Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Drake_Hound]

Not really. It's no more complex. They've added almost nothing new in the Utility Tiers for Sorc. It's generally stuff that were already in the trees. We already know all that stuff. And it's really, really easy to figure out which ones a player has by what they do, for example, Chain Shock. There's nothing hard to memorize. A Sorc casting on the move has Force Mobility. That's not hard to figure.

 

 

 

You seem to think you're getting new active abilities with the Utility Tiers. You get no new solution abilities. You get no new option abilities. Every single utility they showcased for Sorc was a passive. And they were almost all **** we already have in the trees. Now, yes. Some of those passives are good, like Force Mobility for casting 1 spell on the move, and the Cloud Mind giving damage reduction for those PvPers out there.

 

But there's definitely a lot of utilities in there that will never be picked by endgame players, either PvE or PvP. Just like now... in fact...

 

So we get **** when we level, cause it just unlocks automatically, and we still have the same old cookie cutter illusion of choice on a smaller scale. What, exactly, did we, the player, directly gain from this?

 

Oh. Right. Virtually nothing. Change to the amount of dev work, sure. Change to their balancing needs, sure. What did we get out of the deal concerning player customization? Zilch. Same skill tree options. Different interface to do 'em.

 

I am not impressed. I'm still having flashbacks of WoW. BioWare really needs to step up the Utility Tiers if that Sorc showcase is representative of the rest. The spread of useful utility is very top ended (naturally), and generally makes everything else not interesting by comparison, while still being subject to cookie cutter.

 

And passive don't appear on your hotbar, forcemobility does.

Yes the most important is what do we players get from it ?

Well truth, we get new abilities, sadly most people maths are way off, but they think they are smart.

When you min max it is based on maths, gear, certain tresh hold, you think those numbers 100% range/melee accuracy-110% tech/force accuracy 25% critical and 70% surge appeared out of nowhere?

 

Hybrid is the same thing, while 1% critical or 1% alacrity, seems trival mix it up with gear those 1% means maybe 1,5% someplace else. Now I understand most people don't understand anyway so they are too lazy and go look for cookie cutter online, and rotation guide! Then scream they are PRO cause they are hybrid.

A bit like .You know endurance is gear (hold some truth, but is also exploited if people endurance stack, that so called super endurance makes the toon useless)

 

Now, why am I even bothering to explain this, The change was going to go in.

The damage is just minor luckily, while it is never FUN to take away people options.

Atleast they didn't go so far as to dumb down the system that makes this game fun for advance players.

Meaning removing abilities, everybody ran into tanks who didn't taunt!

They never use those abilities till pointed at, now a lot of active abilities seem pointless.

Cause it is so situational, cademiu shackle how many people died there when they never use there break free.

Force barrier.

 

More active abilities is more combination, passive abilities give different combination.

Most are useless to people cause they never notice or really use them, speedboost removing snares.

Example

Forklightning is a dps boost but how much of a dps boost? People don't know.

What triggers forklightning, casting lightning strike or chainlightning, what happens in 10 lightning strike 3 will get a forklightning, but what happens if in those 15 seconds of lightning strike, somebody else get off 12 lightning strike.

 

Look Teltea, hybrid is very complex most people are not qualified to min max, or creative enough to find new playstyle. Now I look at the tree and I look at the utility.

Sure I would love RIFT system in SWTOR , but RIFT community is not SWTOR community.

Yes the discipline are streamlined, yes it is a big fat nerf and kill to hybrids.

But that doesn't mean it is a big fat KILL to the excisting mechanics. Of player skill and creativity > then cookie cutter builds with a average person,

That is what wow did, they just made everybody the same, force everybody the same playstyle.

No room for flexibility, even going so far as taking away base abilities. To make people play the game they want.

It works for WoW cause there community adapts but sadly people who are used to the old system with brains will leave.

 

Now we are shoe horned into set paths, tank/healer/dps... But atleast they admit they want to give the dps some hybrid options, by not removing the heals, just they shouldn't be as powerfull or beter then a fullspec healer.

If they did remove the heals from merc/commando operative/scoundrel sage/sorc. That is when they pigeonhole people into dps role! Just like wow did.

Atleast they admit that isn't there intend, they just want to kill hybrids that overly outperformed or are so inferior(to a point of uselesness) to there pure breed.

 

Well yes this is streamlining, but don't forget people here are cautious.

NGE, Blizzard changes, most of people hail from different mmo.

So offcourse most are cautious, if there is a 2nd streamlining we end up wow system again.

Then no matter what the "fans" of swtor say, people will drop out, usually the smart ones first.

[Karkais]

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor

 

Their timezone is central.

 

Thank you. My timezone offset is 8 hours. Meaning american primetime is usually like 3-5 am for me. Im not waking up at those times except really rarely.

 

ps. watching, my fears have not been unfounded at all.

"We have made huge amount of changes to pvp"

"the entire pvp is going to change"

"Do not be too alarmed"

 

Affliction has a skill that causes 30% slow for its entire duration, DoT's cant be cleansed at all? Does this mean that one sorc can keep the entire enemy team slowed for the duration of the pvp match?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Karkais

[MisterDC]

why does bioware hate hybrids so much? on almost every class i play i play a hybrid. why? not because i find some exploit or way to get better DPS (though some do offer that), but because its fun. it's an unnatural rotation that wasn't spoonfed to me by some narrow-minded tree that wishes to dictate how i play. i get to adapt, learn new skills. it is a challenge to overcome and, once mastered, becomes just as if not more deadly than playing normally.

 

as a sniper, i love the engineering tree, but i dont want my heaviest hitting ability to come from an exploit where i drop all five bombs in one place. so i would rather hybrid and not take that ability at all. i like sniping, so i'll pick up some goods from marksman, but keep some engineering around for the explosive fun. sure, some people call that an inferior way to play, but i find it more enjoyable. is that not what matters in a game?

 

another example: on my sorceror, to hybrid lightning with madness is very effective. to cut out the top tier of lightning for madness is very rewarding when death field is more deadly than thundering blast, and has an AOE instant cast, and then getting force lightning with no cooldown + the ability to cast lightning strike or darkness instantly. combined with the lightning tree instant cast perks, it pretty much means that i can throw alacrity out the window entirely and not suffer for it. perhaps you could call this an exploit. but should not the game developers award me for sticking with "their" way, if that's really what they want? in such a case, i would suffer much more for deviating.

 

yet, a good game developer doesn't say "this is how you will play, and no other" they give you a reason to play the way they want you to, to choose certain skills in a tree. even still, i find it incredibly boring to play exactly what some guide told me to play or to be using the same skills as everyone around me, even if it is effective. when you look exactly like every other sorcerer and fight like every other sorcerer, what's the point?

 

they keep saying this will add diversity, and i'm not cutting the game off just yet as i will wait and see if this is true. but right now, following a linear path of zero choice while having a few pick-up perks on the side seems way to straightforward, easy, and boring. i sincerely hope i am proven wrong later...

 

You just took the words right out of my mouth, I for one am someone that enjoyed playing my characters my way, in a hybrid style. After watching the twitch steam of the system I have to say I am now quite sure that I will not enjoy enjoy this game after its implementation. I will save my final decision for when it goes live, as I am sure many others will, but regrettably I feel will have to be looking for new mmo to play as this will not resemble the game that I have come to enjoy over the years.

[Drake_Hound]

http://dulfy.net/2014/10/07/swtor-sorcerer-disciplines-and-utilities-for-3-0/#Utility_Selection

 

Well based on this the changes are going deeper then discipline only.

Far deeper, so are we getting total change of what people know so far?

 

So if so basically lets skip the marketing speech. Cause it feels like a total overhaul of a lot of things.

That people in 3 years time learned to play.

 

Hmm guess will reserve my notion, this time till every overhaul is known,

Cause it isn't just a tree overhaul at all.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

I find myself remembering when a certain individual told the community that "no one wants to play Uncle Owen."

 

It is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted to tell people what THEY enjoy. Don't force YOUR preferred playstyle on me, I want to play it MY way. That's what I find fun. If the devs don't like the way I play it, and prefer their way, fine. They can play how THEY want. They shouldn't take away my ability to play how I want (unless there is some serious game breaking reason to do so - and I'm just not seeing that).

Edited October 9, 2014 by Vego_Mohenjo

[Karkais]

Look Teltea, hybrid is very complex most people are not qualified to min max, or creative enough to find new playstyle.

 

You are making an assumption that people WANTED to minmax it. I certainly didn't. I have never minmaxed any of my characters. I'm just playing for fun. (or, was.)

 

Fact: Melee classes already have gap closers. Most players just don't use them properly.

 

Fact: gap closers have cooldown

Fact: the one 3.0 class that we know something about, has knockback with immob element, force speed, and in 3.0 has a skill that adds 30% slow to affliction that is a spammable attack. And has slow in another spammable attack (FL)

 

Statement: we have no guarantee that melee wouldn't be screwed in a fight with ranged. One way or another. As a melee player I know I am ALREADY currently screwed in that fight. I dont even want to do a 1v1.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Karkais

[archieTevidor]

To Developer Team.

 

Not sure, maybe someone already told about this but accoring stream after sorc used Unlimited Power he got debuff with despription that unavailable to use Unlimited Power and 5 min cd on it. I noticed that it'll bring problem if every group utility buff will have own debuff. Ops frame can show 4 debuffs, usually it were Depressed, combat rev, bubble and some dot and it was okay. Now will be problem since this utility debuffs may interfere with the display of some debuff like Deathmark.

Well, I start to think if it's possible to solve and have suggestion - change color of this debuff with every new effect. I mean, for example, if character getting buff from Bloodthrist - will get yellow debuff, if getting additional buff, for example, Unlimited Power - then yellow debuff changing to blue color, if again getting one more utility buff like Supercharged Celerity, so debuff wil change color to purple. Also with every new color description for debuff will change according effects that were used.

It'll give us only one debuff in ops frames.

 

Another way is to inc count of debuffs that you can see in ops frames. But imo it's wont be good and for healers will be harder to track critical debuffs that have to be cleanse fast.

 

Mostly I like new changes but dissapointed that we'll have only 7 utility points to choose. Imo it's making system much easier and I don't like it becouse I'm hardcore PvE players and like to see a bit complicated system where need to think more about your skill tree. Well, I agree that usually ppl are using build that found in guides and etc and only changing like 5-6 points that not critical for tanking/healing/dpsing but illusion of choise making feel myself better

[Drake_Hound]

You are making an assumption that people WANTED to minmax it. I certainly didn't. I have never minmaxed any of my characters. I'm just playing for fun. (or, was.)

.

 

People want to feel powerfull, knowledgable, smart, rich, charming most of all succesfull.

 

Who wants to be dumb, ugly, stupid, obessed.

 

That is what leads to cookie cutter, that is what leads to hype.

FUN is simple do what I do, if things ain't fun stick the middle finger at people, and move on.

I don't need them am selfsufficient, same for this game, if game becomes boring.

I am doing something else. Currently not playing the game.

 

Just maybe I do care a bit not for me, cause it is a game, life is a game to me.

But doesn't mean, I don't understand why you are upset. Good reason to be upset.

But sadly it isn't going to change anything, they put too much work into discipline to scrap it now.

And with discipline comes bucket of changes, will it work out or was my original prediction correct (by end of next year only 250k sub and people laid off again) I hope not. Cause I really love the DEV team.

And the swtor community, but as before, does it affect me, not really. Sad to say it doesn't affect me one bit.

 

Sorry need a beter picture before I can say if all changes coming, going to affect the game in positive or negative light.

Sure for DEV/community team they need to live on the positive, there life is at the line.

But for players it is much simpler, they just do something else. No matter the investment.

It is worst to keep playing unsatisfied, thus infecting others with unsatisfaction, then just have fun someplace else.

But sadly mmo are always full of unsatisfied people.

[Arlechino]

I took the time to read some of the replies, some people are happy about the changes, others feel that this change takes away the unique way they have been playing this game thus far.

To those that are unhappy I have to say - there was nothing unique about your build. You, like so many others, took a hybrid build that tried to take the best talents of multiple trees, in order to gain an edge over the regular player that doesn't do that. Bioware does not want that, they don't want for people to gain unfair advantages by exploiting possibilities left in the system, but rather offer everyone the same arsenal to choose from, and - especially in pvp - let the skill of the player decide the outcome, not that one team has a dps that also has innervate (random example) and the other one does not.

I'm sorry if this will ruffle your feathers, but the true test of skill is against others that have the same weapons. Its nothing skillful about dpsing while also healing almost as good as a dedicated healer just because you copied a build that others used before you. The game - at least that's my opinion anyway - was not designed for this, that's why we have choices in the classes we pick, in the specializations that we get, the real skill has to come in how exactly we use the same weapons as everyone else, not about finding that one hidden build that would get us an advantage over normal players.

Ending my wall of text for the 1 person that kept reading this far I want to say - this is very good for the new players, it lets them immerse themselves in this game world while also being able to perform a role right away, it gives new as well as old players, a new incentive to perform a harder role, such as tanking or healing because now they can be effective right away, instead of waiting 30 levels to be able to sustain damage or heal under pressure.

[JacenCbaoth]

Damn 49 pages already!

I really really hope this is included (or the issue raised already)

 

The ONE KEY POINT above all else that the discipline system needs to introduced is the quick respec system, allowing players to quickly switch between their different trees via presaved skill point layouts (preferably including ui layout, keybinds and armour options).

 

I really hope this at least covers the skill point element - i couldn't see it in the marketing blurb?!

If it doesn't cover it then seriously BW ***?! This will be a pointless rehash of the current system purely to save you time re-balancing the few extra points and to prevent player creativity making a difference. - nothing more, nothing less

 

I really hope you haven't flopped (i won't hold my breath, but fingers crossed nevertheless...pls pls pls don't be a fail).

[LordTux]

I took the time to read some of the replies, some people are happy about the changes, others feel that this change takes away the unique way they have been playing this game thus far.

 

Hello all,

 

Well i was for the changes and still hang to my decision after the stream, the ones that are against were going to play

their toons a unique way after the cap increase, actually we are almost all under an efficient build picked up on the net, exactly what disciplines will bring by default to our toons.

 

Cheers.

[Deewe]

The ONE KEY POINT above all else that the discipline system needs to introduced is the quick respec system, allowing players to quickly switch between their different trees via presaved skill point layouts (preferably including ui layout, keybinds and armour options).

They mentioned there won't be such quick respect in 3.0

 

You have to manually edit everything, you mentioned.

[LordTux]

They mentioned there won't be such quick respect in 3.0

 

You have to manually edit everything, you mentioned.

 

and said also they have plan for that, following priorities order, we will have it one day, hope soon.

[Gleneagle]

... What, exactly, did we, the player, directly gain from this?...

Not much except significantly increased potential for new content and more useful engineering from a designers perspective. Those were the explicit and implicit reasons cited and implied in the video.

 

The vast array of hybrids, both extremely powerful builds and gimps, made it a serious problem for designers of new content or the addition of new skills to make new content challenging (for the OP hybridizations) yet accessible for the gimped builds.

 

There is an upside to simplification, especially from an engineering standpoint, that is difficult to explain to the closed-minded.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Gleneagle
spelling

[Aikiyc]

And passive don't appear on your hotbar, forcemobility does.

 

I just rewatched the stream. Force Mobility does not appear on his hotbars. I dunno which stream you were watching.

 

Not much except significantly increased potential for new content and more useful engineering from a designers perspective. Those were the explicit and implicit reasons cited and implied in the video.

 

...

 

There is an upside to simplification, especially from an engineering standpoint, that is difficult to explain to the closed-minded.

 

I see you quoted only one line from my post. Did you fail to read that I was questioning what we gain directly in relation to our RPG character customization? I get that this Discipline crap makes things much faster and easier on the dev side so they can do other things. I think I even said as much in my original post.

 

Yeah, we have illusion of choice now. We definitely still have illusion of choice with Discipline. But we only have 7 things to pick. We lost customization, however trivial or pointless. I'm not defending illusion of choice, per se, but one of the big draws for me in RPGs is the fact that I can change some of which of the abilities I get to fit my playstyle. Even if it's just a formality.

 

Apparently all we can change after 3.0 is gear, seeing as the Utility Tiers are largely what we already have. Am I missing anything?

 

Edit: I guess what I'm getting at is, yes, okay, Discipline might be good for the health of the game. But. But! Instead of losing things, could we perhaps have gotten a system that gives us things? Discipline is just skill trees hashed down to 7 choices. Is there something different they could have done that would've given us something new concerning player choice?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Aikiyc

[Mariojediwookie]

Interesting, will have to see this in full before I know if it's good or bad.

 

For everyone complaining about WOW, I played Galaxies pre-NGE. I had unlocked a jedi. Nothing I've seen in the changes proposed so far appear to be even close to what happened in that game. I guess I always thought everyone was already cookie cutter in the game currently anyways. I go to 10 different sites and all of them have the same spec for all the classes lol. Everyone has always been cookie cutter.

[zevronic]

Why is it after years of playing different MMO's that whenever I hear a developer say balance it automatically translates to NERF? Hmmm

[LordHartigan]

A picture is starting to form in this debate. I asked earlier what exactly is 'dumbing down', and it appears for a lot of you that seems to mean getting rid of hybrids, customization, creative character builds, 'playing your character the way you want to play' using the skill trees. Those of you in that camp need to gain a little objectivity and perspective an realize why you're just gonna have to suck it up.

 

Let's use an extreme example. One poster earlier said basically said they don't like the system because it's cookie cutter and I can no longer do my hybrid and play the way I want to play. Do you not think there are players out there who want to play one toon that can heal, dps and tank? Hybrids in most cases are just a lesser degree of that. The Sorc. that can heal and dps effectively I'm sure is a lot of fun, but it also unbalances the game to the point where keeping such hybrids available and maintaining balance means everyone else has to do the same thing. You're complaint that BioWare should allow more freedom of choice would actually result in less viable choice in the long run if one actually cares about playing a toon that is indeed viable. And guess what? A lot of players care about that. We've already seen this. What is the go to endgame assassin dps spec? Madness. Keep in mind there are two intended options (more counting hybrids). But the only viable one really is madness. There's a difference between the appearance of choice and viable choice.

 

Secondly in the bigger picture there are those of who like to tinker with specs, are into the math and all of that. You hardly have grounds for complaint that BioWare is dumbing things down. At the end of the day for the game to be financially viable it needs to be accessible and not just to the hard core whom I guess like complexity for the sake of complexity.

[Gleneagle]

...Apparently all we can change after 3.0 is gear, seeing as the Utility Tiers are largely what we already have. Am I missing anything?

I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but I did get the impression there were still choices to be made selecting what they are calling utilities and those gate the availability of useful skills. So if I'm right (no guarantees) then we get to set which array of actual skills based on what utilities we select from within the more general template (type 1, 2, or 3). So if I choose type 1 I will set what role I'm choosing similarly to what we have now and will unlock some , what was it, nine possible utilities for basic, nine for advanced, and nine for mastery. Of all of those (27?) potentials I get to select at least seven to fill into my rotation. So there is some 'build' to it, some variety, but limited to game-viable mixes.

 

That is still a limitation and that seems like it would be a downside. But I wish to point out that the rose grows taller if upon a trellis. A metered poem with a pleasing rhyme scheme can be as or more beautiful than free-form. And landscapes present merits that Pollack paintings lack. The difference looks like limitation, is structure, and as you have admitted will make it easier and therefore less expensive to craft new content.

[Gleneagle]

Why is it after years of playing different MMO's that whenever I hear a developer say balance it automatically translates to NERF? Hmmm

Same reason no battleplan survives the opening of an engagement. Humans can never adequately plan for ingenuity. Ingenuity is what players bring to every game.

[Ed-ward]

Judging from comments general buzz I was thinking that the game is going to hell - the same way the biggest MMO did. After watching the stream however, I have changed my mind.

 

I play mostly PvP and I made hybrids not to increase my dps output but to get utility skills that I considered essential or very tempting. By speccing into hybrid I was sacrificing my main spec, often to the point of crippling it. The new system ensures that I will get to play the spec I want while cherry picking the abilities I craved for from other trees.

My main is sage and I could see from the video, that the changes were for the good of the class.

 

The only thing I do not like are the three tiers of utility points. While I did personally squeeze into the restriction while taking everything I want, I can see how this might not be the case with other players or classes. I would like to see that you are able to pick any combination on max level. This way it feels that you consider some abilities more powerful and there will be problems with the concept. Personally I consider some of the abilities on lower tiers more powerful than the ones in T3 as they were presented in stream.

 

As a side note, I am a HUGE fan of what you are doing with alacrity. With alacrity now not only affecting DoT and HoT ticks but also cds of abilites, this stat will become finally useful.

 

Overall, I can see that you are making an effort, you are trying to address the problems and so far it seems you are (for the first time) doing a good job. Thumbs up.

[Ryuku-sama]

Eric... Just a question I had 5 mins ago. Sorc are getting Lightning Bolt and Demolish which are intended to replace Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness??? We know that they share the same CD. But how does this relation react to interrupt. Let say I'm casting Lightning Bolt and I'm interrupted, will it also affect Lightning Strike??? The problem is kinda moot for Demolish since it is normally instant outside of certain situation where you anyway won,t be interrupted, but it can be of huge importance for a Lightning Sorc.

 

EDIT : Interrupt with a lock-out.. Not a stun, a mezz or a knockback.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Ryuku-sama

[RaptorKarr]

This may be the Best Idea (Or Worst) you guys have ever had, lets see what happens

[generalstonestar]

I hope this won't come with a dumb-down.. I like the rotations we have.. They are easy but maximizing them still needs some work. I hope the utility points will actually be useful and allow for a numbers of variations and not just one for PvP and one for PvE.

And between.. With this new system.... I hope you plan to make so we can have more than 22 toons on a single server

 

50? Do you just make characters log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out make another character log out?

 

I think I made my point.

[Ryuku-sama]

50? Do you just make characters log out x50 (guess it was the intention)?????

 

I think I made my point.

 

No... But assuming someone want to try leveling through every single spec in the game on both side, it would take him 48 toons.. 50 is just more round.