To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[Max_Killjoy]

So in other words, you have no clue what you're talking about?

 

If that's some new-speak way of saying "Doesn't agree with Raansu", sure.

[azudelphi]

Commandos: Bacta Infusion for Combat Medic is an excellent free, instant heal that vastly improves resource management, increases your healing output, and makes you much better at responding to burst damage. Demo Round for Gunnery is just excellent damage all around, and not picking up Curtain of Fire near the top of the tree is just foolish. Assault Plastique in Assault is the only one that I feel is kind of weak, as the spec has other dots for proccing its key abilities so it isn't vital for the function of the spec, but it is still a dps increase over not taking it.

 

Assault Plastique used to be very weak. But it was buffed at some point and like a lot of DoT based specs, the residual burn works fantastically with FR and SA relics.

[Delta_V]

The BEST part of most trees is the top... name the abilities you think are bad.

 

As best I can tell:

Sentinel: Merciless Slash, Blade Rush, Force Exhaustion - All Good Abilities

Guardian: Guardian Slash, Plasma Brand, Force Exhaustion - All Good Abilities

 

Commando: Kolto Infusion, Demolition Round, Assault Plastique - All Good Abilities

Vanguard: Energy Blast, Fire Pulse, Assault Plastique - Fire Pulse is the only one I don't fully understand, but it is rotationally key.

 

Sage: Salvation, Turbulence, Sever Force - All Good Abilities

Shadow: Slow Time, Clairvoyant Strike, Sever Force - I am less familiar with the Shadow Infiltration spec, but I am confident the other two are good

 

Scoundrel: Kolto Cloud, Flechette Round, Hemorrhaging Blast - All Good Abilities

Gunslinger: Burst Volley, Incendiary Grenade, Hemorrhaging Blast - All Good Abilities

 

So... which top tree ability is available to you that you think is bad?

 

To be fair, the top-tier abilities for certain specs, such as DPS Sages and Dirty Fighting/Saboteur Gunslinger are not necessarily weak, but are also not "must have" abilities, which is why you see hybrids of those specs. But for most of the others, yeah, the top tier abilities drastically improve the performance of the spec. And that is why Disciplines will be AMAZING for the leveling experience - instead of having to wait until level 45 to get an ability that is necessary for your spec to even have a rotation, you will get it at level 26.

[JouerTue]

The SWG posts are what they are.

 

I'm with you, I will give it a fair shake... I am just trying to give the DEVs fair warning, people are going to be pissed if this changes their game play too much

 

somebody will anyways, it will be more than smash nerf, more than KD removal from scouprative, more than removal of sin tank self heals, the only thing close enough to what will happen here on the forum is if they took away force potency from infiltration

[azudelphi]

To be fair, the top-tier abilities for certain specs, such as DPS Sages and Dirty Fighting/Saboteur Gunslinger are not necessarily weak, but are also not "must have" abilities, which is why you see hybrids of those specs. But for most of the others, yeah, the top tier abilities drastically improve the performance of the spec. And that is why Disciplines will be AMAZING for the leveling experience - instead of having to wait until level 45 to get an ability that is necessary for your spec to even have a rotation, you will get it at level 26.

 

Sever force is definitely a must have for Balance. It increases TK throw's damage by 25%... which has been a significant boost to pure Balance Sages.

 

As for Turbulence, I can see arguments for and against it.

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[Raansu]

If that's some new-speak way of saying "Doesn't agree with Raansu", sure.

 

No, you blatantly just admitted you have no clue by saying the top tier talents are meh, especially for your scoundrel.

 

Speaking for scrapper since thats what I play the most on scoundrel. Flechette round alone makes a massive difference given that it has 30% armor pen and it applies a fairly decent dot, a dot of which you need to proc round two. You also have underdog and rolling punches that helps you not hit like a wet noodle and slippery devil gives decent defensive buffs.

 

To say these top tier talents are "meh" shows you have no understanding of the class. Its no wonder why you do hybrids. You don't even know what you're doing.

[AstralFire]

Max, I understand a lot of top-tier talents LOOK unimpressive at first glance. That doesn't mean that they are.

 

Compared to WoW, this game has a lot less spreadsheeting and spec elitism than that game did when they were on the high granularity talent model. The classes' top end damage potentials are also further apart than most of the ones in WoW at that time, and this doesn't bother most people. So when people care to take their talent trees up to 36 - 39 points, it isn't for a slight damage increase - it's for a very real increase in damage and often survivability.

Edited October 15, 2014 by AstralFire

[Jadescythe]

Personally, I'm not a fan of puzzle mazes.

 

Instead of insisting that they all be taken out or changed. I just don't do those FPs / OPs. I do AC as part of the credit grind once or twice a week, it's not hard to find a group for that at some point between the resets on the weekly.

 

In what way does this reponse have anything to do with the topic I'm responding to of "all content should be soloable"? I never said everyone liked those fights, but not every fight can be a straight tank and spank, which are the only fights that would require no mechanical changes for a solo player. Even boss swap mechanics have to be removed for solo content.

[Max_Killjoy]

No, you blatantly just admitted you have no clue by saying the top tier talents are meh, especially for your scoundrel.

 

Speaking for scrapper since thats what I play the most on scoundrel. Flechette round alone makes a massive difference given that it has 30% armor pen and it applies a fairly decent dot, a dot of which you need to proc round two. You also have underdog and rolling punches that helps you not hit like a wet noodle and slippery devil gives decent defensive buffs.

 

To say these top tier talents are "meh" shows you have no understanding of the class. Its no wonder why you do hybrids. You don't even know what you're doing.

 

Or I just don't agree with you. What makes spending all the way up a tree and forgoing the skills in another tree worth it to you, isn't worth it to someone else. Wow, what a concept. You're trying to look at this as an objective determination with a single defined and set goal, when that's simply not the case.

 

Chasing max damage means forgoing an improvement to self-healing that might serve a particular player better. Another player might not want to min-max their healing when they could get some extra damage or durability out of another tree.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Delta_V]

Assault Plastique used to be very weak. But it was buffed at some point and like a lot of DoT based specs, the residual burn works fantastically with FR and SA relics.

 

Sorry, "weak" might have been the wrong word. Like I said, picking it up is a dps increase. But it doesn't really *change* much in the spec, as you still have other dots for proccing your abilities.

 

Compare that to things like the Sentinel specs, where the top abilities are key to the fundamental idea behind each spec. Watchman wants to maximize the uptime on its dots, and using Merciless Slash to reset the CD on Cauterize is key to that. Combat wants to cram as many big-hitters in its Precision Slash windows as possible, which means you need the Ataru hits from Blade Rush to get the auto-crit Bladestorm and Hand of Justice to let you use Dispatch on any target. Focus is all about the super-powered Force Sweeps, so getting more Singularity stacks from Force Exhaustion is huge.

[azudelphi]

Or I just don't agree with you. What makes spending all the way up a tree and forgoing the skills in another tree worth it to you, isn't worth it to someone else. Wow, what a concept. You're trying to look at this as an objective determination with a single defined and set goal, when that's simply not the case.

 

Assumption: Players don't like dying to the mobs they fight and any death along these lines is considered "not fun".

Assumption: Players like having "fun".

 

To that end, the conclusion is that the game has two simultaneous objective goals:

 

Have your enemy die (Goal 1: Decrease Time-to-Kill, Increase Damage per Second) before you die (Goal 2: Increase Time-to-Death, Better "Survivability").

 

Now, objectively you succeed in this game so long as TTK < TTD. To his point, he is saying that if your goal is to increase DPS and decrease TTK (which is critical to having your character survive a given fight), then it is absolutely incorrect to say that Flechette Round is a detractor, or underwhelming, or useless to the Scrapper spec.

 

It is objectively true as well that if you go with a hybrid with the goal of increasing dps and survivability, you can do so but the net differential between TTK and TTD will be worse than any pure build. IF that differential is better than that net differential, then it is an overpowered hybrid (and the types of combinations that Devs do not want in game).

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[AstralFire]

Or I just don't agree with you. What makes spending all the way up a tree and forgoing the skills in another tree worth it to you, isn't worth it to someone else. Wow, what a concept. You're trying to look at this as an objective determination with a single defined and set goal, when that's simply not the case.

 

From the aspect of "fun", no, there is no objective determination.

 

From the point of view of "best for minimizing difficulty in solo content with scoundrels", there is almost certainly an objective answer or three, and I am doubtful that yours are among them. And as a general rule, people attempt to make their characters to minimize their difficulty or time spent with their preferred area of content, so long as it does not take too much work unto itself. Otherwise, we'd see more "look ma, no advanced class" people.

[Delta_V]

From the aspect of "fun", no, there is no objective determination.

 

From the point of view of "best for minimizing difficulty in solo content with scoundrels", there is almost certainly an objective answer or three, and I am doubtful that yours are among them. And as a general rule, people attempt to make their characters to minimize their difficulty or time spent with their preferred area of content, so long as it does not take too much work unto itself. Otherwise, we'd see more "look ma, no advanced class" people.

 

Yeah, the entire point of selecting talents is to improve the performance of your character. And in that respect, you absolutely cannot argue that the top-tier talents of most specs do not provide a considerable improvement.

[azudelphi]

Sorry, "weak" might have been the wrong word. Like I said, picking it up is a dps increase. But it doesn't really *change* much in the spec, as you still have other dots for proccing your abilities.

 

Compare that to things like the Sentinel specs, where the top abilities are key to the fundamental idea behind each spec. Watchman wants to maximize the uptime on its dots, and using Merciless Slash to reset the CD on Cauterize is key to that. Combat wants to cram as many big-hitters in its Precision Slash windows as possible, which means you need the Ataru hits from Blade Rush to get the auto-crit Bladestorm and Hand of Justice to let you use Dispatch on any target. Focus is all about the super-powered Force Sweeps, so getting more Singularity stacks from Force Exhaustion is huge.

 

Ah, so you mean that while Assault Plastique does increase DPS and thus is definitely good for Assault Spec, due to it being initial damage and damage over time with no additional rotational impact, it is seemingly uninteresting.

 

Would that be a better way to phrase it?

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

In what way does this reponse have anything to do with the topic I'm responding to of "all content should be soloable"? I never said everyone liked those fights, but not every fight can be a straight tank and spank, which are the only fights that would require no mechanical changes for a solo player. Even boss swap mechanics have to be removed for solo content.

 

I guess my point was that while I'd like to be able to access all the story content without getting into 8+ player content -- it would be selfish to suggest that everything be changed to be soloable because of the changes you outline that would be needed.

[Jadescythe]

I guess my point was that while I'd like to be able to access all the story content without getting into 8+ player content -- it would be selfish to suggest that everything be changed to be soloable because of the changes you outline that would be needed.

 

A point we finally agree on. I knew it was there somewhere

[Delta_V]

Ah, so you mean that while Assault Plastique does increase DPS and thus is definitely good for Assault Spec, it is seemingly uninteresting other than it being initial damage and damage over time with no additional rotational impact.

 

Would that be a better way to phrase it?

 

Yes, thank you.

 

The "feel" of the spec just doesn't change much when you pick up Assault Plastique. I just compare it to Bacta Infusion in Combat Medic, where before I got it, ammo management was a pain, but as soon as I picked it up, my reaction was "holy crap, this is sooo much easier". Or Watchman spec, where the rotation is so clunky and unreliable when you have to rely on Slash for your Cauterize resets, but picking up Merciless Slash not only improves your dps, but makes the entire rotation flow better.

[Raansu]

Or I just don't agree with you. What makes spending all the way up a tree and forgoing the skills in another tree worth it to you, isn't worth it to someone else. Wow, what a concept. You're trying to look at this as an objective determination with a single defined and set goal, when that's simply not the case.

 

Chasing max damage means forgoing an improvement to self-healing that might serve a particular player better. Another player might not want to min-max their healing when they could get some extra damage or durability out of another tree.

 

You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that those talents create synergy with the spec and are a must have to make the overall spec not to hit like a wet noodle. There is NOT ONE situation where the "extra healing" for a scrapper for an example is favorable over taking those talents up to cap stone. You are 100% gimping your damage, your energy management and just in general your class.

 

You have shown that you do not have a solid grasp on the class utilities and how their talents work. The discipline system will be doing you a favor. No more worthless hybrids, your characters might actually function for once.

[azudelphi]

You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that those talents create synergy with the spec and are a must have to make the overall spec not to hit like a wet noodle. There is NOT ONE situation where the "extra healing" for a scrapper for an example is favorable over taking those talents up to cap stone. You are 100% gimping your damage, your energy management and just in general your class.

 

You have shown that you do not have a solid grasp on the class utilities and how their talents work. The discipline system will be doing you a favor. No more worthless hybrids, your characters might actually function for once.

 

inb4 "non-optimal spec works for dailies"

[LordArtemis]

Sometimes it is difficult to see the usefulness of certain abilities and/or choices in the tree if you rarely participate in group content.

 

That does not mean that there are not abilities or boost that exist here and there that are useless to certain types of players...because it is likely there are in some spots. But I have found that some folks that mainly solo, myself included, do not understand how some abilities can actually help your performance until you try them out.

[Jadescythe]

Yes, thank you.

 

The "feel" of the spec just doesn't change much when you pick up Assault Plastique. I just compare it to Bacta Infusion in Combat Medic, where before I got it, ammo management was a pain, but as soon as I picked it up, my reaction was "holy crap, this is sooo much easier". Or Watchman spec, where the rotation is so clunky and unreliable when you have to rely on Slash for your Cauterize resets, but picking up Merciless Slash not only improves your dps, but makes the entire rotation flow better.

 

Perhaps it just doesn't fit with your play style. Having the TD>Sticky Grenade>RS>Punch>RS burst on my PT in PvP is at least half health and can't be healed until I start rail shotting. It fits extremely well into the rotation of the spec and gives it burst that many DoT specs don't have.

 

Your comment on Watchman spec is case in point. There is literally 0 difference between Slash and Merciless Slash besides damage done and % chance of reset. And you still have to proc the reset with Slash frequently anyway, especially now that the ICD is gone. It is a pure damage increase and nothing else, it's just tied to another ability in a direct way rather than simply complimenting the playstyle of the spec. You won't get as many procs without Merciless Slash, but using Slash instead does nothing to change the flow of your rotation. Leap>Overload Saber>Rupture>Rage Builder>Slash>Rupture>Ravage. Just replace the Slash with Merciless Slash when you get the ability and it's the same rotation with more resets and higher damage.

[Raansu]

Except the proc rate and damage on slash is WAAAY lower.....

[TUXs]

I disagree Tux. Everything in PVP and endgame PVE progression revolves around balance and trinity. Balance is not everything in the PVE casual content side of the game, which represents not only the likely majority of players but the majority of content as well.

 

The likely majority casual PVE playerbase is unlikely to care about or be effected directly by balance issues IMO. Therefore this balance problem is likely only a problem for a minority of the playerbase, and will likely always will be that way.

 

 

 

Because spending less time, resources and effort on the neverending balance crusade can translate into more casual PVE content.

 

And again, end game progression and PVP is not the entire flipping game IMO Tux. It is a minority portion of the game, the majority portion of the game is the PVE leveling storyline and side quests. That is the majority content, and that is the content that the likely majority casual playerbase most likely engages in.

 

So this change only indirectly helps the majority of players, in so far as it likely reduces changes to abilities that require reassigning points, nerfs and changes to abilities that hurt casual PVE for the sake of PVP or progression, and frees up resources, otherwise dedicated to balance issues, that can be applied to PVE content.

 

PvP and raiding is a minority portion of the players in your opinion? What else do players do LordArtemis? Craft? RP? Level an alt? Things which are independent of "balance"? Even for casual PvEers, balance is necessary. If you don't have some balance, eventually people begin to cherry pick who gets to go.

 

I agree with you in that most players log in, play the game and are completely oblivious to the imbalances that exist...but that doesn't mean they don't need to be addressed. In time, those imbalances cause issues.

 

And lets not put all of 3.0's change on "balance"..."balance" is hopefully a nice side effect of the changes, but the main goal (imo) was to remove hybrids and create trees/skills that could progress with a level cap increase without making hybrids an even bigger problem than they are now.

[Max_Killjoy]

You can disagree all you want, doesn't change the fact that those talents create synergy with the spec and are a must have to make the overall spec not to hit like a wet noodle. There is NOT ONE situation where the "extra healing" for a scrapper for an example is favorable over taking those talents up to cap stone. You are 100% gimping your damage, your energy management and just in general your class.

 

You have shown that you do not have a solid grasp on the class utilities and how their talents work. The discipline system will be doing you a favor. No more worthless hybrids, your characters might actually function for once.

 

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Raansu]

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

 

Sure lets just completely ignore statistical facts and throw points at the skill tree like drunks playing darts