Bluejayoo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Come now, on its face it's deliberately vague and purports to broach an important social issue (but without actually saying anything of substance). It's got just enough to rile up both "sides." Surely it's better than 7/10. No I would tend to agree with the 7, possibly even a '6' troll score for lack of originality and bandwagon jumping. Everything even vaguely gaming related right now seems to be painted as some affront to the rights of women rather the companies involved have gone to GREAT lengths to be inclusive or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorothearose Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm in love. Why thanks good sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Slow mode on I am talking about all 8 classes in the 'class levelling event' having an iconic protagonist image for every class shown as a male. ALL of them. What image? I don't even know about that lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It is a technical majority, just over 50% compared to just under 50% for males. Speaking of birth ratios, however, the male gender is slightly over 50%, thereby making male births a greater number than female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Log in and go to the fleet, I guarantee you will see 30 or 40 guys running around in bikinis masquerading as our "gender" That would assume 30 to to 40 female characters in "bikinis" on the fleet in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petvin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Games are big offender when it comes gender stereotyping and such things. Funny that a more traditional medium like books (i don't mean books marketed to women) but usual fantasy are much better when it comes to characters that manage to be more then a bunch of clichés (mistborn). Typical game protagonist= White man Game companies even say the reason they don't make have more games have women as protagonists is that they would not sell,(only 18% chosed femShep, so maybe its not taken from thin air ) If this is true it showcases a deep and ridiculous immaturity in the majority of gamers. Too not be wllling to play something because ''OMG a woman wat fu u I play as man only'' This demostrates a deep set prejudice that should not exist. Frankly there is no reason that women should not be protagonists just as much as men in games. Men should not be the automatic default in games, it sharply limits their value and over 70% of games released have you play as a man, 20% as unknown 10% as a woman. Anyone have a good reason to why it has to be this way? And why you can't play as a woman? Anyone disagrees with me? Be welcome to ridicule me if you want. Seems to be common to be when you express opinions such as these. Edited October 17, 2014 by Petvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Games are big offender when it comes gender stereotyping and such things. Funny that a more traditional medium like books (i don't mean books marketed to women) but usual fantasy are much better when it comes to characters that manage to be more then a bunch of clichés (mistborn). Typical game protagonist= White man Game companies even say the reason they don't make have more games have women as protagonists is that they would not sell,(only 18% chosed femShep, so maybe its not taken from thin air ) If this is true it showcases a deep and ridiculous immaturity in the majority of gamers. Too not be wllling to play something because ''OMG a woman wat fu u I play as man only'' This demostrates a deep set prejudice that should not exist. A Frankly there is no reason that women should not be protagonists just as much as men in games. Men should not be the automatic default in games, it sharply limits their value and over 70% of games released have you play as a man, 20% as unknown 10% as a woman. Anyone have a good reason to why it has to be this way? And why you can't play as a woman? Anyone disagrees with me? Be welcome to ridicule me if you want. Seems to be common to be when you express opinions such as these. Sadly, I think it's because many gamers see the characters as extensions of themselves. Rather, they should view the game as a story or entertainment on the level of a movie. Although, now that I think of it, most movies tend to have male protagonists also, don't they? Dear lord, what Pandora's Box have I opened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sadly, I think it's because many gamers see the characters as extensions of themselves. Rather, they should view the game as a story or entertainment on the level of a movie. Although, now that I think of it, most movies tend to have male protagonists also, don't they? Dear lord, what Pandora's Box have I opened? It's alright me and got ya covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryand Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Games are big offender when it comes gender stereotyping and such things. Funny that a more traditional medium like books (i don't mean books marketed to women) but usual fantasy are much better when it comes to characters that manage to be more then a bunch of clichés (mistborn). Typical game protagonist= White man Game companies even say the reason they don't make have more games have women as protagonists is that they would not sell,(only 18% chosed femShep, so maybe its not taken from thin air ) If this is true it showcases a deep and ridiculous immaturity in the majority of gamers. Too not be wllling to play something because ''OMG a woman wat fu u I play as man only'' This demostrates a deep set prejudice that should not exist. Frankly there is no reason that women should not be protagonists just as much as men in games. Men should not be the automatic default in games, it sharply limits their value and over 70% of games released have you play as a man, 20% as unknown 10% as a woman. Anyone have a good reason to why it has to be this way? And why you can't play as a woman? Anyone disagrees with me? Be welcome to ridicule me if you want. Seems to be common to be when you express opinions such as these. It's been a very long time since I've played a game where you could not choose your gender, so I don't really see what you are talking about. Granted, I don't play many video games. The 18% female Shepherd statistic, if true, does more to support the opposing side of the argument, not yours. It does not mean that 82% of players would refuse to play as a female. It means 82%, for whatever reason, felt better playing male. People here are claiming that there is a 50/50 split between male and female gamers. If that's true, why would only 18% have picked female Shepherd? That would mean that most women chose to play as male Shepherd too. So don't try to say that this "problem" is caused by men. Either way, a game where the choice is offered is completely irrelevant to the whether or not a game with a female protagonist would sell. How was the latest Tomb Raider game received? If it did badly, that might be one support for the argument. However, you'd also need to know why it did badly. I admit that it's possible people would refuse to play it just because they don't want to be a female character, but that's pure speculation. The bottom line is the market speaks for itself. And if women truly are 50% of that market, as some claim, then their opinions are reflected in the sales just as men's are. So if female-protagonist games don't sell, women themselves are just as much part of the "problem" as men allegedly are. Edited October 17, 2014 by Kryand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Overall, Tomb Raider has been a wildly successful franchise, games and movies and comics, hasn't it? I consider the characters I play to be neither avatars for myself, nor movie characters to watch in a choose-your-own-adventure movie. They are characters that I want to explore, and in some small way independent entities with something of their own existence. I've played Sheps of both genders through ME and ME2, and honestly, Hale does a better job, and in some ways the character makes more sense as a woman. Edited October 17, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The bottom line is the market speaks for itself. And if women truly are 50% of that market, as some claim, then their opinions are reflected in the sales just as men's are. So if female-protagonist games don't sell, women themselves are just as much part of the "problem" as men allegedly are. Some may assert that women consumers are not given enough "womanly" choices in games, but your point is well taken. To reiterate, if women are truly 1/2 of the gaming market, why they not voting with their $ and not buying games that are not "womanly" enough (assuming lack of "womanly" game choices is in fact even an issue)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Blargh. There is nothing worse than people deciding what's womanly and what isn't. How about they make intelligent, interesting games for people, not genders, and call it a day? It wasn't that long ago when game company execs would have grossly underestimated 'womanly' appeal of slaughtering one's way across the galaxy with a lightsaber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashadk Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Female isn't a race. I'm pretty sure it can be as per the definition. Speaking of birth ratios, however, the male gender is slightly over 50%, thereby making male births a greater number than female. We die younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 That blog post isn't marketing material? Sure reads like it: If you are saying they picked random images to go in a marketing communication without considering whether those images were appropriate for marketing the game, we get back to BW doing something just plain stupid, don't we? That blog used concept art for fillers rather than having a artist spend time creating stuff just for a blog. Also while concept art is never designed with marketing in mind, its traditional to use concept art as promotional material for games / cantoons / movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickious Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm pretty sure it can be as per the definition. We die younger. We also are sent into combat more often and statistically suicide success rates are higher among men then they are among women if I recall correctly. Not neccessarily attempts but how often their efforts succeeded. Isn't that just peechy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 That blog used concept art for fillers rather than having a artist spend time creating stuff just for a blog. And you know this how? I didn't see any mention of that in the blog post or anywhere else from BW. Just because it is poorly done artwork, that doesn't mean it was concept artwork. Or that they did not pay for it. Also while concept art is never designed with marketing in mind, its traditional to use concept art as promotional material for games / cantoons / movies. Again, what's your source for that? And when the images sell the game short, by not showing the variety of characters possible, and not looking anywhere near as good as the in-game graphics, it's still an act of stupidity. Marketing material is supposed to make the game look as good as possible if not better, not make it look more limited and more amateurish than it actually is. Given the quality of the work, I'd guess it is more likely the artwork was done by some manager's teen-age child and added to the blog post to make the child happy and/or give them a resume bullet item, rather than being the work of a professional artist. Do you have any source that demonstrates that I am wrong? And as I said before, they could have gotten better, more iconic artwork from the fan base, for free, if they had just asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 [on female being a race] I'm pretty sure it can be as per the definition. Show me this supposed definition of yours. We [males] die younger. Except in China, where female infanticide is still widely practiced even though it is technically illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraineAlei Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Some may assert that women consumers are not given enough "womanly" choices in games, but your point is well taken. To reiterate, if women are truly 1/2 of the gaming market, why they not voting with their $ and not buying games that are not "womanly" enough (assuming lack of "womanly" game choices is in fact even an issue)? Not actually disagreeing here, just adding a bit and then going on to the general topic. Because we have three main genre of games: Games with some kind of violence (cartoon or not), seemingly targeted primarily at the Male PopulationChildren's Games that Walmart and Take get always have for sale for $3 because they never, ever sell.Girly games, focused on dress up, cooking, and finding a cute boyfriend. There aren't any games really, truly, targeted with women as the target audience. That is how it has always been. There aren't many games targeted for men either, because some real "genius" still think that video gamers who enjoy video games are still in K-12, and more often than not, "dumb down" the games that would be target for the older crowd, because we all know 8-12 year olds sit and play the M for Mature Audiences games. Women being biased against in the gaming industry isn't new. BioWare, however, has clearly show in the past how inclusive they are to both genders. Yes, the concept art is not specifically of anyone of the female gender (though they could be very flatchested women, a sign of a new body type?) but what, really, does that matter? The artist may have been better at drawing men more quickly, and they wanted art done quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm amused (and amazed!) that not one guy trollishly or not so trollishly jumped in bemoaning the lack of breasts in said concept art in "support" of the OPs post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Because we have three main genre of games: Games with some kind of violence (cartoon or not), seemingly targeted primarily at the Male Population There aren't any games really, truly, targeted with women as the target audience. You are assuming women don't like games with violence. My wife is a data point to the contrary. She's been playing games with violence pretty much continuously since DOOM was released. In fact, DOOM is why we bought her her own computer, so we could play networked together. Sure, DOOM wasn't targeted exclusively at a particular stereotype of women that abhor violence. So what? I am not sure such women are even a majority of women. Edited October 17, 2014 by BuriDogshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm not sure what this has to do with swtor. The last time I logged in, there were female protagonists in my character list, and all of my characters have female companions. So wouldn't this be better served in the Off Topic section? I'm also unclear what this has to do with BioWare, since they have included the gender option as far back as Baldur's Gate. When I log into this game to create a character, gender and species selection are the first two things I see, so really, what was the point of the topic title and the OP again? It would seem, to the casual observer, that the OP doesn't play any BioWare games, let alone this one, but is, instead, simply here to forward an agenda that really has no bearing on the game, or the company making it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'm not sure what this has to do with swtor. In a discussion about the omission of female characters as examples of characters you can play in SWTOR marketing material, you don't see a connection with SWTOR?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraineAlei Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You are assuming women don't like games with violence. My wife is a data point to the contrary. She's been playing games with violence pretty much continuously since DOOM was released. In fact, DOOM is why we bought her her own computer, so we could play networked together. Sure, DOOM wasn't targeted exclusively at a particular stereotype of women that abhor violence. So what? I am not sure such women are even a majority of women. I didn't say women don't enjoy violence. I play this game, so me saying that we don't enjoy violence would be ... Silly. But when we look at adverts of people playing those games, who's player voices? Men, usually. Usually we see guys playing them too in those ads. Those games are primarily targeted at the male population, and females who play are usually just gravy and bonus points. And I recall using "primarily" and "usually" in my post that you quoted, as qualifiers because, obviously women do play video games that don't involve cooking and that ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 In a discussion about the omission of female characters as examples of characters you can play in SWTOR marketing material, you don't see a connection with SWTOR?? Cherry picking is FTW. It makes it so you don't have to address the post, but instead can try to come off as "cool". What do you see when you go to character creation? Am I the only one that gets an option to choose gender as well as species? Is it because I have more than a few 55s, is that the only reason? No, it shows up even when I didn't have any characters made at all. So, this is just another "we're not catered to enough" thread, in a game built by a company that's been releasing games with gender choice since Baldur's Gate. So somebody got mad because there's not a picture of a girl protagonist eh? Guess what, if they had included some pics of girls in the marketing, somebody would be mad about how much or how little makeup she was wearing, or how big or small her ***** were, or what clothes she was wearing. Nature of the beast. So yes, I don't see what this topic has to do with this game, since everyone that can post here knows full well that we can select whichever gender we prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 A while back Star trek online did a main page /promo of a vulcan female in a uniform that had a nice deep pluging cleavage baring "top" That right, female vulcan, you know the species that biology/genetics has to make the males go into pon'far every seven years to they remember to procreate, about the last race you could ever imagine would feel the need to flash their breasts. Rather nice to NOT have the artists here try to use ***** to show off ideas As many bikinis there are in game, I dont think "women" are under-represented in this game, in the slightest. Especially with how many guys there are running around in said bikinis pretending to be lesbians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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