hadoken Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Games where you just use 6-8 abilities is incredibly boring. I'm sure they are, but I don't think anyone is actually talking about turning this into a MOBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Mag shot? I don't recall hearing that on the stream. And if they replace railshot I'll be sad. That's probably one of my favorite abilities. Data mined And it's just for Pyro Merc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 That's a great idea. You can just prefer to suck at the game if you don't like using all the abilities. Good option, there. Particularly if you play in groups in an MMO. I'm sure that won't upset anyone at all. I was hoping someone would say that. If you can't do without the abilities in question, then thay aren't as needless as has been previously implied, are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I was hoping someone would say that. If you can't do without the abilities in question, then thay aren't as needless as has been previously implied, are they? Bloat isn't about removing things that are useless, it's about removing things that are mindless. You're implying the wrong thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I was hoping someone would say that. If you can't do without the abilities in question, then thay aren't as needless as has been previously implied, are they? +1. The characters I play regularly all make good use of the entire toolkit they bring to the fight... not sure where this idea of "bloat", which implies useless, unneeded, or redundant abilities, comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm sure they are, but I don't think anyone is actually talking about turning this into a MOBA. Lemme clarify. MMO's with limited ability sets are boring. MOBA's are a different beast and a genre I don't play so I will not comment on that. Data mined And it's just for Pyro Merc. Well that kinda sucks. Luckily I play PT and not a merc, but man railshot is just too awesome to replace OH well, hopefully the animation for their new ability is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Lemme clarify. MMO's with limited ability sets are boring. MOBA's are a different beast and a genre I don't play so I will not comment on that. Ah ok, well I haven't played any MMOs that only have 6-8 abilities so I didn't know what you were talking about. Assumed MOBA since those do have that (or less, actually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ah ok, well I haven't played any MMOs that only have 6-8 abilities so I didn't know what you were talking about. Assumed MOBA since those do have that (or less, actually). GW2 is a pretty good example. You're locked to 8 abilities. I think wildstar is limited to like 5 or 6 but I never got to play it as it wouldn't run on my pc for some reason. Tera I think also has the limited ability set but I could be wrong on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaff Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 GW2 actually has the most enjoyable combat in a MMO currently, in my opinion. You don't have a lot of skills but the ones you do have are meaningful and there is a lot of depth to them. With those few abilities the combat already has more depth than SWTOR's. The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers? Design issues aside, yes Marauders/Sentinels have some of the worst bloat in the game. Can't just take the abilities off my bars either because then I would be playing sub-optimally. This is a situation of the game needing change, not the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiaoki Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 GW2 is a pretty good example. You're locked to 8 abilities. I think wildstar is limited to like 5 or 6 but I never got to play it as it wouldn't run on my pc for some reason. Tera I think also has the limited ability set but I could be wrong on that one. No, no and no. A little research would have gone a long way. Also, it's not about how many abilities you have, it's about how they are used. Having 100 active abilities won't make the game more interesting. More interesting abilities and more interesting encounters would. Having a bunch of AoE attacks because they all do slightly different things (small damage with no cooldown, big damage with cooldown, debuff, proc, etc) is not interesting gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaff Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 No, no and no. A little research would have gone a long way. Also, it's not about how many abilities you have, it's about how they are used. Having 100 active abilities won't make the game more interesting. More interesting abilities and more interesting encounters would. Having a bunch of AoE attacks because they all do slightly different things (small damage with no cooldown, big damage with cooldown, debuff, proc, etc) is not interesting gameplay. Exactly! Thank you! I had hoped the Discipline system might be addressing this issue in SWTOR, but I think it may just be streamlining the talent trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 GW2 actually has the most enjoyable combat in a MMO currently, in my opinion. You don't have a lot of skills but the ones you do have are meaningful and there is a lot of depth to them. With those few abilities the combat already has more depth than SWTOR's. The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers? Design issues aside, yes Marauders/Sentinels have some of the worst bloat in the game. Can't just take the abilities off my bars either because then I would be playing sub-optimally. This is a situation of the game needing change, not the player. GW2 combat is terrible.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaff Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 GW2 combat is terrible.... Well even if you prefer the traditional ability spam I think SWTOR currently has too much of it. 36 abilities to keep track of is too much. 12 would be a good number. Even 24 would be okay. 36.. that's just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Just went through all the abilities on my Arsenal Merc... I routinely use at least 30 of the 30-something I have out on quickbars, and for different reasons. Some are part of the damage rotation, some are healing on the side, some are cooldown boosts for offense or defense, some are escapes or the like... I'd hate to lose any of the abilities on that screen right now, they all have a use and have proven vital from time to time. Edited October 17, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaff Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Losing the functionality of those abilities and losing the abilities themselves are very different things. No on is asking to lose the functionality. We're wanting that functionality to be streamlined. Smarter. Cleaner. We shouldn't need 30+ abilities to accomplish the same functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrittneyNB Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 GW2 actually has the most enjoyable combat in a MMO currently, in my opinion. You don't have a lot of skills but the ones you do have are meaningful and there is a lot of depth to them. With those few abilities the combat already has more depth than SWTOR's. The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers? Design issues aside, yes Marauders/Sentinels have some of the worst bloat in the game. Can't just take the abilities off my bars either because then I would be playing sub-optimally. This is a situation of the game needing change, not the player. I agree, GW2 has the most enjoyable combat imo. It is dynamic and requires reaction to the content...unless you are mindlessly stacking. I don't find the limited skills available to be a hindrance. My favorite is the staff elementalist, full berserker gear. That being said, I play SWTOR because of the roles and teamwork. I personally don't find the "ability bloat" to be a problem. Like others have said, most builds focus on a much smaller pool of skills that you buff through your tree. If you are trying to use every ability you get regardless of build, then you are most likely losing a lot of dps or heals by neglecting your most effective skills...ie, the skills that should be used on cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Losing the functionality of those abilities and losing the abilities themselves are very different things. No on is asking to lose the functionality. We're wanting that functionality to be streamlined. Smarter. Cleaner. We shouldn't need 30+ abilities to accomplish the same functionality. Most of them would make no damn sense mashed up into combinations. Or are we really going to suggest that Kolto Overrides be combined with Vent Heat, so that a BH can't reduce heat in combat without wasting a self-heal? Edited October 17, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Most of them would make no damn sense mashed up into combinations. Or are we really going to suggest that Kolto Overrides be combined with Vent Heat, so that a BH can't reduce heat in combat without wasting a self-heal? I don't know about merging abilities, but at some point they will have to do something. I am already using 33 keybinds on my vanguard (34 if I'm tanking) With the expansion adding even more abilities on top of that, its becoming at bit ridicules. That said I hope SWTOR doesn't make the mistake of jumping on the bandwagon that newer games are doing where you only have 8 or less keybinds, because that is just boring and excessively dumbed down. Edited October 18, 2014 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I don't know about merging abilities, but at some point they will have to do something. I am already using 33 keybinds on my vanguard (34 if I'm tanking) With the expansion adding even more abilities on top of that, its becoming at bit ridicules. That said I hope SWTOR doesn't make the mistake of jumping on the bandwagon that newer games are doing where you only have 8 or less keybinds, because that is just boring and excessively dumbed down. Agreed. (I don't actually use keybinds, really... I'm a filthy mouse-clicker...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Agreed. (I don't actually use keybinds, really... I'm a filthy mouse-clicker...) Even if your clicking its still going to get bad, for us keybinders its even worse. I'm already using shift, ctrl, and alt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Agreed. (I don't actually use keybinds, really... I'm a filthy mouse-clicker...) Good lord. You're an advocate of having 30+ ability buttons and you don't use keybinds? How is it even possible you're remotely competent at this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Good lord. You're an advocate of having 30+ ability buttons and you don't use keybinds? How is it even possible you're remotely competent at this game. I've been using a mouse for a very, very long time. I can get my mouse pointer across the screen and on target almost as fast as my eyes move. (Which is probably true of more people than realize it.) At any rate, it's faster for me than trying to remember which multi-button keystroke is tied to what ability. *shrug* Edited October 18, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Good lord. You're an advocate of having 30+ ability buttons and you don't use keybinds? How is it even possible you're remotely competent at this game. He's a wizard obviously:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 GW2 actually has the most enjoyable combat in a MMO currently, in my opinion. You don't have a lot of skills but the ones you do have are meaningful and there is a lot of depth to them. With those few abilities the combat already has more depth than SWTOR's. The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers? Design issues aside, yes Marauders/Sentinels have some of the worst bloat in the game. Can't just take the abilities off my bars either because then I would be playing sub-optimally. This is a situation of the game needing change, not the player. If you're going to be playing sub-optimally if you don't use all your skills, then it isn't bloat, is it? Bloat would imply that you can play w/out those skills, but since you're saying you can't, there's no need to fix anything, is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 If you're going to be playing sub-optimally if you don't use all your skills, then it isn't bloat, is it? Bloat would imply that you can play w/out those skills, but since you're saying you can't, there's no need to fix anything, is there. Incorrect, you have a false understanding of bloat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts