is bad.

[Capt_Beers]

Bioware needs to add Resistance to tank equipment then, to allow them to shrug off damage from internal/elemental attacks that cannot be shielded or dodged.

 

I'm pretty sure that due to the way resistance works this might actually give tanks a chance to resist CC's. Most likely not intentionally but I think I can say with a good amount of confidence that that is a potential bug.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Capt_Beers

[Zoom_VI]

I'm pretty sure that due to the way resistance works this might actually give tanks a chance to resist CC's. Most likely not intentionally but I think I can say with a good amount of confidence that that is a potential bug.

 

With the current implementation, yes, since the dodge/resist mechanic is rolled with accuracy which is a property of attack type rather than damage type.

 

They could redo it however so that resistance gets its own RNG roll that goes off damage type. Putting this new RNG roll after the accuracy/defense roll and before the shield/crit roll, however that seems needlessly complicated for something that would only affect attacks that hit tanks.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[funkiestj]

No they shouldn't. They should replace some of the armor rating tanks have with flat Damage reduction. RNG is bad.

 

Actually, I don't think any change is required. That said, a flat mitigation as Zoom suggests is better than adding resistance. I haven't run tank spec in a while but I thought there were skill tree items that increased overall damage mitigation (both K/E and E/I). I know that vigilance/vengance specs get extra mititigation with the talent that buffs enure.

 

The whole point of having internal/elemental is that it has different characteristics from kinetic/energy. That combined with different classes and specs having different mixes of the 3 ability types {M/R+K/E, F/T+K/E, F/T+E/I} provides some of the desired rock/scissor/paper effect..

 

It is not like any class deals 80% of their damage as elemental/internal. I think madness sorcs have one of the highest E/I mixes and they are still below 50% E/I when I roll through my rotation vs the PvP dummy.

 

Also, all the classes that are high in E/I are DOT classes, which are countered by guardian focused defense and vanguard <thingie> (below 30% heal thingie)..

 

While tweaks could be interesting, there is nothing broken here.

Edited October 29, 2014 by funkiestj

[Tastelessjoker]

Tank tunneling is a problem in team ranked. Basically, tanks are too squishy versus many comps , so in order to bypass the guard mechanic teams tank tunnel. These generally have the ability to bypass many tank defensives and kill the tank very quickly. It is a very easy and very effective strategy that IMHO shouldn't exist in the game as killing a tank should not be easier than killing a DPS or healer.

 

For this reason they need to buff tank survivability. I would suggest being able to shield critical hits and having some type of DR for I/E attacks. Being able to shield them would be nice but it might break PvE balancing, but they need to do something.

[funkiestj]

I got home and created a pie chart (thanks matplotlib) of damage dealt and damage received during my last PvP session. This is perhaps 3-4 WZs with the last being a nearly full duration huttball.

 

I'm playing a juggernaut, vengeance spec but occasionally using a shield and sometimes even tanking gear (e.g. 1/2 time - full gear switch in voidstar, just a shield in huttball).

 

• defensible: melee/ranged attack // obviously armor and shield mitigation apply
  
• shieldable: force/tech + kinetic/energy damage // armor and shield mitigation apply
  
• internal: internal / elemental damage
  

 

Only 1/3 of the damage taken is internal/elemental with the remaining 2/3rds shieldable. Keep in mind that the damage shown is after mitigation is applied so the same raw defensible and shieldable damage against an unshielded light or medium armor wearer would be higher.

 

EDIT: the pie chart slices represent fraction of total damage...

Edited October 30, 2014 by funkiestj

[Capt_Beers]

I got home and created a pie chart (thanks matplotlib) of damage dealt and damage received during my last PvP session. This is perhaps 3-4 WZs with the last being a nearly full duration huttball.

 

I'm playing a juggernaut, vengeance spec but occasionally using a shield and sometimes even tanking gear (e.g. 1/2 time - full gear switch in voidstar, just a shield in huttball).

 

• defensible: melee/ranged attack // obviously armor and shield mitigation apply
  
• shieldable: force/tech + kinetic/energy damage // armor and shield mitigation apply
  
• internal: internal / elemental damage
  

 

Only 1/3 of the damage taken is internal/elemental with the remaining 2/3rds shieldable. Keep in mind that the damage shown is after mitigation is applied so the same raw defensible and shieldable damage against an unshielded light or medium armor wearer would be higher.

 

EDIT: the pie chart slices represent fraction of total damage...

 

Can you post the code you used?

[funkiestj]

Can you post the code you used?

 

Yes. I inboxed you to discuss further.

 

FYI: the code is python (v3.4)

[Zoom_VI]

Tank tunneling is a problem in team ranked. Basically, tanks are too squishy versus many comps , so in order to bypass the guard mechanic teams tank tunnel. These generally have the ability to bypass many tank defensives and kill the tank very quickly. It is a very easy and very effective strategy that IMHO shouldn't exist in the game as killing a tank should not be easier than killing a DPS or healer.

 

For this reason they need to buff tank survivability. I would suggest being able to shield critical hits and having some type of DR for I/E attacks. Being able to shield them would be nice but it might break PvE balancing, but they need to do something.

 

shielding critical hits would require revamping the entire roll system, and in the end it wouldn't do much of anything except versus autocrits. Not to mention the increased load on the server due to having three RNG rolls instead of two.

 

Also removing tank tunnel comps from viability is a terrible choice, because it limits the effective strats to just hardswitch comps, which means teams are limited to a very small number of specs that can be used.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Zoom_VI