Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Aetideus]

Well, you see, bobby hit billy first so bobby wins...

 

There was a lot dmg. Wondering about healing and dcds.

[Dontelar]

Hmm, looks interesting. Not really sure what to think of it. On one hand, I'm really enjoying my current Consular's hybrid Healer/DPS build that I am using right now for questing. On the other hand, this means that we can at least count on random people in FPs and OPS to have a decent build.

[Kaymac]

I'm probably just going to go on hiatus until this thing is released, at which point my fears will probably be confirmed and this game removed from my hard drive... thankfully the holiday releases should keep me busy till Everquest Next is on the horizon.

[Asacledhae]

This definitely looks promising...

Must admit, that I STILL feel weird about this change, but at least from what I saw, our chars will feel a lot more powerful from earlier levels... Not having to wait for level 45 to actually feel effective, is always a plus.

 

Now I'm really looking forward to check all this out, and see how my characters are going to "feel" with their new toys...

 

[Vego_Mohenjo]

Well. I'm rather worried by this.

 

First, this game has always had a very carefully crafted balance. Legacy powers started the slide into imbalance. I'm VERY concerned this will do the same.

 

Second, and more significantly, this looks like a loss of diversity. My Commando, for instance, has a careful blend of healing and gunnery traits, giving him some solid healing with some decent damage output. I could be wrong, but what I'm seeing here is the removal of the ability to do a bit of both things. Am I going to be FORCED into playing JUST as a healer, or JUST as a damage dealer?

 

This last is a game killer. I've seen it before, more than once. I cannot stress enough how serious this could be for a game that's already walking a knife edge. Be VERY, VERY CAREFUL, Bioware.

 

As I say, I don't want to predict doom, but this has me very worried... and I've never been wrong about this before.

[Arijharn]

I read it but i could read how WoW works... com'on is like a copy paste and I'm a big fan of swtor. This idea have throw away lot of people from WoW, I'm really shock

 

It's not quite the same as how WoW works is how I read it, although there are some assumptions.

[RicoJohnsen]

Interested in seeing what future streams/posts will tell us of the other advanced classes and more of 3.0

[gksngkjsgnbgi]

I guess I have to see it in action but why do I get a really bad feeling about this? Yolo

[Karkais]

The illusion of choice is in the 18 utilities currently you can only select 7-8.

 

But thise 7-8 are class make or break utility from first pick.

That is a huge difference between wow system, where they just had 1 sucky 1 ok, 1 must have.

So example if healers wanted stun bubbles, they just sacrifice one utility. They want none rooted sprint another.

Dpsers wanted healing overload they can .

 

See combination is tailored to what you prefer as player. Your playstyle as sorc, instead of must have cause everyody has it.

 

Im waiting someone to show how this new system WOULDN'T create cookie cutters, since that was one of the arguments used against the old system.

[shamefulweevil]

This may have already been asked, but i also missed the live discussion today, As far as disciplines go, will we be able to get skills from other parts of the "trees" For example, on my Gunslinger, i have most of my skill points placed into my sharpshooter skill tree, but i have about 5 or 6 points put into the other trees because they boos my cunning or endurance, will this still be possible with disciplines?

[Kainozorva]

I loved it when they got rid of skill trees in WoW, and I love it here.

+++

[AmericanNate]

This may have already been asked, but i also missed the live discussion today, As far as disciplines go, will we be able to get skills from other parts of the "trees" For example, on my Gunslinger, i have most of my skill points placed into my sharpshooter skill tree, but i have about 5 or 6 points put into the other trees because they boos my cunning or endurance, will this still be possible with disciplines?

 

A lot of those skills will just become passives that you will pick up as you level a character. Some of the skills that created synergies between passive and active abilities is what has been added to the Utility skills. And instead of these utility skills only being available to 1 spec, they're making them available to every discipline for the AC. So, you'll have to choose the synergy that best suits your style. I found it rather intriguing. It very much reminds me somewhat of the Traits system from GW2.

[CatStar]

Im hopeful that it will still give me a decent set of powers, Ive messed with mine until i found the right combination for a few of my toons, even bought the field respec for field testing MY designs. Im just concerned (especially being a former STO player) that this will end up being a nerf for some of us. Change makes me nervous, but Ill be positive since this company isnt PWE.

[Drakoswar]

"Don't tell me what to do and i won't tell you where you should go." ©

 

On a different note, i'm glad that people like you are nothing but a vocal minority here.

 

 

 

I see a contradiction here. It seems the real reason why you left WoW is that you've just found a game that suits your tastes better.

 

I am a pro-gamer so I know at the end of the day what I have to say is listen to by many gaming companies and all you have is this post in one dying games forums. Best of luck to you.

[belhawk]

i seen this nerf balancing in HGL/HGG to get better balance, and they are gone. I will wait and see if BWs new system is good or bad. My bet is bad, I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the ending of ME 3. Why can't we play the game the way we, the customer wants?

[HawkMarshal]

I am deeply worried about the development of this game.

As i understand it, the new discipline system not only completely annihalates the game experience we got acustomed to. Its main function is parving the road for something NOONE realy wants: constant inflation of progress made in the game. Nobody needs or wants a new level cap. Nobody wants to see his oder her equipment, earned by a massive time Investment and commitment, rendered practicaly useless. All statements emphasizing the remaining value of elder equipment are pure hypocricy, if not cynism.

I hope the developers of the game will one day find a way to provide new game experiences without robbing players of everything they invested in their game characters.

I strongly petition against an increase in level cap. An alternative would be a complete refund for old equipment, so the new equipment can be obtained instantly. I strongly petition to respect the time and hardships endured in obtaining high end gear.

From a pvpers perspective: all i want to see is some new warzones and maybe a more rewarding open world pvp System.

[fujeo-finell]

I am deeply worried about the development of this game.

As i understand it, the new discipline system not only completely annihalates the game experience we got acustomed to. Its main function is parving the road for something NOONE realy wants: constant inflation of progress made in the game. Nobody needs or wants a new level cap. Nobody wants to see his oder her equipment, earned by a massive time Investment and commitment, rendered practicaly useless. All statements emphasizing the remaining value of elder equipment are pure hypocricy, if not cynism.

I hope the developers of the game will one day find a way to provide new game experiences without robbing players of everything they invested in their game characters.

I strongly petition against an increase in level cap. An alternative would be a complete refund for old equipment, so the new equipment can be obtained instantly. I strongly petition to respect the time and hardships endured in obtaining high end gear.

From a pvpers perspective: all i want to see is some new warzones and maybe a more rewarding open world pvp System.

 

Speak for yourself.

[Kawarino]

Are you planning to make pre-build characters or we will able to choose? Just to know if this wonderful game is turning in a WoW-copy.

Talent trees are a perfect way to personalize your characters, without that we will bounded in a linear path.

[Drake_Hound]

Im waiting someone to show how this new system WOULDN'T create cookie cutters, since that was one of the arguments used against the old system.

 

the cookie cutter argument is hard to beat, since utility are tailored to players own preference.

And sooner or later min maxing will create a cookie cutter that is optimal.

 

What discipline brings is that number crunching needed and maths needed.

Since most don't understand it, is prevented as much as possible. It will still be there.

But easier to prevent, since instead of nerfing or tailoring everything to prevent a build.

They have easier access to alter the build.

 

Now the biggest issue in WoW cookie cutter is that you are forced to play the way DEV wanted you to play.

By limiting abilities, downtuning hotbar to less abilities, in discipline we would only gain more abilities.

More button is always more combinations. More combinations leads to more unexpected behaviour.

So while builds are cookie cutter the usages isn't.

 

From my sorc perspectied, I only gain more solutions to deal with particular situations .

Since I gain more options

Now when the merc is streamed, I can see if I would lose buttons or gain more.

Since my main is a merc, and I used everything from concussion missile to fusion missile.

To chaff , so if the merc is streamed so far am "told" I am gaining atleast 1 more button pushing my 16-17, my 22-23

And I would gain casting on the move making it 18 -24 my hot bar would be severly crowded.

 

Heroic utility cause of limited to 2 is the cookie cutter for now, since they are make or break so severly.

That most people would choose the new abilities, but without the utility tree public.

So far a lot of things are speculations, and they are not set in stone.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Looks like speccs will be less versatile and be played they way they are meant to be played by Devs. I'd have to see all the utility choices for the classes I play to make a solid assessment, but I expect an optimal combination of Utility talents to emerge for every Discipline soon. Then you'll move 3 points around at best, dependeing on different boss fights. It's streamlining the classes.

 

There's two sides to this for me: On the one hand I always loved exploring hybrids, I'd done it with Hybrid Gunslinger for over a year pre 2.0 and beyond and after 2.0. with Dotsmash. Finding out the intricacies of Dotsmash and maximizing its potential was among the best experiences I had in the game. Dabbling with abilities from different trees, testing synergies and then optimizing rotations - I found that to be a very creative and rewarding process. This will end.

 

On the other hand I can absolutely understand that Devs just want to put their time elsewhere and don't want to analyze possible Hybrids that can severely alter class balance and even content balancing. I'd rather have them throw new operations at us more frequently even if I have to play them with a "streamlined" class...

[Drake_Hound]

I am not denying it is called streamlining, but since the hybrid options have been moved into utility and base abilities has not been severly altered (hope that remains that way )

 

Well they did define the discipline abilities thus hampering the power min maxing, like innervate in a dps spec.

Or tracer missile into merc healer spec. It thus end hybrid power min maxing.

But at the same time, easier access to kolto bomb hot for example. It doesn't mean hybrid playstyle is dead.

But again you are absolutly right without the full utility tree, we can't do anything yet.

 

But atleast is isn't as bad as wow, where you are 100% forced to play the way DEV wants you to play.

That was simply terrible with my shaman utility so severly removed and streamlined. It simply wasn't a shaman at all.

So as long they streamline the tree, not the abilities everything will be the same.

Not dumbed down, sure a second round of streamlining could push us into WoW territory.

But why should they, if people want to push 6 buttons max, and never use the other abilities given.

It is up to them you can't force anybody to play optimal anyway.

[Wazupeth]

 

Now the biggest issue in WoW cookie cutter is that you are forced to play the way DEV wanted you to play.

By limiting abilities, downtuning hotbar to less abilities, in discipline we would only gain more abilities.

More button is always more combinations. More combinations leads to more unexpected behaviour.

So while builds are cookie cutter the usages isn't.

 

From my sorc perspectied, I only gain more solutions to deal with particular situations .

Since I gain more options

You sir are wrong!

Disciplines are exactly that same thing, only difference is that showing us "the path" our abilities are gained with levels give you the impression it's not a straight-forward "progression". You can't deviate from the path the devs created.

Also the more abilities is a illusion as well, because of the level cap raise. There are new abilities at 56,57,59, two of which are passives and one active that REPLACES Lightning Strike. It's not really more, is it?

As for the HYBRIDS? They are dead. I asked, they clearly said it. You wont be able to use Death Field as lightning sorc. Period. You are forced to use Thundering Blast, which is utter "sith" compared to DF-long cd, long cast time and single target not that much of a damage). Didn't see cd removal for Force Lightning on the utility tooltips either. So no more playing it the way we like for most of us. The Utility points are just "fine tuning" options without much impact on play style(except the cast-while-moving one).

Now I get that it's a lot to keep all the hybrids in check etc. But Bioware took away our favourite builds without even giving Dual Spec and Gear Manager in return. REALLY BW? It's on your priority list for a while now? I guess making another pair of the same pants for CM was more important.

But ok I get that. I also get that this change is mainly for new players and altoholics to feel more powerful early on. And it's cool, cause I am an altoholic. But to make us click through all of that stuff each time we respec? WoW, Thats Lazy.

I have a solution though for making both: hybrid fans and devs happy. Let us choose one of the other discipline's core ability as a Utility. So as Lightning sorc lets say a choice between Death Field and Dark Infusion(with Chain Lightning as a Lightning Disc core ability). At the cost of some other important thing, like say that cast-while-moving perk(or some high dmg utility), so we can choose between higher dps and more aoe. Not that much more work for devs and we still can have some choice on how to play.

[Malechieh]

Yell at me all you want, but so far all I am seeing is something along the lines of... "Well Blizzard did it with WoW, let's do it with SWtoR!" Personally, I really hated it when Blizzard got rid of the skill trees. Maybe I am reading how this is going to work all wrong, here's to hoping I am and here's to hoping this works out well!

[Trollokdamus]

"Well Blizzard did it with WoW, let's do it with SWtoR!"

I think it's more like "Well Blizzard did it with WoW and the results were satisfactory, let's do it with SWtOR so we get the same results!" My opinion, of course.

[Pourekos]

Yell at me all you want, but so far all I am seeing is something along the lines of... "Well Blizzard did it with WoW, let's do it with SWtoR!" Personally, I really hated it when Blizzard got rid of the skill trees. Maybe I am reading how this is going to work all wrong, here's to hoping I am and here's to hoping this works out well!

 

That's exactly how it feels to me as well unfortunately. I mean they could very well make you select a spec prior to assigning any points on the tree that then gives you a passive that buffs by 100% (random number is random) all the spells that spec is supposed to use. So if you pick dps spec, then even if fully specing and gearing as healer, you wouldn't have that major buff and your output would be limited. That would have had even bigger effect on hybrid specs. But no, lets do what Blizzard did!

 

Additionally, the main problem is that in WoW hybrids at least got to keep some basic/iconic off-spec abilities (so DPS paladins/druids kept some basic heals and tanking tools for example) while I am suspecting that from what they said during the stream they (BW) will strip DPS specs from all such tools. I hope that's not the case, because I don't want to play an FPS MMO but rather an RPG MMO like SWTOR is supposed to be.