XiamaraSimi Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) So after reading the latest complaint thread comparing the upcoming Discipline system to Star Wars Galaxies NGE I have to post this. As the following quote says: NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice. (Quoted because its an accurate statement) Its a completely different scenario. When Disciplines go live, when I log in, my Marauder will still be a Marauder. My Assassin will still be an Assassin. My Sniper will -gasp- STILL be a Sniper. When Galaxies rolled out that travesty called the NGE however... My Master Creature Handler/Master Swords? NO LONGER EXISTED. Again, two completely different scenarios, and its actually rather insulting to have people continuously comparing it as such... So you won't be able to "tweak" the way you like, at least they aren't removing your class -entirely-... Edited October 15, 2014 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmblake Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) This happens with every single MMO no matter how positive or negative something is or how little or big something is. People. Don't. Like. Change. It's that simple. Even if it's positive, people like things to stay the same and will therefore find something to complain about. It doesn't matter what it is, someone will complain because it is different and they don't like it. Edited October 15, 2014 by tmblake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Clearly this couldn't have been posted in the thread comparing it to NGE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Clearly this couldn't have been posted in the thread comparing it to NGE... It was, and was immediately lost in the 12 other arguments in there, its a all around request in regard the the multiple thread posts comparing it. Edited October 15, 2014 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theUndead Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 So after reading the latest complaint thread comparing the upcoming Discipline system to Star Wars Galaxies NGE I have to post this. As the following quote says: (Quoted because its an accurate statement) Its a completely different scenario. When Disciplines go live, when I log in, my Marauder will still be a Marauder. My Assassin will still be an Assassin. My Sniper will -gasp- STILL be a Sniper. When Galaxies rolled out that travesty called the NGE however... My Master Creature Handler/Master Swords? NO LONGER EXISTED. Again, two completely different scenarios, and its actually rather insulting to have people continuously comparing it as such... So you won't be able to "tweak" the way you like, at least they aren't removing your class -entirely-... Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiperPilot Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I see and agree with the point. But I'm going to toss a (what I consider to be, valid) counter-argument out there. I can see why people would be upset. There are a lot of people that spend hours (and sometimes days) planning and tweaking and trying to build their "perfect" skills. When you put that much work into your character, something like this pretty much invalidates it all and says, "Your time is not worth my care." I think a lot of the problem is that there's absolutely no need for this change. Frankly, it doesn't affect me at all because I tend to stick with a "straight ticket" anyway... but again, I can see why people would be upset and I think that reasoning is very valid. I see it a bit like this. I am moreso an RPer at heart and I LOVE character creation. When the character creation is detailed enough and there are enough options, I will sit there for hours tweaking everything to just how I want it. If they were to come out with a change that basically takes two-thirds of my options away, thereby negating everything I did, I would be upset too... whether that means they added other new stuff (actually offering MORE options in the long run) or not. They would have destroyed my character. In this case, there is no "adding more options"... they're actually taking them away. Anyway... just thought I'd toss that out there to hopefully show the counter-argument without the emotional investment so many tend to throw into these discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essence_of_Light Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 This happens with every single MMO no matter how positive or negative something is or how little or big something is. People. Don't. Like. Change. It's that simple. Even if it's positive, people like things to stay the same and will therefore find something to complain about. It doesn't matter what it is, someone will complain because it is different and they don't like it. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daewan Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I see and agree with the point. But I'm going to toss a (what I consider to be, valid) counter-argument out there. I can see why people would be upset. There are a lot of people that spend hours (and sometimes days) planning and tweaking and trying to build their "perfect" skills. When you put that much work into your character, something like this pretty much invalidates it all and says, "Your time is not worth my care." I think a lot of the problem is that there's absolutely no need for this change. Frankly, it doesn't affect me at all because I tend to stick with a "straight ticket" anyway... but again, I can see why people would be upset and I think that reasoning is very valid. But there is a reason for this change. It's called 'Level 60.' And frankly, it is a lot easier to put up with the change now than it would be after they already tried and failed to get Lvl 60 working with the existing trees. One way or another the additional 5 levels was going to force a change. From the looks of it, Disciplines will be a change for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 This happens with every single MMO no matter how positive or negative something is or how little or big something is. People. Don't. Like. Change. It's that simple. Even if it's positive, people like things to stay the same and will therefore find something to complain about. It doesn't matter what it is, someone will complain because it is different and they don't like it. Funny thing is people don't like change but complain when no change is happening. People just want to find something to complain about. "Why you change all the time, if it ain't broke don't fix it Herp Derp" "This game never changes same boring expansion same boring equips, add some thing new and innovative so I can complain about the change herp derp" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't think anyone calling it NGE actually played SWG as they simply are not comparable in scope or intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 This happens with every single MMO no matter how positive or negative something is or how little or big something is. People. Don't. Like. Change. It's that simple. Even if it's positive, people like things to stay the same and will therefore find something to complain about. It doesn't matter what it is, someone will complain because it is different and they don't like it. Some people don't like change. Not all or even most. I typically can guess several of the handful of complainers on every topic before I even open a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiperPilot Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't think anyone calling it NGE actually played SWG as they simply are not comparable in scope or intent. I left SWG just before they broke it. I loved that game and is, in my opinion, still the best game ever made... which is why I left... I wanted to maintain that memory. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pquadro Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I see and agree with the point. But I'm going to toss a (what I consider to be, valid) counter-argument out there. I can see why people would be upset. There are a lot of people that spend hours (and sometimes days) planning and tweaking and trying to build their "perfect" skills. When you put that much work into your character, something like this pretty much invalidates it all and says, "Your time is not worth my care." I think a lot of the problem is that there's absolutely no need for this change. Frankly, it doesn't affect me at all because I tend to stick with a "straight ticket" anyway... but again, I can see why people would be upset and I think that reasoning is very valid. I see it a bit like this. I am moreso an RPer at heart and I LOVE character creation. When the character creation is detailed enough and there are enough options, I will sit there for hours tweaking everything to just how I want it. If they were to come out with a change that basically takes two-thirds of my options away, thereby negating everything I did, I would be upset too... whether that means they added other new stuff (actually offering MORE options in the long run) or not. They would have destroyed my character. In this case, there is no "adding more options"... they're actually taking them away. Anyway... just thought I'd toss that out there to hopefully show the counter-argument without the emotional investment so many tend to throw into these discussions. Dude, you cant really tweak so much in actuality People have to understand that that "tweaking" was never inteded to be a core mechanic of speccing It happened cos points increase created the situation in which you could build viable hybrids. But still this is not as free as you make it sounds. Hybrids broke balance because introduced permutations taking more gains than intended, thus the necessity to eliminate them to restore a more identity based system, in which classes will need to be more specialized to be effective. You will have identity plus some options to tweak to different playstyles (utilities) I don't see how people can understand this as an imparment. It will bring balance in the force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomla Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 It was, and was immediately lost in the 12 other arguments in there, its a all around request in regard the the multiple thread posts comparing it. A request that will be ignored. You're trying to stop people doing something, it never ends well and no one listens to random guy on the forums telling them not to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxtes Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 What you are asking for is people to stop complaining about changes. I think it is fundamentally impossible for a human to do so. Still good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 It sure is one of the thing I will never understand. Just like the old "[insert name of ultra violence BM band]'s newest CD is crap! Their only good CD is still their first demo they had to record in real norwegian cellar!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthFamine Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 *makes a thread complaing about people complaing about people comparing the disciplines to NGE* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atma Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 "REMEMBER THE NGE!!!!!!" is basically a meme at this point. And not just here, I've seen it brought up in a few other MMO forums. Really, I can't think of any other update in a video game as massive and catastrophic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryand Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) The bottom line is Disciplines amounts to barely more than a UI change. Rather than having to click the ~36 or so points that are 100% required for your spec to function every time you respec, plus the ~8 that are hands-down better than the other remaining choices, they are all granted to you automatically when you choose your tree (depending on level). Then the remaining ~2 that are actually not set-in-stone are moved off to the side where you can freely change them without having to click on the other ~44 points again every time. The only real difference is that they took like ~14 of the points from the "best/required" column and moved them into the "not set-in-stone" column, along with various likewise skills from the other trees, so that you get less random crap on the way to the skills that you need, and can freely pick and choose from all of the utility that your class has to offer. So in reality, they added more choice to every spec, while drastically reducing the amount of clicking it takes to respec and change your choices. And they got rid of the random hybrid problem to boot, which is the only choice that you can argue is gone now, but considering they were killing hybrids before Disciplines came along, you can't blame Disciplines for that. Blame their design philosophy if you must, because if they wanted to, they could easily add all of the hybrids back in as a 4th discipline to their class. I can see why people would be upset. There are a lot of people that spend hours (and sometimes days) planning and tweaking and trying to build their "perfect" skills. When you put that much work into your character, something like this pretty much invalidates it all and says, "Your time is not worth my care." I think a lot of the problem is that there's absolutely no need for this change. Frankly, it doesn't affect me at all because I tend to stick with a "straight ticket" anyway... but again, I can see why people would be upset and I think that reasoning is very valid. I wouldn't call that a good argument. In almost all cases, it is extremely obvious which skills were the best for every spec. If people really took days to figure that out, that's their own fault for not learning the game better. Sometimes the "best" skills change depending on situation, but they are still obvious. For example, in PvE you would go out of your way to avoid any skill with a CC attached, unless it is for a specific fight like pre-nerf NiM Grob-thok or NiM Styrak (maybe more) where certain CCs make aspects of the fight much easier. Then in PvP, you would take all of the CCs and drop the other random crap skills that don't do much to increase your DPS/healing/tankiness, which are also very easy to see. Literally the only skill choice that I can think of out of all the trees in the game that took any sort of math or experimentation to make was the Offhand Saber Mastery vs. increased crit chance for Annihilation/Watchman Marauders/Sentinels. But once one person determined which was better and posted about it, that became a set-in-stone choice too. And like I said, all of the above choices are still in the game with Disciplines from what I can see. The only differences are that each tree has more of them, and it doesn't require respecing and re-clicking all of your other points when you want to change your mind. Edited October 16, 2014 by Kryand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 The outrage over the NGE wasn't about the changes it made to the game. Too many people forget that the CU actually caused more uproar over the changes it wrought than the NGE did. The NGE caused an uproar in the way it was released. The day after...and I mean the very next day as in 24 hours...the day after players purchased the latest expansion of the Trials of Obi-wan, SOE announced that they were completely changing the game. Before that, there wasn't even a hint that the NGE was going to happen. The outrage was about buying an expansion only to find out that the entire game was being fundamentally changed to a "WoW-like" character system. To be comparable to the NGE one of today's game companies would have to start by drastically reducing communication with the player base, make a business decision to emulate the current number one MMO but not breathe a word about it anywhere, offer up an expansion without letting anyone know that said expansion is fundamentally changing the game and then drop the bombshell the day after the pre-order opens up and the the majority of your player base has purchased said expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarfux Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Well said. People just don't like change and don't like to adapt to new things. Even if they are good overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I left SWG just before they broke it. I loved that game and is, in my opinion, still the best game ever made... which is why I left... I wanted to maintain that memory. LOL You can still play the old game. I still play it, and though it is not 100 percent yet it is getting close. The SWGEMU. And it has a healthy population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 uh.....what's NGE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 uh.....what's NGE? NGE was the abbreviation for SOE's "New Game Experience" debacle. It came after the CU, or Combat Upgrade, which changed the combat system in SWG. The NGE took SWG's unique character class system and turned it into a WoW clone since at the time WoW was blowing up bigger than any MMO before (or since). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I don't think anyone calling it NGE actually played SWG as they simply are not comparable in scope or intent. I made this exact comment to a friend yesterday. I think the only people pretending it's even comparable to the NGE, have only ever read about the NGE...because this is NOTHING like the change NGE brought. If it was compared to the CU, they'd have a point...but the NGE?! Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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