You know, it really is rude to pull if you're not the Tank.

[Pagy]

So I've had quite a few chumps try to do my job for me in random FPs this week, normally I don't say anything to them because it's not worth my time or energy to get heated, so I simply let them do as they please and go on with the FP. If they're particularly annoying me, I may decide to just let them keep the aggro of whatever they pull, die, and have to either wait or hoof it back, and pay the repair bill. It's mean, but I like making people learn the hard way because it's good incentive.

 

The last one however made me fairly angry. I pick up a Random Hard 55 for Hammer Station, and as soon as I've loaded in, the healer and one DPS is with me next to the shuttle, and the other DPS is already in combat. He dies, we mop up what he aggroed, and we play on, could've just been a fluke. Next pull, he jumps in when nobody is ready, so I let him die again, pick up the adds after he dies and we clean up again. He starts yelling at me for not "doing my job." So I tell him to stop pulling for me and I'll gladly take the aggro.

 

Next pull, what do you know, he jumps in before the healer is even ready. He dies, I pick up the trash and with judicious use of my panic buttons and some mean damage from the other (keeping them off him with Challenging Call and Saber Reflect), we manage to conquer without the healers presence. He goes off on me calling me a worthless tank and "I'll pull if I want to pull." At this point I've had enough and I call a votekick, and the others voted him out in all of 5 seconds. After we replaced him, the FP went smooth as silk.

 

Normally I don't get so mad at people trying to do my job for me. People are impatient and want to clear a FP quickly, I understand this. But it really is bad etiquette to pull for your tank. It's rude, it's a slap in their face, regardless of whether they're keeping up or going a bit slow. Even in an easy FP like a 50 or a Tactical, it's rude.

 

I'll admit it, I'm not a fast moving tank, I'm not Speedy Gonzalez or Roadrunner or Sonic or any other super-fast character you can think of. But I'm thorough. I make sure my team is ready for the pull before I jump in, I make sure my position is good so we don't get screwed over by a bad knockback (this has happened on Hammer before), I remind my group of the mechanics of any boss fight before starting it, and I make sure my team is SAFE. And pulling for your tank is one thing, but when you go off on a tantrum afterwords because "the tank is too slow" and "not doing his job" then it only makes you look like an enormous turd.

 

TL;DR, just an angry rant from an unappreciated Guardian Tank. It may sound a bit self serving, but don't piss your tank off. Good DPS is nice, but a Tank, even a bad one (being slow doesn't make you bad, and never let anyone try to tell you otherwise), is the CORNERSTONE of a successful group, and short of an unforgiving enrage timer, you won't get anywhere without the Tank or the Healer.

there are plenty of dps that like to pull like morons

 

but if im pulling, it's because the tank isnt fast enough. yes, being slow is the same as being bad. be faster.

[Kryand]

Haven't read any part of the thread yet, but my initial response to the thread title is:

 

It is also rude to not pull if you are the tank.

 

Edit: Ok I just read this part of the OP:

 

TL;DR, just an angry rant from an unappreciated Guardian Tank. It may sound a bit self serving, but don't piss your tank off. Good DPS is nice, but a Tank, even a bad one (being slow doesn't make you bad, and never let anyone try to tell you otherwise), is the CORNERSTONE of a successful group, and short of an unforgiving enrage timer, you won't get anywhere without the Tank or the Healer.

 

False. I have done every HMFP with 3 dps and a healer (or less). Tanks are not as important as you think. Self-important? Sure.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Kryand

[Gurv]

You're giving the DPS far too much credit with this post. I've had a number of flashpoints where the DPS run ahead of the group and pull the next with little thought of anyone else. There's a difference between taking way too much time and not running at a complete breakneck pace. If I can't take the time to loot the corpse of the trash we just killed before the DPS pulls the next then it's not me being too slow.

 

How often is this happening to you? In my runs I'm usually moving to the next pull as the final mob in this pull is dying, assuming the healer's resources are okay. If you're pulling fairly quickly the DPS would basically have to stop fighting in order to go aggro the next group - something I've almost never seen happen intentionally. It's just hard to believe that, in all the awful groups I've been in, I've been lucky to not have annoying DPS. Is it possible that you're just pulling too slowly if they feel the need to pull for you?

 

 

And when the DPS annoys me by pulling first, I tend to let them play tank. I have no issue switching to my DPS stance and faffing around killing weaks while they deal with the rest of the group.

 

I can only speak for my own runs but, again, this seems like something that shouldn't be happening often enough to build up within you to the point that you'd go out of your way to switch stances. That's an ironic amount of effort to be passive aggressive.

 

 

False. I have done every HMFP with 3 dps and a healer (or less). Tanks are not as important as you think. Self-important? Sure.

 

Yes. Very self important. In all my years of MMOs I've always found it odd when the people who take the central role in the runs turn out to be the whiniest. I'd think that stoic, non-plussed folks would gravitate to this role.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Gurv

[MillionsKNives]

How often is this happening to you? In my runs I'm usually moving to the next pull as the final mob in this pull is dying, assuming the healer's resources are okay. If you're pulling fairly quickly the DPS would basically have to stop fighting in order to go aggro the next group - something I've almost never seen happen intentionally. It's just hard to believe that, in all the awful groups I've been in, I've been lucky to not have annoying DPS. Is it possible that you're just pulling too slowly if they feel the need to pull for you?

 

How often is it happening? Not often, but it happens. Though I don't run flashpoints all that often anyway, so that isn't saying much. Like I said, in these cases it's not like I'm sitting around waiting, at most I'm looting the trash and possibly stealthing before I pull. If the guy can't wait that long then it's his issue. You may prefer to start pulling nonstop, barely waiting for the last mob to die for every single pull, but that's not everyone. And as long as the tank isn't standing around doing nothing then I really couldn't care less how quickly you want to pull, there's no reason to be pulling first in that situation.

 

I can only speak for my own runs but, again, this seems like something that shouldn't be happening often enough to build up within you to the point that you'd go out of your way to switch stances. That's an ironic amount of effort to be passive aggressive.

 

It's neither out of my way nor any amount of effort. My DPS stance is already on my bar, all I have to do is click it. But that's only saved for the most annoying. Most of the time it happens I let them get themselves killed a couple times before they get it and stop.

 

I have a similar intolerance for derp DPS on my healer too. I don't heal stupid.

[Grayseven]

Stop trying to make chain pulling sound so horrifying when it's not, sheesh...

 

Chain pulling isn't what we are discussing here. What we are discussing are petulant children who can't wait a few seconds for the tank to do what tanks do.

 

Chain pulling is different. If you have a geared group that's great, but recently with the plethora of undergeared toons hitting the FP's some jack-hole dps who hasn't bothered to look at the group comp decides things are "too slow" and starts jumping ahead and this can cause issues.

 

Heck, I recently kicked a dps from a Lost Island group because his level 52 self with 12k health and green gear decided we were going to slow and jumped ahead into pulls and kept dying...quickly. This was even after informing him that our tank and healer were both new to the role and neither had done LI before...at the start of the run giving him plenty of opportunity to bail if he didn't like it.

 

If you can't be bothered to play nice with the group, form your own uber-leet group and run however you want, but if you are going to use GF be prepared to get booted if you act like an idiot.

[Gurv]

You may prefer to start pulling nonstop, barely waiting for the last mob to die for every single pull, but that's not everyone. And as long as the tank isn't standing around doing nothing then I really couldn't care less how quickly you want to pull, there's no reason to be pulling first in that situation.

 

It would definitely explain why I've rarely if ever dealt with impatient DPS. Part of the reason I pull like this is that I used to be exclusively DPS and know the pain of having a slow tank. Perhaps I'm compensating by pulling at an insanely fast rate and, despite running in groups with impatient DPS, I'm not giving them the chance to express it.

 

I agree with your second line. Some people are just goofballs and will not be satisfied with fast run - they need a sprint. I only ever pull on my DPS toons when a.) the tank has stood still in front of a pack for 5+ seconds and b.) I know I can survive and c.) I know the tank [isn't] new and trying to learn. I ran into point C on my sniper a few weeks ago and quickly deduced that tips and offers to answer questions through /w would be more useful than rushing and freaking him out.

[BuriDogshin]

Chain pulling isn't what we are discussing here. What we are discussing are petulant children who can't wait a few seconds for the tank to do what tanks do.

No, we're talking skilled, over-geared DPS pulling mobs they know they can solo. Guys that can 4-sec stun a strong and kill it before the stun drops. Be grateful when you get to run with DPS like that, you're going to have a fast, easy clear.

 

As another poster pointed out, the problem is with players who just cannot accept that they aren't necessary, and decide to feel all insulted even when no insult exists. Tanking is not special in this regard: I've healed plenty of FPs where the other players were so skilled and geared that I rarely had any healing to do.

 

But what can I do, whine that they aren't letting the mobs damage them? No, I just contribute my modest amount (compared to them) of DPS to the team effort and keep an eye out for a situation where my special talents are needed -- just as I do when I am the tank in a tactical or a HM50 and the DPS is rockin' it on their own.

 

No wipe, no foul. That's all there is to it.

[jstankaroslo]

shouldn't this be here: http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=79 ?

[Deewe]

Heard from the NY cantina event that they are looking more closely into dual specs.

 

Wonder what will be the consequences on PUGs.

[Vexous]

As a guy that primarily plays a tank I sympathize with the OP. The problem though is that you have so many overgeared players making HMs too easy. People forget what hard mode really means and just think everything is a Tactical waiting to happen. No strategy, just blast through.

 

Can't wait for the xpac to hit and listen to all the screaming about how its too hard in the HMs.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Vexous

[Loadsamunny]

Well, it happened. I got votekicked for the first time for "making people learn the hard way."

 

I queue for Hard 55 GF and get an instant queue for Athiss. Both DPS are around 26k HP. The very first pull the DPS jumps in without letting me apply buffs or stims, and I have to burn Call just to pick up everything. I politely ask him not to do it again.

 

While I'm getting explosives and collecting bio mats off the animal corpses, they run off and pull another group, and one of the DPS dies. I tell them if they're gonna keep pulling and not let me do my job, then they can tank the boss. They start throwing insults at me at this point, but I catch up to them, and right before the first boss, both DPS jump into the boss before I can even heal from the last pull. So I decided okay, enough is enough, and I let them tank the boss. Healer couldn't keep them alive (the first boss is a joke too), and we wipe.

 

I say in group chat that I gave them fair warning and they didn't listen. They call me "worthless trash tank", one of them threatens to report me to Bioware for "not doing my job" and they votekick me.

 

Was it a douche move? Yes. But I feel it was justified here. They didn't listen, so they got the privilege of a repair bill and the downtime to wait for another tank.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Loadsamunny

[JumperPenn]

Well, it happened. I got votekicked for the first time for "making people learn the hard way."

 

I queue for Hard 55 GF and get an instant queue for Athiss. Both DPS are around 26k HP. The very first pull the DPS jumps in without letting me apply buffs or stims, and I have to burn Call just to pick up everything. I politely ask him not to do it again.

 

While I'm getting explosives and collecting bio mats off the animal corpses, they run off and pull another group, and one of the DPS dies. I tell them if they're gonna keep pulling and not let me do my job, then they can tank the boss. They start throwing insults at me at this point, but I catch up to them, and right before the first boss, both DPS jump into the boss before I can even heal from the last pull. So I decided okay, enough is enough, and I let them tank the boss. Healer couldn't keep them alive (the first boss is a joke too), and we wipe.

 

I say in group chat that I gave them fair warning and they didn't listen. They call me "worthless trash tank", one of them threatens to report me to Bioware for "not doing my job" and they votekick me.

 

Was it a douche move? Yes. But I feel it was justified here. They didn't listen, so they got the privilege of a repair bill and the downtime to wait for another tank.

 

There are just too many self centered people who want to bum rush through fps and expect everyone to 'make it work' when they don't know what they are doing or just don't care if they are making it harder for others. That includes not breaking cc or even using them, as well as interrupts, letting healers regenerate force,etc or even healing themselves.

[Delta_Fixer]

A good tank is worth her/his weight in gold. Don't let one impatient scrub ruin your enjoyment of the game.

[Defecter]

but if im pulling, it's because the tank isnt fast enough. yes, being slow is the same as being bad. be faster.

The argument of being slow is the same as being bad is hilariously retarded.

 

If you want to do a speed run, go as a guild group or run as a tank yourself. I've had way too many ****** experiences with PUGs if I chain pull groups. Most can't seem to keep up. At all. I do like to keep a decent pace, but when I notice that the group has a fresh 55 healer or one/two fresh 55 DPS, I'm not going to chain pull just because the one overgeared tard wants to go faster. That tard can tank his own pulls and die.

 

I've never had people kick me from a group (for being slow or otherwise), but I have kicked a few DPS who couldn't be arsed to wait for me to pull the damned boss. Accidentally pulling a trash pack/patrol is no problem. But constanly leaping/running in to facepull packs and even bosses after me asking not to do it, gets to die followed by a swift kick from the group. If there's multiple people doing it, I simply ignore and leave myself. Not worth getting pissed off over a game that's supposed to be fun.

[theJudeAbides]

As a person who has, at this point, only done tanking using GF, I tend to agree with the OP. I have not had any experiences as bad as his, but I've had several DPS sit and try to pull aggro from me. Heck, I've had some purposely pull a boss from me in the middle of a fight. My only thought is: do you have a death wish? I do my best to get aggro back but some people just don't seem to understand the mechanics of Tank/DPS/Healer.

 

As for speed, I usually start out a bit slower until I get a feel for what my group is capable of. If they're struggling, taking a bit longer with just the standard mobs, I'll go slower to allow them to heal up/regenerate force in between battles. However, if I see they're easily stomping through the mobs with very little healing need, I'll definitely pick up the pace. I try to go as fast as I feel the group can handle. As others have said, there's a pretty big difference between being group with fresh 55s versus a bunch of over-geared 180s.

 

A good tank recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of his group and adjusts his playstyle accordingly.

[Kissakias]

I had a same guy last night in a FPHM 50, the problem was that he was the healer, not only starting the attack but even when i get the aggro and have them all around me, he used and the force push:eek:

darn even if i start to insult him he didnt stop, 2 of the group was same guild so after the end of the FP i add ignore them both.

 

P.S. Let him die 2-3 times just to show him what wrong he was doing, nothing even after death!!

Edited November 1, 2014 by Kissakias

[Halinalle]

I had a same guy last night in a FPHM 50, the problem was that he was the healer, not only starting the attack but even when i get the aggro and have them all around me, he used and the force push:eek:

darn even if i start to insult him he didnt stop, 2 of the group was same guild so after the end of the FP i add ignore them both.

 

P.S. Let him die 2-3 times just to show him what wrong he was doing, nothing even after death!!

 

Usually it's healer+dps from same guild (or if you're healer then it's tank+dps). Do even smallest thing wrong and it's instant votekick.

[Gentleman_snow]

On the flip side of the equation is the rare pug that works like a dream. It's rare but it happened. Played Maelstrom Prison for the first time last night with a pug group, and though we were all strangers, we worked together -perfectly.- And a big chunk of that was that everyone knew their role, and nobody rushed anyone else. It's a major bugbear to me when people want to rush you so fast (I'm a tank on my main) that they don't care where your health bar is. Nobody should start a new encounter without topping off their health bars first, but you got that impatient guy who doesn't think it'll make a difference.

 

Really, a little maturity in MMOs goes a long, long way. Props to my pug last night - that was a great experience. If only all such participants were so knowledgeable - and well adjusted.

[Loadsamunny]

On the flip side of the equation is the rare pug that works like a dream. It's rare but it happened. Played Maelstrom Prison for the first time last night with a pug group, and though we were all strangers, we worked together -perfectly.- And a big chunk of that was that everyone knew their role, and nobody rushed anyone else. It's a major bugbear to me when people want to rush you so fast (I'm a tank on my main) that they don't care where your health bar is. Nobody should start a new encounter without topping off their health bars first, but you got that impatient guy who doesn't think it'll make a difference.

 

Really, a little maturity in MMOs goes a long, long way. Props to my pug last night - that was a great experience. If only all such participants were so knowledgeable - and well adjusted.

 

If you get even one player like that, things tend to go well. When ALL THREE of your teammates are idiots, what can you do besides leave?

[Icebergy]

Stuff like this is why most tanks don't use group finder, and your DPS queues are so long.

[Deewe]

Was it a douche move? Yes. But I feel it was justified here. They didn't listen, so they got the privilege of a repair bill and the downtime to wait for another tank.

Don't find it as a bad move, you warned them and there the consequences.

 

If they don't learn here they'll never learn, and the more it goes the longer will be their queue time as tanks will /ignore them.

 

Honestly wish we could /ignore_account. would drastically change people attitude.

[Borderlad]

...one of them threatens to report me to Bioware for "not doing my job"...

 

I would be interested to see how much traction he gets with reporting someone for that.

[Kryand]

From my usual perspective as healer, I have seen many more tanks being uppity and problematic than DPS. From trying tell me what to cast when no one in the group has dropped below 80% and refusing to pull unless I buff him before every mob. Same goes for everyone else I talk to. If a guildie is telling a horror story about a terrible HMFP run, the tank is pretty much always the source of the horror. And it's almost always an attitude problem rather than (just) a skill problem.

 

This thread certainly explains why. Tanks seem to think they are god's gift to FPs and can do whatever they want whenever they want.

[Gentleman_snow]

If you get even one player like that, things tend to go well. When ALL THREE of your teammates are idiots, what can you do besides leave?

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with that. If you're with three antisocial buffoons who are treating the game like LIFE OR DEATH!!! By all means, get the frak outta dodge.

[NecroMayre]

Never had any of these problems, only had problems with healers and tanks who are actually dps just didn't tick off the other queues.