Why I'm worried about the Discipline system

[BuriDogshin]

And what has been proven so many times during the history of this game, those people don't know what they like.

That's a lot of words to use just to say nothing relevant. I'm impressed.

[MillionsKNives]

I question this statement. Many NiM raiders I respect say that there is a "best spec" for some boss fights, and a different "best spec" for other boss fights. Compare Nephra to Corruptor-0, for example.

 

Hopefully the capability to adapt to each boss will be retained in Disciplines.

 

While I could be wrong, I think what he meant was that there is really only one way to build the tree for any one spec. The only exceptions being hybrids, which BioWare didn't like anyway, or specific utilities, which we'll still be getting a choice in. So basically, if you're going Arsenal there's really only one way to build an Arsenal Merc., or if you're going Pyro there's really only one way to build a Pyro Merc.

 

What you're talking about is whether Arsenal would be better than Pyro for a given fight. And I'd agree with that, there are certain specs that perform better for certain fights than their counterparts. The snipers and marauder that we run NiM content with are constantly switching specs based on the fight. Some need more burst, some more sustained, some AOE, and others single target.

 

Edit: I was apparently really slow in getting around to typing out this post.

Edited October 13, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Jadescythe]

Are you utterly incapable of making even trying to make your point without resorting to childish comments like that?

 

Less customization is a win for the vast majority of players. While less customization is a minor negative by taking away choice, those choices had little, if any value. The choice between a +1 to main stat or +1 to endurance doesn't matter when another ability give you +100 of both. In theory, you are losing the choice, but your choice didn't matter, so the change is minor. The improvement in BW's ability to balance classes more easily to perform equally in both PvE and PvP is a major step in the right direction. Some of the customization aspects remain in the form of utilities and specs still play the same way they did by keeping the core abilities.

 

Better?

[fujeo-finell]

So since I seem to respec my Sorcs nearly every day (Madness <-> Corruption), and enjoy them both, what does that mean?

 

It means you cant read.

[Max_Killjoy]

Less customization is a win for the vast majority of players. While less customization is a minor negative by taking away choice, those choices had little, if any value. The choice between a +1 to main stat or +1 to endurance doesn't matter when another ability give you +100 of both. In theory, you are losing the choice, but your choice didn't matter, so the change is minor. The improvement in BW's ability to balance classes more easily to perform equally in both PvE and PvP is a major step in the right direction. Some of the customization aspects remain in the form of utilities and specs still play the same way they did by keeping the core abilities.

 

Better?

 

They had little value to you. That's the point. What matters to you is not necessarily what matters to someone else.

 

This is not just directed at you, but at many people I've been discussing this with -- how many different ways do I have to explain that for some people, it's not the raw damage or the raw heals they like about a spec, and not the maximized numerical output that meshes with their play style?

[azudelphi]

They had little value to you. That's the point. What matters to you is not necessarily what matters to someone else.

 

This is not just directed at you, but at many people I've been discussing this with -- how many different ways do I have to explain that for some people, it's not the raw damage or the raw heals they like about a spec, and not the maximized numerical output that meshes with their play style?

 

Because what you are talking about is preference / taste; which are grossly subjective.

 

Making sure the maximized numerical outputs are within a generally accepted tolerance is an objective measure of a spec's balance.

 

The combat systems and skill systems of the game have to be built around balance first, preference second. The devs balance the objective first, subjective second.

Edited October 13, 2014 by azudelphi

[Orizuru]

They had little value to you. That's the point. What matters to you is not necessarily what matters to someone else.

 

This is not just directed at you, but at many people I've been discussing this with -- how many different ways do I have to explain that for some people, it's not the raw damage or the raw heals they like about a spec, and not the maximized numerical output that meshes with their play style?

 

Careful, that is a two way street.

 

You are implying that people who do not value hybrid builds should be made to suffer through poor game balance that includes broken and over-powered builds for the sake of what a very small group of players would like to preserve.

[BuriDogshin]

This is not just directed at you, but at many people I've been discussing this with -- how many different ways do I have to explain that for some people, it's not the raw damage or the raw heals they like about a spec, and not the maximized numerical output that meshes with their play style?

I knew a player that had a sorc healer in all 180 com gear, no set bonuses, who told me Dark Heal was the only heal he needed to "heal any fight in the game." Spent all his time getting carried in 16m SM pugs. So I guess he'd have been upset about BW forcing Resurgence and Innervation on him. But do we need to concern ourselves with people who misplay their toons that badly?.

 

There's always pros and cons, but for Disciplines the pros may outweigh the cons.

We won't know until patch 3.0.1b is released, I figure, if even then.

[EllieAnne]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

PvE. So what if a certain build can accomplish a quest at lvl 37 whereas I need to be lvl 39 with my build? Talk about unbalanced - anyone try to complete Inquisitor Chapter 1 or that Jedi Knight side mission on Tatooine at level?

 

PvP (casual) - I think that idiots and PvP gear cause more imbalance than hybrid than pure-build.

 

PvP (serious) - No rules whether in ranked or on a server.

 

In other words imbalance is either not a problem or if it is, getting rid of hybrid-builds is like 5th or 6th on the list of solutions.

[hadoken]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

While there always will be some imbalances no matter how good they are because you're not comparing apples to apples most of the time, they should always be striving for it. I'm not sure how you can play a multiplayer game and say balance doesn't matter. I agree it doesn't if you're solo questing and there's no such thing as group content - but that isn't this game, not really.

[Ryuku-sama]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

PvE. So what if a certain build can accomplish a quest at lvl 37 whereas I need to be lvl 39 with my build? Talk about unbalanced - anyone try to complete Inquisitor Chapter 1 or that Jedi Knight side mission on Tatooine at level?

 

PvP (casual) - I think that idiots and PvP gear cause more imbalance than hybrid than pure-build.

 

PvP (serious) - No rules whether in ranked or on a server.

 

In other words imbalance is either not a problem or if it is, getting rid of hybrid-builds is like 5th or 6th on the list of solutions.

 

Progression PvE... Well Shadow can simply cheese all AoE fight by hybriding making these fight absolutely easy.... Nice for them put it force you to have a shadow tank. So progression teams without shadow tank are screwed. Same thing with about every unbalanced hybrids and full specs.

 

PvP... If a specs whether hybrid or full is overperforming it is unbalanced... It screw everyone not playing them.

 

That's why balance actually matters. The problem with hybrids is how much time devs must take to dig out every possible hybrid and test them.. And the more level we have, the more hybrids we have. Devs don't have the budget to test a few thousands of spec. They have the budget to test 24 specs. So they threw the hybrids away to keep the game going forward instead of keeping it in place to work out every issue a possible hybrid could bring.

[MillionsKNives]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

PvE. So what if a certain build can accomplish a quest at lvl 37 whereas I need to be lvl 39 with my build? Talk about unbalanced - anyone try to complete Inquisitor Chapter 1 or that Jedi Knight side mission on Tatooine at level?

 

PvP (casual) - I think that idiots and PvP gear cause more imbalance than hybrid than pure-build.

 

PvP (serious) - No rules whether in ranked or on a server.

 

In other words imbalance is either not a problem or if it is, getting rid of hybrid-builds is like 5th or 6th on the list of solutions.

 

Completely incorrect. No one cares about balance in the single player portions of the game (i.e., leveling), but people very much care about balance in the portions of the game that are actually challenging and competitive (i.e., Operations and PVP).

 

What happens if one class greatly outperforms the others is that people doing that difficult or competitive content will gravitate towards only playing or taking those who have those high performing classes. We've seen it time and time again. Assassins were terrible for PVE DPS almost since launch, and so you barely ever see any. Operatives were terrible PVE DPS and so you also barely ever saw those. On the flip side, you would see an inordinate amount of Marauders and Snipers in DPS positions. This is very bad for the game. All classes need a certain amount of parity or else you exclude those who prefer one over the other, and you just end up with everyone playing the same class.

 

Getting rid of hybrids altogether allows them to do a few things, and makes it a very high priority for them. Firstly it allows them to more freely design a spec without having to worry about accidentally creating synergies with other specs. Secondly, they don't have to spend so much time testing and fixing those specs that they have accidentally created in the past. Thirdly, they can give players access to important defining skills in their tree much earlier than they could previously, because they don't have to worry about hybrid players grabbing low hanging fruit. And fourthly, this future proofs the skill trees for whenever they add new levels. There are a lot of complications that arise with their original system for any time they would be adding new skill points.

Edited October 13, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Suromir]

I guess all you QQ'ers miss the part where they said they are doing it, in part, to completely remove those "useless" skills so EVERY SKILL IS USEFUL that you get. You won't be "forced" to take those filler skills because they won't exist.

 

and your customization/choices are in the utility/side stuff..not the CORE class abilities.

 

learn to read moar.

 

I can kinda see the point hybrid lovers have...as they're really losing it completely..even if I, personally, don't care cause I don't play hybrids....the rest of you..need to L2R

[OrionSol]

Actually no they still are. The difference is on the left your railroaded into those skills you don't want(not even the illusion of choice) and on the right you have a minimum required before the next tier(at least 3 in tier 1 and at least 5 before tier 3). The only issue they will not have is the issue of having too many choices.

 

100% agree with you. They are shoving everyone into the same mold

[azudelphi]

100% agree with you. They are shoving everyone into the same mold

 

So which one spec is everyone going to be playing?

[Jadescythe]

They had little value to you. That's the point. What matters to you is not necessarily what matters to someone else.

 

This is not just directed at you, but at many people I've been discussing this with -- how many different ways do I have to explain that for some people, it's not the raw damage or the raw heals they like about a spec, and not the maximized numerical output that meshes with their play style?

 

What you fail to realize is that we have to take into account what any player will do. There are plenty of players who will do whatever the absolute best option is, no matter what. With that in mind, BW has to ensure that any possible combination of abilities doesn't cross a certain bar they set.

 

If they don't have this cap on the maximum power level, then PvE content will be too easy for this spec since it is geared for a lower power level or PvE content will be too hard for anything but that set of abilities since they had to tune it to that spec. Neither option is good for the game. Then you would have one spec outperforming everyone in PvP and essentially lowering the enjoyment for anyone wanting to play anything else.

 

If it were easy to balance millions of combinations of specs, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the change wouldn't be happening. Because the dev's goal will ultimately be to cater to the majority of players, this change to give them better control of power levels is a great stride. Simply because you like to put your points where you like is not reason to not improve balance as a whole for all players.

 

TL;DR you have to balance to the maximum possible performance and the current system has too many options to balance.

[MillionsKNives]

100% agree with you. They are shoving everyone into the same mold

 

Yup, it was totally much better when everyone ran the same spec, except for a few people who didn't know how to spec correctly or had found an overpowered hybrid that everyone else also started using the same one, and devs would have to spend an inordinate amount of time balancing because of hybrids than it will be when everyone...still runs the same spec but now the devs don't have to waste a bunch of time dealing with hybrids just because a couple people will whine about not being special snowflakes.

[azudelphi]

Yup, it was totally much better when everyone ran the same spec, except for a few people who didn't know how to spec correctly or had found an overpowered hybrid that everyone else also started using the same one, and devs would have to spend an inordinate amount of time balancing because of hybrids than it will be when everyone...still runs the same spec but now the devs don't have to waste a bunch of time dealing with hybrids just because a couple people will whine about not being special snowflakes.

 

To be fair, I am a special snowflake. I have the legacy title from the Life Day event to prove it.

[Jadescythe]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

PvE. So what if a certain build can accomplish a quest at lvl 37 whereas I need to be lvl 39 with my build? Talk about unbalanced - anyone try to complete Inquisitor Chapter 1 or that Jedi Knight side mission on Tatooine at level?

 

PvP (casual) - I think that idiots and PvP gear cause more imbalance than hybrid than pure-build.

 

PvP (serious) - No rules whether in ranked or on a server.

 

In other words imbalance is either not a problem or if it is, getting rid of hybrid-builds is like 5th or 6th on the list of solutions.

 

An interesting theory, but I would disagree.

 

PvE: If one spec (hybrid or not) is outperforming all others, then the content will be too easy with that spec. Alternatively, they could make the content harder, but then it would be impossible to clear without the unbalanced spec. It's very important for end-game content that classes are balanced and limiting options helps with narrowing the testing focus.

 

PvP (casual): If one spec if overpowered in casual you may not have a problem depending on the amount of overpoweredness. At a certain point, a spec can become so overpowering that you have no chance to overcome the gap and the game becomes extremely boring and frustrating.

 

PvP (serious): Balance is everything, but is actually least impactful here. If something is so strong, you better be playing it in competitive. You aren't picking classes/specs because you like them, you are picking them because they are the best. It makes for a stale competitive scene, however, when there is a clear best choice. Better to have a balance where you can put different pieces together to create different "bests".

[MillionsKNives]

To be fair, I am a special snowflake. I have the legacy title from the Life Day event to prove it.

 

Me too.

[Sheike]

People take the same things in the same trees because they lack the mental capacity to perform theory craft and figure out something cool. I've found that stacking alacrity and power on a marksmanship sniper makes it extremely effective in pvp vs single target. I've found that there is an effective damage role in the darkness tree of assassin, all you need to do is stack accuracy and power, then use defensive relics with a shield as an offhand and you become a f*cking war tank...

 

There is nothing complicated about this combat system, anybody could figure out cool and fun combinations if they weren't so thick and put forth just a little effort.

[LordArtemis]

Well, I looked at the Sorc tree, tried out the Skill Calculator designed by SWTOR Miner.

 

Other folks are welcome to give it a spin, and compare it to your current builds. I compared the healer spec to my build, and other than a few small differences and desires to have some new abilities the buildout was almost identical.

 

If this remains true for other specs, this is not that major of a change IMO.

 

People are welcome to give it a whirl and come to their own conclusions.

[Orizuru]

I'm reading through this thread and just thought of something - does it really matter if the classes are balanced? The answer is no.

 

PvE. So what if a certain build can accomplish a quest at lvl 37 whereas I need to be lvl 39 with my build? Talk about unbalanced - anyone try to complete Inquisitor Chapter 1 or that Jedi Knight side mission on Tatooine at level?

 

PvP (casual) - I think that idiots and PvP gear cause more imbalance than hybrid than pure-build.

 

PvP (serious) - No rules whether in ranked or on a server.

 

In other words imbalance is either not a problem or if it is, getting rid of hybrid-builds is like 5th or 6th on the list of solutions.

 

If Deception Assassins do 10% more damage than all other dps classes this is huge problem for competitive progression raiding because the other classes will no longer be desired by raid groups. Stacking 4 Deception Assassins would mean the group does 40% more damage to the boss. This completely devalues the other dps classes in raids. Even casual raid teams will prefer Deception Assassins because it gives them a 40% greater chance of success in an 8-man raid. When you look at 16-man raids, it becomes an increase of 100% if you bring 10 Deception Assassins.

 

Thousands of dps players in both PVE and PVP would be left out in the cold with no raid spots and no chance of every being competitive, which would make playing these classes moronic for any purpose beyond RP. The players who don't quit all reroll Deception Assassin and every where you go in game there will be more Deception Assassins than all other classes combined.

 

Can we stop being foolish now?

[MillionsKNives]

People take the same things in the same trees because they lack the mental capacity to perform theory craft and figure out something cool. I've found that stacking alacrity and power on a marksmanship sniper makes it extremely effective in pvp vs single target. I've found that there is an effective damage role in the darkness tree of assassin, all you need to do is stack accuracy and power, then use defensive relics with a shield as an offhand and you become a f*cking war tank...

 

There is nothing complicated about this combat system, anybody could figure out cool and fun combinations if they weren't so thick and put forth just a little effort.

 

People take the same trees because they have the mental capacity to realize that there is really only one (or at most a couple) effective way to build the specs. There is nothing that others haven't tried and dismissed for being ineffective already. You're not a snowflake. If it works others are already using it. If it doesn't, then they've already dismissed it.

 

Tanks acting and wearing armor of DPS is nothing new. It's been around for ages.

 

If Deception Assassins do 10% more damage than all other dps classes this is huge problem for competitive progression raiding because the other classes will no longer be desired by raid groups. Stacking 4 Deception Assassins would mean the group does 40% more damage to the boss. This completely devalues the other dps classes in raids. Even casual raid teams will prefer Deception Assassins because it gives them a 40% greater chance of success in an 8-man raid. When you look at 16-man raids, it becomes an increase of 100% if you bring 10 Deception Assassins.

 

Thousands of dps players in both PVE and PVP would be left out in the cold with no raid spots and no chance of every being competitive, which would make playing these classes moronic for any purpose beyond RP. The players who don't quit all reroll Deception Assassin and every where you go in game there will be more Deception Assassins than all other classes combined.

 

Can we stop being foolish now?

 

That's not how percents work. If you have 4 DPS and one of them is your theoretical Deception Assassin then the DPS would as a whole be doing 2.5% more DPS. Alone, he does 10% more, in a group that increase has to be considered against the group, he's only 1/4 of the DPS. If you brought 4 Deception Assassins then you'd be doing 10% more damage. In a 16 man, if all 10 of your DPS were Deception Assassins the DPS would still be doing only 10% more damage.

 

To make it easier to understand, assume you have 4 DPS doing 100 DPS. So a group of 4 DPS does a grand total of 400 DPS. But along comes a Deception Assassin, and he does 110 DPS. Now you have a total of 410 DPS. That's a 2.5% increase. If you bring 4 Deception Assassins you would then have 440 DPS. That's a 10% increase.

 

It's still bad to have things unbalanced, but not for the numbers you claim.

[LordArtemis]

Doesn't anyone want to give the Skill Calculator designed by SWTOR Miner a whirl and see if there are any problems?