Please, change the rules for "Needing" on gear.

[JouerTue]

they could add a feature to select which stat you will be able to need on..so you can need for alts, but not for your main class if you decide to do so..

[ItachiZaku]

I was always on the "need for main spec only" greed for everything else mindset, and then someone said "I spend time getting the group together on my main tank, I deserve the option to roll on anything that drops. 1. As organizer, but more importantly reason 2, I'm part of the group that took this guy down, as such I have equal right to anything that drops. If I as a human being can use something that drops, I have equal rights to it"

 

and so.... I still usually only roll need for stuff I can main spec use, but if there is a dick in the group, he'll ruin it for everyone.

[Icestar]

they could add a feature to select which stat you will be able to need on..so you can need for alts, but not for your main class if you decide to do so..

 

This would still not solve the "problem" with players needing on items their character can not use. The grief and drama would still be there if someone took something the others does not agree on.

 

If this would be a setting for the leader to select like a "stat loot" option then I can agree, it will show the group what is going on and everyone will know that each member can select one type of item to take. If someone does not agree it will be a option to leave before start. I think it is a bit complicated though and a setting to need on items the character can use is a better option.

 

Greed can always be used if the player that wants a item for a alt and communicates with the team and says so in advance then the rest can simply pass.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Icestar

[Ratajack]

They have said over and over again that they want to communicate with the playerbase.

 

They can easily drop a few lines here explaining what is going on. They have responded to questions in the past with "this is being worked on" or "this is something on the to do list, but we do not see it in a near future" to "this is something that will never be implemented".

 

Most say communication is the key regarding loot, it is the key for the playerbase to know once and for all.

 

And yet, they have said NOTHING about this in almost three years AND they have not implemented a change for which they have had a design for almost THREE YEARS.

 

At this point, it appears to me that they do not plan to make any changes to the loot system in the foreseeable future. That means that I, as a player, can do one of two things.

 

A) I can take a few minutes to communicate before the run starts to ensure that all members are on the same page regarding loot.

 

B) I can remain silent and let the default rules remain in place, hoping that the other members of the group follow the same guidelines which I follow. This, of course, also leaves the option to come and complain on the forums if I don't get those virtual pixels and demand that BW change the system because I can't be bothered to take a few minutes to communicate with the group.

 

 

I know which choice I'll be making.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Ratajack

[robertthebard]

So you'd rather have me do 1/2 the work I could on my main, just so you'd be able to accept that I beat your need roll?

 

C'mon, man...

 

I'll give this one shot: The people in the group? They are helping the run go, smoothly or not. They have an expectation that people rolling need on an item need it for the character that's actually in the Op. You remind me of a former guildy of mine, doing Priority Targets at 55, trying to decide if he should roll need on the 3x gear dropping from a WB. If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick. If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

That is, btw, the best solution for loot ninjas. Add them to your ignore list, and vote kick them. You can bet it won't take long for them to be here, crying about how we need a cross server queue because the game is dead.

[robertthebard]

So it is OK for you guys that I rock up in an operation in purple 156, doing crap DPS / eHPS - possibly leading to wipes and need on everything that drops, rather than coming on my BiS 186 main that does thrice the DPS / eHPS (leading to a much more smoother run) and Need tokens for my alt that I want to gear up?

 

I don't understand that logic.

 

But there is a difference between actual gear drops, and tokens, and every op I've ever run had the same rule for tokens, need until you get one, then pass so everyone gets a chance to get one. Rolling need on a gear drop that somebody else in the group could actually use, that's a sure fire way to be looking for another Ops group to be in.

[Ratajack]

I'll give this one shot: The people in the group? They are helping the run go, smoothly or not. They have an expectation that people rolling need on an item need it for the character that's actually in the Op. You remind me of a former guildy of mine, doing Priority Targets at 55, trying to decide if he should roll need on the 3x gear dropping from a WB. If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick. If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

That is, btw, the best solution for loot ninjas. Add them to your ignore list, and vote kick them. You can bet it won't take long for them to be here, crying about how we need a cross server queue because the game is dead.

 

I recall mentioning something regarding the attitudes of many tanks. I rest my case.

[Icestar]

And yet, they have said NOTHING about this in almost three years AND they have not implemented a change for which they have had a design for almost THREE YEARS.

 

They have not commented on this since 2012. Perhaps they see this as a social experiment, perhaps they do not care but to hold communication in such a important matter that players creates threads on over and over again is not right.

 

At this point, it appears to me that they do not plan to make any changes to the loot system in the foreseeable future.

 

I do not think tthey will do something about it either, loot will continue to create problems in this game as it always has.

 

A) I can take a few minutes to communicate before the run starts to ensure that all members are on the same page regarding loot.

 

This does not work on the server I play on. I always ask about groupfinder/PUG lootrules but in the end players always need on items they agreed on not to take. Nowdays it does not matter that much so I do not bother since I do not need the items myself but in the expansion this will be a problem I am sure of it.

 

 

B) I can remain silent and let the default rules remain in place, hoping that the other members of the group follow the same guidelines which I follow. This, of course, also leaves the option to come and complain on the forums if I don't get those virtual pixels and demand that BW change the system because I can't be bothered to take a few minutes to communicate with the group. .

 

I am never silent in the start if I expect the groupmembers to follow the "social rules of loot" in this game. Players here still think that communication works but in reality it does not, there is no guarantee that every member follows what is agreed upon. Communication is not always "the key" either, some still think it is in this game but the only way to make sure things work out is to change the flawed lootsystem.

 

Then again, Bioware has not cared about this since 2012 so why should they now.

 

Expect alot of threads and posts regarding this when the expansion launces, then everyone needs better gear to progress and players that takes items for their alts might not be that easily forgiven.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Icestar

[Ratajack]

 

 

This does not work on the server I play on. I always ask about groupfinder/PUG lootrules but in the end players always need on items they agreed on not to take. Nowdays it does not matter that much so I do not bother since I do not need the items myself but in the expansion this will be a problem I am sure of it.

 

 

 

I am never silent in the start if I expect the groupmembers to follow the "social rules of loot" in this game. Players here still think that communication works but in reality it does not, there is no guarantee that every member follows what is agreed upon. Communication is not always "the key" either, some still think it is in this game but the only way to make sure things work out is to change the flawed lootsystem.

 

Then again, Bioware has not cared about this since 2012 so why should they now.

 

Expect alot of threads and posts regarding this when the expansion launces, then everyone needs better gear to progress and players that takes items for their alts might not be that easily forgiven.

 

If the entire group agrees to a set of loot rules before the run, then if a group member breaks those rules, remove him from the group. It will not help with that one item, but at least it won't be more than one item.

 

I expect to see many more threads from people who feel they have more right to a set of virtual pixels than the other people who helped create those virtual pixels.

[Thoronmir]

I recall mentioning something regarding the attitudes of many tanks. I rest my case.

So what? Are you suggesting that tanks and healers don't receive a degree of deference in PUGs? Let's face it, if a DPS tries to vote-kick a tank or healer, everyone else in the group will at least pause for a second, regardless how atrocious the tank/healer's behavior. They will each stop and think, however briefly, about the chances ... and time required ... to replace the tank or healer.

 

Now, if a tank or healer initiates a vote-kick of a DPS, I don't think we see that same pause. DPS are fungible in PUGs. And, yes, I'm a healer. I'm not saying it's right or just, but I believe it's true. Or, at least, I believe it reflects a substantial portion of the PUG community: Healers and tanks are coveted; DPS are replaceable.

 

I play SWTOR to relax and have fun. Drama among the players playing a videogame is not fun. I adhere to my personal rules for looting. I only Need on stuff my current class/role can use that is an upgrade over what I already have. Everything else is Greed. When I find myself amongst others who do not share my philosophy, I leave the group. I don't create drama by forcing a vote. I just bow out politely, unconcerned whether I end up on someone's Ignore list.

 

I can usually find another group. If not, there are plenty of things for me to do in SWTOR. If not, the ball game is probably on. If not, I can catch up my reading. I don't expect anyone to conform to my style of play ... we either complement each other or we don't. We're not curing cancer. We're playing a game. If you can't be nice, polite, respectful, and considerate of your teammates, then I don't want to be on your team. Nothing personal. We just play differently and we would each enjoy the game more if we found different groups who share our respective styles.

[Ratajack]

So what? Are you suggesting that tanks and healers don't receive a degree of deference in PUGs? Let's face it, if a DPS tries to vote-kick a tank or healer, everyone else in the group will at least pause for a second, regardless how atrocious the tank/healer's behavior. They will each stop and think, however briefly, about the chances ... and time required ... to replace the tank or healer.

 

Now, if a tank or healer initiates a vote-kick of a DPS, I don't think we see that same pause. DPS are fungible in PUGs. And, yes, I'm a healer. I'm not saying it's right or just, but I believe it's true. Or, at least, I believe it reflects a substantial portion of the PUG community: Healers and tanks are coveted; DPS are replaceable.

 

I play SWTOR to relax and have fun. Drama among the players playing a videogame is not fun. I adhere to my personal rules for looting. I only Need on stuff my current class/role can use that is an upgrade over what I already have. Everything else is Greed. When I find myself amongst others who do not share my philosophy, I leave the group. I don't create drama by forcing a vote. I just bow out politely, unconcerned whether I end up on someone's Ignore list.

 

I can usually find another group. If not, there are plenty of things for me to do in SWTOR. If not, the ball game is probably on. If not, I can catch up my reading. I don't expect anyone to conform to my style of play ... we either complement each other or we don't. We're not curing cancer. We're playing a game. If you can't be nice, polite, respectful, and considerate of your teammates, then I don't want to be on your team. Nothing personal. We just play differently and we would each enjoy the game more if we found different groups who share our respective styles.

 

The problem is that many tanks, in my experience, have an attitude that they can set their own rules. They think can demand any loot, even DPS and healer gear, and bully the group into giving it to them.

 

I have no problem giving a good tank the respect he deserves. The same goes for any good healer or good DPS. I have played all three roles and I do not put myself above the rest of the group when I play my tank.

[DawnAskham]

Personally, I'd like to see the following...

 

Add a Greed option, then only allow Need when the item dropped matches a players class / role, all non-gear items set as Greed / Pass only.

 

Actually bind Need roll items, such that items gained through Need rolls cannot be passed to alts using legacy gear (nor used to buy armor to strip mods for alts). Items won by Greed rolls would still be usable with legacy gear.

 

Personal loot system for GF SM such that the system auto-rolls and decides if a player gets loot, none of which can be traded, all of which could be passed to alts through legacy gear.

[Drockter]

I don't expect anyone to conform to my style of play ... we either complement each other or we don't. We're not curing cancer. We're playing a game. If you can't be nice, polite, respectful, and considerate of your teammates, then I don't want to be on your team. Nothing personal. We just play differently and we would each enjoy the game more if we found different groups who share our respective styles.

 

I seriously may print this, and hang it on my monitor. QFT.

 

We can all (regardless of which side you are on in this particular argument) take a lesson here.

[Thoronmir]

The problem is that many tanks, in my experience, have an attitude that they can set their own rules. They think can demand any loot, even DPS and healer gear, and bully the group into giving it to them.

 

I have no problem giving a good tank the respect he deserves. The same goes for any good healer or good DPS. I have played all three roles and I do not put myself above the rest of the group when I play my tank.

I can agree that some (hardly "many" in my experience) tanks are as selfish as you describe, but that's not at all what the poster was saying when you chose to make your snide comment about the "attitude" of tanks. What he said was:

 

If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick. If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

I see no "attitude" here. Just a tank who takes offense if someone rolls Need for an alt on an item he needs for the tank who is actually in the OP. His response to such behavior seems justified and, aside from his emphasis on the general deference tanks and healers get in PUGs, in step with accepted practices. We each, to some degree, set our own rules. My approach to "loot rules" is more passive than his, but we reach the same result: either you play my way or you play with someone else. Like I said, it's not personal; nor is disagreeing over videogame loot rules for imaginary swag an indictment of a person's character (their "character", not their "character" ... it may be an indictment of their character without necessarily reflecting on their character ... I mean there's my character, as in the old, white-haired, bearded guy I play in the game; and then there's my character, as in the nature of the old, white-haired, bearded guy I am in real life ... hope that's clear).

[Drockter]

The problem is that many tanks, in my experience, have an attitude that they can set their own rules. They think can demand any loot, even DPS and healer gear, and bully the group into giving it to them.

 

I have no problem giving a good tank the respect he deserves. The same goes for any good healer or good DPS. I have played all three roles and I do not put myself above the rest of the group when I play my tank.

 

I have had a similar experience, once. A tank attempted this type of bullying in an ops group I formed... I removed them from the match without a second thought. We ended up not being able to replace, and the run fell apart.

 

However, I felt OK about it... as did most of the team... I would rather not finish a run than enable/support this type of behavior.

[Ratajack]

I can agree that some (hardly "many" in my experience) tanks are as selfish as you describe, but that's not at all what the poster was saying when you chose to make your snide comment about the "attitude" of tanks. What he said was:

 

If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick. If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

I see no "attitude" here. Just a tank who takes offense if someone rolls Need for an alt on an item he needs for the tank who is actually in the OP. His response to such behavior seems justified and, aside from his emphasis on the general deference tanks and healers get in PUGs, in step with accepted practices. We each, to some degree, set our own rules. My approach to "loot rules" is more passive than his, but we reach the same result: either you play my way or you play with someone else. Like I said, it's not personal; nor is disagreeing over videogame loot rules for imaginary swag an indictment of a person's character (their "character", not their "character" ... it may be an indictment of their character without necessarily reflecting on their character ... I mean there's my character, as in the old, white-haired, bearded guy I play in the game; and then there's my character, as in the nature of the old, white-haired, bearded guy I am in real life ... hope that's clear).

 

I definitely see an attitude.

 

If the poster had written:

 

If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick.

 

and stopped there, I would see no attitude.

 

However, when the poster added:

 

If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

he showed a definite attitude that he feels he can bully and control the group, IMO. This is the attitude to which I refer.

[TUXs]

I definitely see an attitude.

 

If the poster had written:

 

If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick.

 

and stopped there, I would see no attitude.

 

However, when the poster added:

 

If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

he showed a definite attitude that he feels he can bully and control the group, IMO. This is the attitude to which I refer.

Just chiming in to say I agree...the added part is where the attitude comes in, not the fact that he made his intentions clear. I actually appreciate it when someone states their needs (or asks if they can need) in a group. I'm more than willing to help players gear up, especially when I don't need the item as well...it's the ninjas I despise...that 4th guy who waits until the very end to roll need...

[Thoronmir]

I definitely see an attitude.

 

If the poster had written:

 

If you're running an Op with me, and Need roll on gear for your alt, when I need it for the toon I'm actually playing at the time, I'm going to push for a vote kick.

 

and stopped there, I would see no attitude.

 

However, when the poster added:

 

If I'm on my healer, or tank, you can bet people are going to pay attention, because if they don't, they'll be repping me when I add you to my ignore list and drop group.

 

he showed a definite attitude that he feels he can bully and control the group, IMO. This is the attitude to which I refer.

Yeah, I assumed that was the text you found offensive, I just disagree over whether it reflects an "attitude" other than the articulation that tanks and healers are deferred to in PUGs. I don't see a bully. I see a player giving his group a choice when confronted with unacceptable behavior: replace the looter or replace the tank/healer. That's more than I offer my group in the same situation. They're always left replacing me.

[Orizuru]

Bioware themselves back in 2012.

 

Frung: Have you considered adding a "companion" loot roll option?

 

Damion Schubert: We've discussed it and have a design for it - when we do this, we will make it so you can only roll 'need' on items that your advanced class is meant to use in one of its specs. I do not currently have an ETA on this feature.

 

While that does support the argument here, it doesn't define the system we have in-game currently because this was just an idea that was never completed and we really don't know why.

 

It could have been abandoned due to lack of resources or it could have been because it didn't fit the design goals of the loot system. We will never really know. However, you can't go around defining rules in a system based on comments from a Q&A session about a feature that were never implemented.

 

I will continue to play nice with the community and follow the standard fare of Need for main spec only, but I will also continue to be an advocate against this because I find it to be unfair at its most basic level. I will never be in support of a system that denies a player a chance at loot.

 

I think I'm failing to explain my thoughts well here. Consider the following scenario, assuming the loot system only allowed a player to roll on an item that had their primary stat. Lets pretend the group is a Wisdom based tank, one Str based dps, 1 Aim based dps, and 1 Aim based healer. Over the course of 1 flashpoint we will assume there are 5 bosses who each drop 1 piece of loot randomly from a loot table. After one run through the FP the 5 pieces of loot included 2 pieces with Aim, 2 with Cunning, and 1 with Wisdom. The tank was allowed to roll on 1 item, 1 dps and 1 healer had to compete with each other when rolling for 2 items, and then there 2 other items that nobody was allowed to roll on. The Str based player didn't receive even one chance at winning a piece of loot, and the entire group was prevented from getting any loot from 2 bosses. Suppose this same group runs the FP again and the same 5 items drop. After a third run they might even see 5 Cunning items drop. That is 3 FPs with 15 bosses and 15 chances for loot and each player had a horribly disproportionate opportunity to win an item. It simply is not fair.

 

You can argue that the Greed roll was still an option for everyone, but I would really like to see someone attempt to gear a companion using nothing but Greed rolls. Its possible in theory, but in actual application its an exercise in futility that will ultimately leave you frustrated.

[Drockter]

You can argue that the Greed roll was still an option for everyone, but I would really like to see someone attempt to gear a companion using nothing but Greed rolls. Its possible in theory, but in actual application its an exercise in futility that will ultimately leave you frustrated.

 

I've done it.... twice. Alternately, if everyone is greeding, I will ask... does anyone mind if I need for my comp/alt, before I click. I have never seen anyone object.

 

Communication goes a LONG way.

[LordArtemis]

I don't know, I still think they should simply remove need as an option. That way everyone gets a fair chance at the loot in the roll.

 

Right now it is too easy to sneak a need on an item.

[songofsix]

I thought I would way in on this, I rarely post but felt this warranted a comment.

 

I very recently rolled a trooper and ran the esseles flashpoint, throughout the run the other player needed on every item dropped. I passed pretty much everything as it wasn't useable by my class. Anyway get to the final boss and the first piece of trooper gear drops, I obviously need it and so does my flashpoint partner. I ended up losing the roll and walked out of the flashpoint without a single drop. You could argue that it's my fault that i didn't roll on any of the items which is fair enough, I will also admit that it's very uncommon that there is such a slant to one type of gear being dropped but it does happen.

 

Perhaps after a certain number of won need rolls a character should be cut off from the need options or have their winning chance reduced

[Icestar]

I expect to see many more threads from people who feel they have more right to a set of virtual pixels than the other people who helped create those virtual pixels.

 

Those virtual pixels lets you enjoy more content and experience harder content.

 

While you consider it pixels the actual use of them is to have more fun

[Andryah]

Yet another dose of this nonsense?

 

This constant demanding by players that a game company inoculate them from things they don't want to experience in an on line MMO is beyond tedious, and a waste of energy for simple things like loot rules (where you the players have the power to discuss and agree on rules for a group run.. and the ability to enforce them by majority vote-kick if someone violates the agreement between players for that group on that day/time/encounter.

 

Look... strangers in the virtual world of MMOs have been doing rude, anti-social, and irresponsible things for many years now. And while I admit that it has gotten worse over the years, it's not new and no matter what a game company hard codes into a game.... you cannot squelch bad loot behaviors in an MMO. Bad players will always find a way to grief the play style and desires of other players.

 

So.... suck it up and take these tried and true steps to group play in MMOs:

 

1) group with people you trust and know will not be complete loot douches. This is not hard to do if you are in a guild or have friends in game to play with.

 

2) Assuming, for whatever reason, you cannot do #1 above (or choose not to), then when forming a group with random strangers ---> have 2 minute conversation right up front on loot ground rules for the group for that run. It's called communications and agreement between players (who hopefully are mature adults, or can at least play the role for the time it takes to run a group encounter together). You would be amazed how well a little communications prior to starting a run can change things (or make it clear that a given player has no plans to cooperate, and you can take appropriate steps to mitigate).

 

3) Even if grouping with friends or guild mates, it is still prudent to spend two minutes to communicate and agree on what the loot rules for the run will be.

 

And frankly if you cannot or will not do the above suggestions, I have absolutely no sympathy for the player. Besides, it's completely impractical to try to force one-size-fits-all loot rules. Why? Because with north of a million active players inside an MMO... you are going to have many different views as to what "appropriate loot rules" should be.. which is why you empower the players to talk and decide among themselves what the loot ground rules are for a group run (as they my very well NOT always be the same).

Edited October 29, 2014 by Andryah

[Icestar]

Yet another dose of this nonsense?

 

You call it nonsense, I call it feedback from the playerbase.

 

There is a reason why this topic keeps comming back, that is because many players does not feel that the current lootsystem is working. I always ask for lootrules and as you say spend time to agree on how loot will be handled, it rarely works. There is always someone that press that need button anyway especially through groupfinder. There you will find those players that claim that all loot belongs to all their alts or his/hers companion.

 

I can safely say from my own experience, soon to be three years of gameplay that the current loosystem is flawed and needs to be improved.

 

The only way to gear up properly is to play with guildmates or those friends that is trusted enough not to take items they should not, but this is not a option if you sign up alone through groupfinder like thousands of players actually do. It is a luck of the draw if the group respects what is agreed upon at start or not, communication has ceased to be the key in this game.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Icestar