Please Consider Adding a Solo Version of Forged Alliances

[Gleneagle]

@LordArtimus: Fine, be dismissive and above-it-all. Making reference to disagreement that implied that anyone with a different opiion seems threatened is an insidious rhetorical device and you should have anticipated this silly response to your suggestion. But, as you and others rightly pointed this is all a digression from the intent of the thread, and for that I apologise.

 

I still fail to see why grouping needs incentives if they are anything people actually prefer.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Gleneagle
add direction

[Drockter]

So, you're saying that a good number of people would prefer to play solo if given the option? A big enough number that the people who prefer to group, would find it harder to find people to group with? You may be right...but in that case, why cater to the minority of people who prefer grouping?

 

If less people would do it...then, so what? No loss. The people who genuinely want to do it still could. There's no downside to less people playing in groups, if it's something they'd rather not do.

 

I just always find it interesting that "If there were a solo option, everyone would pick that!" is used as an argument against having a solo option. Seems more like an argument in favor of it.

 

Well, the "majority" is in question... I make no assertions on which side of the majority would land on in this case... frankly because I do not know, nor do you... we can both only use anecdotal evidence.

 

Now, there is a loss... less people to group with (if we use your estimation that the majority would prefer not to group), would mean for those who do prefer group content... that aspect of the game would shrivel up. That is a downside... if there are less people, being able to group will take longer (queues are bad enough (unless you are a tank) for HM FPs now. So it does have an impact. A significant one.

[Clarian]

I make no assertions on which side of the majority would land on in this case... frankly because I do not know, nor do you... we can both only use anecdotal evidence..

Yeah, I don't claim to know either. I'm not even offering any anecdotal evidence...I was just running with what you said.

(if we use your estimation that the majority would prefer not to group),

I thought that was your estimation. I don't claim to have any idea, though I will say that it wouldn't surprise me. And, from discussions on this topic over the years, I've seen that a lot of pro-group people at least are apprehensive that the majority would prefer not to.

(that aspect of the game would shrivel up. That is a downside... if there are less people, being able to group will take longer (queues are bad enough (unless you are a tank) for HM FPs now. So it does have an impact. A significant one.

If that aspect of the game would shrivel up, it would only be because it was something people weren't interested in. If something people aren't interested in goes away...nothing is really lost. Sure, in that scenario a minority might still be interested in it, but that's the price you pay for having niche interests. And remember, for every person left unsatisfied that it was harder to get a group, many more would be more satisfied that they didn't have to.

[Gleneagle]

That is a downside... if there are less people, being able to group will take longer (queues are bad enough (unless you are a tank) for HM FPs now. So it does have an impact. A significant one.

It is also a significant downside for players who prefer independent play to be essentially punished -denied content and rewards- because they prefer to play independently. Neither of us knows whether one or another portion is a majority, but I would argue there are some things that shouldn't be subject to democracy (example: the argument that everyone has an equal opinion would subject facts to a vote).

 

But we know that both those who prefer only to group and those who prefer to play independently (and other factions in the spectrum between those) are large portions.

 

We also know it is possible to scale encounters, and it could even be made easy to do for the developer were there both a well-built tool and their data elements already had hooks to allow that tool to adjust them (which Bioware may well have, just considering the requirements of managing an MMO).

 

So if the whole spectrum of preferences could be provided for without having to rework the quests themselves, what is already present for groups could be added for the rest of the player base for, I imagine, less than the cost of crafting a new planet and all its quests. That sounds cost effective, and shouldn't impact any player group negatively unless there is some faction who feels that, for example Huttball is exclusive to team play because that is (obviously) a team based sub-game. Surely Huttball wouldn't somehow become a soloable game... unless the players on a side weren't actually grouped I suppose... independents playing cooperatively maybe but I don't see that sort of effort as at all reasonable anytime without the implementation of time travel...

Edited October 9, 2014 by Gleneagle
mispelling

[ScarletBlaze]

Well, the "majority" is in question... I make no assertions on which side of the majority would land on in this case... frankly because I do not know, nor do you... we can both only use anecdotal evidence.

 

Now, there is a loss... less people to group with (if we use your estimation that the majority would prefer not to group), would mean for those who do prefer group content... that aspect of the game would shrivel up. That is a downside... if there are less people, being able to group will take longer (queues are bad enough (unless you are a tank) for HM FPs now. So it does have an impact. A significant one.

 

That would depend on if those people are using group pickup now. In my case I don't. The times I do groups I do with my guild, friends and boyfriend. I have yet to que up using group pickup in the 3-4 years I have been here. So there is really no way of knowing if this would hurt or if it would remain the same as it would depend on the person and whether they actually use group pickup.

[Drockter]

Again... I am not downplaying that some people may want solo content (obviously people do). Because I enjoy the game, and specifically the team aspect, I do not want to see an aspect that I personally enjoy be removed/hindered/or made less relevant. That has been my point all along. I respect the opinion of those who wish everything to be soloable, I simply do not share it.

 

I can concede that the "story" lines (Such as Forged Alliances), it does make some sense to have a solo mode option. If it would have ended at FA, or even Tactical Ops for that matter... we wouldnt be having this discussion. However, my fear (as evidenced in this thread shortly after Eric's post), was that it wouldn't be enough. Those advocating for solo would jump on this, and begin asking that everything (including end game ops) be scaled to solo. As was the case. This CAN have a significant impact on the very reason I play SWTOR (for the challenge, and the team play). I simply do not agree that the end game content of a MMO should be Solo.

 

So, just as those who advocate for solo play, I am advocating for team play. If for nothing else to balance the argument, and ensure both viewpoints are represented.

[LordArtemis]

@LordArtimus: Fine, be dismissive and above-it-all. Making reference to disagreement that implied that anyone with a different opiion seems threatened is an insidious rhetorical device and you should have anticipated this silly response to your suggestion. But, as you and others rightly pointed this is all a digression from the intent of the thread, and for that I apologise.

 

I still fail to see why grouping needs incentives if they are anything people actually prefer.

 

Well, first, if I seem dismissive and above it all, I offer my apologies.

 

To your second point, I don't think grouping needs any particular incentive. As i indicated, I think the problem sits with the community, expecting far too much from PuGs.

[Clarian]

Again... I am not downplaying that some people may want solo content (obviously people do). Because I enjoy the game, and specifically the team aspect, I do not want to see an aspect that I personally enjoy be removed/hindered/or made less relevant. That has been my point all along. I respect the opinion of those who wish everything to be soloable, I simply do not share it.

Yeah...for my part, I wouldn't WANT group play to shrivel and die for people who enjoy it. If everyone could have what they wanted, that would be fine with me.

 

But yes, I want a solo option for EVERYthing, and if for some reason only one side could have what they want...I would pick my side.

[Codedrago]

Funny you should mention that, we are actually going to do that very thing! It is really important as we head into Shadow of Revan that players have seen the Forged Alliances storyline. Although we will certainly never force you through it, we want to make it so that if you haven't played through it, you have an opportunity to see the whole storyline, even by yourself if you choose!

 

-eric

 

Me need eta, now!.....please?

[Kalfear]

Seems to be a very different mindset. Note, how Alec, for example says: "perfectly GREAT gear is handed over to you in the end of Oricon." Funny, 'cause I am worried my 156 gear with a 180 barrel is not enough to go to Oricon

 

.

 

and I stopped reading there

 

156 gear with a180 barrel means you should be soloing Oricon (including heroic 2) with ZERO DEATHS and zero NEAR DEATHS

 

But then again you are the poster who claimed Makeb was uber tough and challenging when in fact it was a cake walk while blindfolded, easily soloed at lvl 48 with normal non augmented gear.

 

It does seem the patern to your posts is you dont understand your character or your abilities and think anything you cant hammer shot (or its equivilant depending on class) through equals massive toughness.

 

Sad part is EA keeps dumbing things down for you and yours and eventually you will be forced to group up and your ops group will be in for a hugely negative experience based on your posted ability and skill.

 

Had a HM Flashpoint once where the commando DPS hammer shot and self healed the entire flashpoint till the group booted him. Starting to think that was you based ONLY on your own postings of your own experiences in game.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Kalfear

[LordArtemis]

Sad part is EA keeps dumbing things down for you and eventually you will be forced to group up and your ops group will be in for a hugely negative experience based on your posted ability and skill.

 

I think it's unlikely EA is dumbing things down for that particular community member.

[DarthDymond]

and I stopped reading there

 

156 gear with a180 barrel means you should be soloing Oricon (including heroic 2) with ZERO DEATHS and zero NEAR DEATHS

 

But then again you are the poster who claimed Makeb was uber tough and challenging when in fact it was a cake walk while blindfolded, easily soloed at lvl 48 with normal non augmented gear.

 

It does seem the patern to your posts is you dont understand your character or your abilities and think anything you cant hammer shot (or its equivilant depending on class) through equals massive toughness.

 

Sad part is EA keeps dumbing things down for you and eventually you will be forced to group up and your ops group will be in for a hugely negative experience based on your posted ability and skill.

 

Had a HM Flashpoint once where the commando DPS hammer shot and self healed the entire flashpoint till the group booted him. Starting to think that was you based ONLY on your own postings of your own experiences in game.

LMAO, this post is the SWTOR equivalent of "Bro... do you even lift, bro?"

[Kalfear]

I think it's unlikely EA is dumbing things down for that particular community member.

 

was meant as a generalized statement for that type of player

 

sorry thought that was obvious

[LordArtemis]

was meant as a generalized statement for that type of player

 

sorry thought that was obvious

 

Fair enough, but the disdain for players that support this kind of change was also obvious.

 

I understand you do not like the way MMOs are changing Kalfear, and you are not alone. In fact, I hated the loss of player looting and permadeath back in the day.

 

Progress tends to make everything easier eventually. It's just how things go. That doesn't mean you have to accept it...I suggest you stick to your guns...but demonstrating disdain for those folks that embrace those changes is a shallow stance to take IMO.

 

There are players that would look down on you for supporting housing and minigames. Just something to keep in mind, if you choose.

Edited October 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Kalfear]

Fair enough, but the disdain for players that support this kind of change was also obvious.

 

I understand you do not like the way MMOs are changing Kalfear, and you are not alone. In fact, I hated the loss of player looting and permadeath back in the day.

 

Progress tends to make everything easier eventually. It's just how things go. That doesn't mean you have to accept it...I suggest you stick to your guns...but demonstrating disdain for those folks that embrace those changes is a shallow stance to take IMO.

 

There are players that would look down on you for supporting housing and minigames. Just something to keep in mind, if you choose.

 

Actually Im ok with MMOs changing (long as they bring something innovative to the table, which is why I hated WOW, was a copy paste of everything before it but dombed down)

 

Its the dumbing down I hate

 

Im FAR FAR FAR from a hardcore progression player.

I hold my own for most part and do take part in progression content on a more casual basis

 

So Im far from the elitist nightmare player and even I see that its getting to easy.

Soon there will be no reason to even level in a RPG

They have already stripped most of the RP elements from RPGs and now they stripping the growing from the RPG

 

THATS MY ISSUE.

 

Im all for 2 man flashpoints and honestly have been in favor of it since launch

Im all for allowing companions in ops (which in effect would make it a 4 man ops group with 4 hopefully geared companions.

 

And if a player is good enough at their class,

understands their abilities

utilizes those abilities to the maximum

yes they will be able to solo those 2 man flash points

 

What Im against is dumbing the content down so badly that you can solo it with out thinking.

And THATS whats being asked for in this thread (they can paint it any way they want, thats what it boils down to ultimately)

 

Currently all 4 forged alliance flashpoints can easily be 2manned.

I know this because Ive done it on multiple occations

Rakata Prime, Korriban, Tython (now first boss fixed) can be solo'd by skilled players with geared companion (But its not easy and it shouldnt be)

 

Mannan is the only one of the 4 I truly do not believe can be solo'd (im sure someone has or claims to have but till I hear it done from someone Itrust and believe, Im not buying it)

 

So these things already are soloable

grand interaction and socialization is not required

 

So thats where my issue lays, the dumbing down of content to such a low level that only the utterly mindless could be entertained by it.

 

Since the change to Makeb Ive returned to it 3 times (conquest related)

I use to run Makeb weekly on 4 different characters every single week

but now its so utterly boring and mind numbingly easy I cant bring myself to do it.

 

CHANGE, EVOLVING, NEW IDEAS, NEW CONCEPTS

These are great and grand things that I fully embrace and love

 

Dumbing down to the lowest of the lowest is not something I embrace or want.

 

I dont think we need nightmare as the standard

Hell Ive even warmed slightly to easy mode (which SW:TOR has always been from day one) as the norm

 

but pushing it down to the lowest of the low below the low is just bad design, bad concept, bad business

 

And ultimately I doubt it will pay off long term for SW:TOR as a game

Because as the history of gaming and MMORPGs have shown us

When you set the bar to low,

you drive out most of those who come in over the bar

Which leaves those lower remaining by themselves and they move on to next big thing because they follow the herd, not lead it.

[DomiSotto]

I have often noticed that those who truly achieved mastery feel confident enough to not have the need to put down someone else. They share and shine.

 

Really, the amount of ire and righteous indignation you display makes me feel that the solo mode of the Forged Alliances is something the Old Guard actually wants. It allows inexperienced players (along with those who wants to play with the dialogues and stuff) to do the solo version if they so desire, while the elites will continue to take on the epic bosses in their brilliant displays of prowess.

 

(Shrug) To assuage your suspicions, I've never been to any HM Flashpoints, played a Mercenary or had a 2-abilities rotation (maybe on L1?). My one and only solo L55 so far is a Gunslinger. It will be a while till I have another one. I have no desire to play ops either.

 

I am perfectly happy with the story portion of the game, that now thankfully will flow to level 60.

 

I use to run Makeb weekly on 4 different characters every single week

but now its so utterly boring and mind numbingly easy I cant bring myself to do it.

 

If I had to run it 4x a week, I'd be bored too. Now, to me the whole daily grind feels like a problem. Have you tried PvP? I think that would give you all the need to use your abilities to the max with ever changing range of foes of various difficulty. You can even compete

Edited October 9, 2014 by DomiSotto

[_NovaBlast_]

I don't group that much other than my boyfriend and guild but I do think the better rewards (which is higher gear) should be reserved for Hard Modes Flashpoint, Operations and NM Operations.

 

(1) Solo these on story mode do not have the need for the higher gear as since it is a story mode you can use the story gear (156 or 162) and will be just fine doing them on story or solo mode.

 

(2) Hard Modes require higher gear just to get through them. 168 is the bare minimum for Hard Mode I would say though some have probably done it on 162.

 

(3) Nighmare operations need 180 for the most part to get through as they are harder to get through.

 

This is why the higher gear/comms should be reserved for hard modes flashpoints/operations and nightmare operations. It is not that they are being elite it is actually something they need to get through those flashpoints and operations.

 

So you may not agree with it but I can understand why they need the higher gear in those. I haven't done those as I don't have the gear for it. A friend of mine has 180 gear but she does the content that she needs them. I don't have 180 gear but I am not doing that content so I don't see the need for it. If I want the gear she has I will earn the credits or I will do the harder ones and get the gear for it. I don't expect to get the gear like that in story or solo modes as it is not needed for those.

 

If you truly want the 180 or 168 you can purchase them from the GTN at about 2-3million but I see no reason for that gear to drop from story or solo modes as it is not something needed to get through those flashpoints and operations.

 

I have to admit you make very good points and its a very well written response I have to agree with you from that standpoint your correct. However I am mainly referring to those peoples attitude who feel they deserve better loot than normal simply becase they play the harder modes not becase of necessity of having to have the better equipment to beat them

 

I also know you don't "need" the higher level equipment but being completely overpowered makes the game more fun for me .

 

Are you saying that catering to what this game is...an MMO and group heavy content is somehow a bad thing?

 

Well we have opposing views of the definition of mmos I believe a MMO just means multiple people are playing in the same environment at the same time ..it does not means you must group or even be social if you don't choose to be.

 

So yes I believe it is a bad thing. There should be a solo way for someone to do everything within a game . ( again it could be as easy as just let me use my whole crew as my "group" and i'll be happy.

 

Kalfear- i can't begin to describe how much i disagree with your opinions, posts and your attitude in general . Also from reading your posts i can safely say that for a number of reasons one of the biggest being is you seem to talk down to players you think are "bad" you're one of the best examples of the types of player that turn me off grouping in general.

Edited October 10, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[Merwanor]

Funny you should mention that, we are actually going to do that very thing! It is really important as we head into Shadow of Revan that players have seen the Forged Alliances storyline. Although we will certainly never force you through it, we want to make it so that if you haven't played through it, you have an opportunity to see the whole storyline, even by yourself if you choose!

 

-eric

 

This is the best news I have heard from SWTOR, as story is the main attraction to me. I have not played this game as I don't like doing flashpoints and story content with strangers as there are so many out there that tries to rush you and wants you to skip stuff. I wish they did this to all the content in the game, even raids. Soloable versions that does not really reward you any gear or anything, just so you can see the story.

[Raansu]

This is the best news I have heard from SWTOR, as story is the main attraction to me. I have not played this game as I don't like doing flashpoints and story content with strangers as there are so many out there that tries to rush you and wants you to skip stuff. I wish they did this to all the content in the game, even raids. Soloable versions that does not really reward you any gear or anything, just so you can see the story.

 

*sigh*

 

BW has opened up a can of worms with this stupid announcement. You should not be able to solo raids EVER. That content is for the group minded players and if people are telling you to spacebar in FP's just ignore them or group up with friends instead of pugs. Oh wait, solo players don't have friends in MMO's, I forgot about that.

[LordArtemis]

Actually Im ok with MMOs changing (long as they bring something innovative to the table, which is why I hated WOW, was a copy paste of everything before it but dombed down)

 

Its the dumbing down I hate

 

Im FAR FAR FAR from a hardcore progression player.

I hold my own for most part and do take part in progression content on a more casual basis

 

So Im far from the elitist nightmare player and even I see that its getting to easy.

Soon there will be no reason to even level in a RPG

They have already stripped most of the RP elements from RPGs and now they stripping the growing from the RPG

 

THATS MY ISSUE.

 

Im all for 2 man flashpoints and honestly have been in favor of it since launch

Im all for allowing companions in ops (which in effect would make it a 4 man ops group with 4 hopefully geared companions.

 

And if a player is good enough at their class,

understands their abilities

utilizes those abilities to the maximum

yes they will be able to solo those 2 man flash points

 

What Im against is dumbing the content down so badly that you can solo it with out thinking.

And THATS whats being asked for in this thread (they can paint it any way they want, thats what it boils down to ultimately)

 

Currently all 4 forged alliance flashpoints can easily be 2manned.

I know this because Ive done it on multiple occations

Rakata Prime, Korriban, Tython (now first boss fixed) can be solo'd by skilled players with geared companion (But its not easy and it shouldnt be)

 

Mannan is the only one of the 4 I truly do not believe can be solo'd (im sure someone has or claims to have but till I hear it done from someone Itrust and believe, Im not buying it)

 

So these things already are soloable

grand interaction and socialization is not required

 

So thats where my issue lays, the dumbing down of content to such a low level that only the utterly mindless could be entertained by it.

 

Since the change to Makeb Ive returned to it 3 times (conquest related)

I use to run Makeb weekly on 4 different characters every single week

but now its so utterly boring and mind numbingly easy I cant bring myself to do it.

 

CHANGE, EVOLVING, NEW IDEAS, NEW CONCEPTS

These are great and grand things that I fully embrace and love

 

Dumbing down to the lowest of the lowest is not something I embrace or want.

 

I dont think we need nightmare as the standard

Hell Ive even warmed slightly to easy mode (which SW:TOR has always been from day one) as the norm

 

but pushing it down to the lowest of the low below the low is just bad design, bad concept, bad business

 

And ultimately I doubt it will pay off long term for SW:TOR as a game

Because as the history of gaming and MMORPGs have shown us

When you set the bar to low,

you drive out most of those who come in over the bar

Which leaves those lower remaining by themselves and they move on to next big thing because they follow the herd, not lead it.

 

I get what your saying...and naturally you do not need my approval. I am only pointing out that demonstrating disdain for those that accept the "dumbing down" or desire it, as it were, is not a self respective position to take IMO.

 

You can hate what is happening to MMOs in this respect, you can even lament the loss of what made MMOs great in the past....or even speak to the evils of dumbing down content. But when you turn to attacking those that ask for it, your stance loses credibility IMO. It smacks of desperate action in my view, and that is NOT a strong platform from which to make your case.

 

You need to sell to folks why the old ways are the best ways....change minds, present ideas, make your case. That has a much more likely chance of success than throwing your self respect out the window and attacking those that support the changes you despise.

 

Instead, tell them what they are missing. Tell them about the sense of accomplishment, the fun of playing with others as a team, the pride in correct coordination of group actions, the lifelong friendships that result.

 

THAT is what has been lost IMO. THAT is what most solo players do not realize.

[Drockter]

BW has opened up a can of worms with this stupid announcement.

 

I think the last statement about solo players and not having friends was over the top... but this statement is dead on.

[_NovaBlast_]

*sigh*

 

BW has opened up a can of worms with this stupid announcement. You should not be able to solo raids EVER. That content is for the group minded players and if people are telling you to spacebar in FP's just ignore them or group up with friends instead of pugs. Oh wait, solo players don't have friends in MMO's, I forgot about that.

 

I think the last statement about solo players and not having friends was over the top... but this statement is dead on.

 

 

more people who prove post #175 to be true. You're partially right there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to want solo raids. There should not be "content" in flash points and ops to start with . The main focus for stories should be soloable content that's available for everyone

 

The group stuff should just be secondary optional random non main story mission stuff off to the side like pvp is.

Edited October 10, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[Clarian]

Instead, tell them what they are missing. Tell them about the sense of accomplishment, the fun of playing with others as a team, the pride in correct coordination of group actions, the lifelong friendships that result.

 

THAT is what has been lost IMO. THAT is what most solo players do not realize.

Are you sure about that? The fact that I don't like baseball doesn't mean I don't realize what appeal it has for the people who do like it. But...I still don't like it.

[Raansu]

another person who proves post #175 to be true.

 

 

Boo hoo you can't solo content designed for end game progression. Go back to the 97% of the game that you can solo. Raids and FP's are for end game progression and should 100% stay group oriented. You want to do a raid? Join a *********** group for story mode and run the raid. No ones forcing you to do end game progression and since you don't care about end game progression you obviously don't need to gear. Go buy some CM gear and RP on tatooine or something and stop asking for 100% of the game to be solo. Let group players keep some semblance of a REAL mmo alive.

 

The group stuff should just be secondary optional random non main story mission stuff off to the side like pvp is.

 

The *********** forged alliance FP's are TACTICALS. You can waltz through them with two people...... Are you really that afraid of other people that you cant even bother to run a TACTICAL FP!? For ****s sake why are you playing an MMO?

Edited October 10, 2014 by Raansu

[_NovaBlast_]

Are you sure about that? The fact that I don't like baseball doesn't mean I don't realize what appeal it has for the people who do like it. But...I still don't like it.

 

this person is wise you should listen to them.