Assassins and Shadows in 3.0

[Aelanis]

I'm wondering if they'll actually make Phase Walk/Assassin's Shelter be on par compared to what the other classes have there.

 

That and I want my self-heals back in some form, but that's a pipe dream.

 

What do you mean when you say "on par?"

 

Phase Walk, in a 16 man setting where each healer would put out 8k hps on their own, gives you an "effective" contribution of 1600 hps. Even in 8 man at half of that, that's a lot more healing contribution than either of the other tanks bring to the table.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Aelanis

[Rieverre]

What do you mean when you say "on par?"

 

Phase Walk, in a 16 man setting where each healer would put out 8k hps on their own, gives you an "effective" contribution of 1600 hps. Even in 8 man at half of that, that's a lot more healing contribution than either of the other tanks bring to the table.

 

I mean it's _still_ clearly leftover from when we had self heals. And comparatively speaking, while it has group utility - should the group actually use it - it's solo utility is nil. While I love the Darkness SIN, even I have to admit that for solo runs it's basically useless. It was marginally useful when we had self-heals, but now? I've always been jealous of, say, a PT Shieldtech's version of the shoulder launcher. Merc's Electronet? Nice. And so on and so forth. Phase Walk? I just don't feel the love.

 

Besides, that HPS contribution is for static fights.

 

Face it, Phase Walk and Shelter are the red headed stepchildren of 2.0.

[Hockaday]

I mean it's _still_ clearly leftover from when we had self heals. And comparatively speaking, while it has group utility - should the group actually use it - it's solo utility is nil. While I love the Darkness SIN, even I have to admit that for solo runs it's basically useless. It was marginally useful when we had self-heals, but now? I've always been jealous of, say, a PT Shieldtech's version of the shoulder launcher. Merc's Electronet? Nice. And so on and so forth. Phase Walk? I just don't feel the love.

 

Besides, that HPS contribution is for static fights.

 

Face it, Phase Walk and Shelter are the red headed stepchildren of 2.0.

 

Pretty much this. Though, Phasewalk does have other uses, unfortunately using it for those uses removes the healing part. Then you have the ability to stand in it, or lack there of on some fights, etc etc. But eh, Sins just don't get any love for tanking. Can't wait to see how they nerf us in 3.0, and buff Jugs.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Hockaday

[Rieverre]

Pretty much this. Though, Phasewalk does have other uses, unfortunately using it for those uses removes the healing part. Then you have the ability to stand in it, or lack there of on some fights, etc etc. But eh, Sins just don't get any love for tanking. Can't wait to see how they nerf us in 3.0, and buff Jugs.

 

Heard Juggs already get better self-healing ... then again, that's not hard. Freaking PTs get better self heals than we do. The class that is, you know, _supposed to have it as their thing_.

 

Freaking Madness and Hatred get stuff Darkness should have. I _miss_ us having the most staying power. It genuinely balanced our relative squish. At least in small group or solo play.

 

Hell, even trickle heals off of Dark Charge procs would be nice. Just give us _something_.

[Aelanis]

Pretty much this. Though, Phasewalk does have other uses, unfortunately using it for those uses removes the healing part. Then you have the ability to stand in it, or lack there of on some fights, etc etc. But eh, Sins just don't get any love for tanking. Can't wait to see how they nerf us in 3.0, and buff Jugs.

 

Heard Juggs already get better self-healing ... then again, that's not hard. Freaking PTs get better self heals than we do. The class that is, you know, _supposed to have it as their thing_.

 

Freaking Madness and Hatred get stuff Darkness should have. I _miss_ us having the most staying power. It genuinely balanced our relative squish. At least in small group or solo play.

 

Hell, even trickle heals off of Dark Charge procs would be nice. Just give us _something_.

 

A few misconceptions here:

 

1) Shadows are just not in that bad a place. All tanks are struggling in PvP, and it's not absurdly worse on Shadows. Tank balance in PvE is in a really good spot right now. In addition: none of the tanks have really seen any major changes since 2.4 (when Shadows got their self heals removed), so the idea that Shadow Tanks aren't getting any love (especially when they excel in the current endgame PvE content) is a little silly.

 

2) Our self heals made us tremendously overpowered in low damage situations and underpowered in very high damage situations. People (especially people who don't do hard mode and nightmare mode PvE content at a relevant level) never got to see a lot of the higher damage situations, and so only see where we took a nerf. But still: we weren't just good in low damage situations: we were extremely overpowered compared to the other tanks.

 

3) Juggernaut self heals are still on the same order of magnitude as they were before the changes to Enraged Defense. They've always had small self heals in their Sonic Barrier, and the extra heals from Enraged Defense are much smaller than the Sonic Barrier heals. Assuming I can get all 10 stacks used on cooldown (which is far from what happens in most situations outside of Arenas), in full 180 gear, my Guardian would have 166 heals per second from Focused Defense. It's just not as much healing as people seem to think it is: it's just very concentrated.

 

As a corollary: Guardian tanks are at their strongest when they can get disproportionate uptime on their DCDs. This just happens to happen a lot in Arenas, where all cooldowns are reset, and so they perform better there, as their average mitigation is much better than the other tanks due to always having cooldowns to use. They've received no changes to make them better in arenas: that's just an environment where a cooldown tank will excel.

[Rieverre]

A few misconceptions here:

 

1) Shadows are just not in that bad a place. All tanks are struggling in PvP, and it's not absurdly worse on Shadows. Tank balance in PvE is in a really good spot right now. In addition: none of the tanks have really seen any major changes since 2.4 (when Shadows got their self heals removed), so the idea that Shadow Tanks aren't getting any love (especially when they excel in the current endgame PvE content) is a little silly.

 

2) Our self heals made us tremendously overpowered in low damage situations and underpowered in very high damage situations. People (especially people who don't do hard mode and nightmare mode PvE content at a relevant level) never got to see a lot of the higher damage situations, and so only see where we took a nerf. But still: we weren't just good in low damage situations: we were extremely overpowered compared to the other tanks.

 

3) Juggernaut self heals are still on the same order of magnitude as they were before the changes to Enraged Defense. They've always had small self heals in their Sonic Barrier, and the extra heals from Enraged Defense are much smaller than the Sonic Barrier heals. Assuming I can get all 10 stacks used on cooldown (which is far from what happens in most situations outside of Arenas), in full 180 gear, my Guardian would have 166 heals per second from Focused Defense. It's just not as much healing as people seem to think it is: it's just very concentrated.

 

As a corollary: Guardian tanks are at their strongest when they can get disproportionate uptime on their DCDs. This just happens to happen a lot in Arenas, where all cooldowns are reset, and so they perform better there, as their average mitigation is much better than the other tanks due to always having cooldowns to use. They've received no changes to make them better in arenas: that's just an environment where a cooldown tank will excel.

 

1. It's not that SINs/Shadows aren't getting any love - I know they're in a pretty decent place. It's just that Phase Walk is comparatively 'meh' when up against Saber Reflect or the PT's healing missiles.

 

2. I've played HM FPs from 2.0 to 2.4 as well as hitting some event bosses. I know we're more tanky now. In _just_ those situations. Everything else took a hit. I'd just be reiterating the same points that've been repeated over and over if I got deeper into this. I miss having the best freaking sustain of all the tanks. This is no longer the case. And we were only 'tremendously' overpowered if we also overgeared stuff.

 

3. Fluff-wise, Sins should have the self-healing. Madness actually does, which is nifty, but Darkness? Nooope. Jugg's with the semi-heal of Endure Pain and the Scream shield as well as ED have it more and more often. PTs have Kolto Overload which is _ridiculously_ good and the healing missiles. Just give us back the trickle heals from Dark Charge and we'll be happy at this point, really.

 

And I don't give a damn about arenas.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Rieverre

[PlagaNerezza]

Heard Juggs already get better self-healing ... then again, that's not hard. Freaking PTs get better self heals than we do. The class that is, you know, _supposed to have it as their thing_.

 

Freaking Madness and Hatred get stuff Darkness should have. I _miss_ us having the most staying power. It genuinely balanced our relative squish. At least in small group or solo play.

 

Hell, even trickle heals off of Dark Charge procs would be nice. Just give us _something_.

 

Endure Pain is 100% better than the self-healing that was so problematic with assassins in PVE. Its OP in pvp and makes tanking in pve easy mode. Oh my health is getting low. ED. I cannot believe endure pain was allowed to be in the game like this. The self-heals I got from my tank assassin were not even remotely close to full health from zero that my juggie gets. We assassins have a lot to complain about from the tanking nerf they did to us. That was crap if your going to give another class better self heals after taking ours away.

[Aelanis]

1. It's not that SINs/Shadows aren't getting any love - I know they're in a pretty decent place. It's just that Phase Walk is comparatively 'meh' when up against Saber Reflect or the PT's healing missiles.

 

2. I've played HM FPs from 2.0 to 2.4 as well as hitting some event bosses. I know we're more tanky now. In _just_ those situations. Everything else took a hit. I'd just be reiterating the same points that've been repeated over and over if I got deeper into this. I miss having the best freaking sustain of all the tanks. This is no longer the case. And we were only 'tremendously' overpowered if we also overgeared stuff.

 

3. Fluff-wise, Sins should have the self-healing. Madness actually does, which is nifty, but Darkness? Nooope. Jugg's with the semi-heal of Endure Pain and the Scream shield as well as ED have it more and more often. PTs have Kolto Overload which is _ridiculously_ good and the healing missiles. Just give us back the trickle heals from Dark Charge and we'll be happy at this point, really.

 

And I don't give a damn about arenas.

 

You conveniently left out all forms of operations in your number 2, where, in level 55 content, we saw an almost universal increase in survivability. In HM operations and above, it was strictly an increase in survivability. And it wasn't just where we overgeared it: even at gear level we were strictly stronger in lower damage content. We really did see a big survivability increase: you just had to have a decent amount of incoming damage. I just healed a HM FP, and had 1k effective hps on the final boss in it, and that was split between all 4 team members. Even double that, it's just not a lot of damage.

[Aelanis]

Endure Pain is 100% better than the self-healing that was so problematic with assassins in PVE. Its OP in pvp and makes tanking in pve easy mode. Oh my health is getting low. ED. I cannot believe endure pain was allowed to be in the game like this. The self-heals I got from my tank assassin were not even remotely close to full health from zero that my juggie gets. We assassins have a lot to complain about from the tanking nerf they did to us. That was crap if your going to give another class better self heals after taking ours away.

 

I think you're mixing up Endure Pain and Enraged Defense, for one, because Endure Pain grants temporary health, and doesn't truly heal you for any amount, it just buys you a few seconds of 30% extra health, and then goes away.

 

Besides, Enraged Defense isn't as OP as you seem to think it is. You can stun them, kite them for a few seconds, and completely waste their cooldown, and in warzones you can simply ignore them and go after other targets. It's also nice in PvE, but far from problematic. It also just so happens to have a 2 minute long cooldown. The only time it starts looking like a huge amount of healing is when you focus them in arenas, where they can pop Enraged Defense and almost immediately use all 10 stacks.

 

The reason our self heals were taken away was because they were stronger, and we relied on them as part of our general mitigation, as opposed to having a cooldown. I said before in this thread: 166 hps if used on cooldown in full Dread Forged gear. My self heals at level 50 were far better than that on my Shadow. I was getting 250+ hps from just Telekinetic Throw.

[Jiminison]

Endure Pain is 100% better than the self-healing that was so problematic with assassins in PVE. Its OP in pvp and makes tanking in pve easy mode. Oh my health is getting low. ED. I cannot believe endure pain was allowed to be in the game like this. The self-heals I got from my tank assassin were not even remotely close to full health from zero that my juggie gets. We assassins have a lot to complain about from the tanking nerf they did to us. That was crap if your going to give another class better self heals after taking ours away.

 

Right on Plaga!!

Don't let the Pve Shadow/Assas Reps try to confuse you by acting like Pve is the same as pvp... I play a pure tank shadow I play a pure tank Guardian my guardian out heals anything my shadow ever did at any phase of this game and puts out more damage with lesser gear .He/she would be able to pull the wool over our eyes if most of us didn't have both classes so in this case experience trumps all their parses and statistics any number can be manipulated and pvp is just not stable enough for any of this mumbo jumbo to translate the same way. In my opinion the twins just want us to "trust" them (Nixon fingers) no matter what we see match after match with our own eyes. It appears more and more shadows are seeing through the sith they spit on here . We shall see what 3.0 brings but the people who want to shut down any opinion or Idea that gets posted in here need to be ignored or called out on their obvious bias toward all other tanks and classes because they sure are not helping the class they supposedly play as mains.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Jiminison

[Lanzend]

Right on Plaga!!

Don't let the Pve Shadow/Assas Reps try to confuse you by acting like Pve is the same as pvp... I play a pure tank shadow I play a pure tank Guardian my guardian out heals anything my shadow ever did at any phase of this game and puts out more damage with lesser gear .He/she would be able to pull the wool over our eyes if most of us didn't have both classes so in this case experience trumps all your parses and statistics any number can be manipulated and pvp is just not stable enough for any of this mumbo jumbo to translate the same way. In my opinion the twins just want us to "trust" them (Nixon fingers) no matter what we see match after match with our own eyes. It appears more and more shadows are seeing through the sith you spit on here . We shall see what 3.0 brings but the people who want to shut down any opinion or Idea that gets p8osted in here need to be ignored or called out on their obvious bias toward all other tanks and classes because they sure are not helping the class they supposedly play as mains.

 

^^^gets it. Concur 100% from EXPERIENCE.

 

Theory crafters can't possibly "mathimatize" all the variables in PvP, nor use of utilties that the diff specs have which is more important for PvP than PvE (when's the last time you saw a Guardian force push a raid boss for utility). Also keeping in mind that tanking in PvP is 180° different from PvE in terms of what you need to do. You can't be so focused on presicely set rotations, channeling shat for 3 secs, etc.

 

Also just one point out of many: Glaring absence in shadow tanks is lack of a spamable EFFECTIVE aoe slow. 30% slow on a 9s CD isn't on par with the other two tanks 50% aoe slow on gcd and is barely noticeable (VGs get an additional 70% aoe slow with 30% accuracy debuff on a 1 min cd THAT SITS ON THE GROUND FOR SEVERAL SECONDS). Inb4 "but 5% DR debuff". l spit on 5% as a dps. And the other two tanks have the same 5% DR debuff in other abilities. At least with dark maul I can keep two dps tgts 50% slowed almost all the time with subsiding techniques, but as if other things weren't already a biach to manage. There is a list larger than just aoe slow in which SinTanks are at a disadvantage in PvP.

 

When I get some time I'll list stats, dcds, abilities and utilities for all three tanks from a PvP perspective assuming full brute and compare, then we can have a real discussion about what needs to be done with KC in the future to be on par.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Lanzend

[Aelanis]

^^^gets it. Concur 100% from EXPERIENCE.

 

Theory crafters can't possibly "mathimatize" all the variables in PvP, nor use of utilties that the diff specs have which is more important for PvP than PvE (when's the last time you saw a Guardian force push a raid boss for utility)...

Brontes Nightmare, the final burn phase. I also see Force Slow used here, as well as Freezing Force. I also use Force Push all the time in PvE to reset my force leap when I need to get around quickly. Oh, and by the way, KBN actually does tank on his Shadow, so he's got the numbers he's put together as well as his experience in at least regular WZs. We should ask him nicely to please stream for us sometime so that we can see how it goes.

... Also keeping in mind that tanking in PvP is 180° different from PvE in terms of what you need to do. You can't be so focused on presicely set rotations, channeling shat for 3 secs, etc.

 

Also just one point out of many: Glaring absence in shadow tanks is lack of a spamable EFFECTIVE aoe slow. 30% slow on a 9s CD isn't on par with the other two tanks 50% aoe slow on gcd and is barely noticeable (VGs get an additional 70% aoe slow with 30% accuracy debuff on a 1 min cd THAT SITS ON THE GROUND FOR SEVERAL SECONDS). Inb4 "but 5% DR debuff". l spit on 5% as a dps. And the other two tanks have the same 5% DR debuff in other abilities...

No, Guardians don't get a damage debuff. They get a DR increase of 3%, but that doesn't affect their allies as well. 5% is nothing to spit at either, considering that halfway negates Bloodthirst and almost completely negates Nerve Wracking.

... At least with dark maul I can keep two dps tgts 50% slowed almost all the time with subsiding techniques, but as if other things weren't already a biach to manage. There is a list larger than just aoe slow in which SinTanks are at a disadvantage in PvP.

 

When I get some time I'll list stats, dcds, abilities and utilities for all three tanks from a PvP perspective assuming full brute and compare, then we can have a real discussion about what needs to be done with KC in the future to be on par.

 

Go for it. I'm very willing to admit that Shadow tanks are not at the top of the pack in PvP tanking, and I've never tried to say they are. I've only tried to say that the mitigation issues aren't unique to Shadows (watch a Guardian with none of his cooldowns up, it's pretty funny) and that the damage we can put out is a lot better than people seem to think if we just follow the ideal Shadow Protection rotation. Funny how our optimal mitigation rotation is our highest damage and threat rotations as well.

[Lanzend]

Brontes Nightmare, the final burn phase. I also see Force Slow used here, as well as Freezing Force. I also use Force Push all the time in PvE to reset my force leap when I need to get around quickly. Oh, and by the way, KBN actually does tank on his Shadow, so he's got the numbers he's put together as well as his experience in at least regular WZs. We should ask him nicely to please stream for us sometime so that we can see how it goes.

 

No, Guardians don't get a damage debuff. They get a DR increase of 3%, but that doesn't affect their allies as well. 5% is nothing to spit at either, considering that halfway negates Bloodthirst and almost completely negates Nerve Wracking.

 

 

Go for it. I'm very willing to admit that Shadow tanks are not at the top of the pack in PvP tanking, and I've never tried to say they are. I've only tried to say that the mitigation issues aren't unique to Shadows (watch a Guardian with none of his cooldowns up, it's pretty funny) and that the damage we can put out is a lot better than people seem to think if we just follow the ideal Shadow Protection rotation. Funny how our optimal mitigation rotation is our highest damage and threat rotations as well.

Thanks for response. I'm def not trying to pick any fights here and I consider your work and that of KBN to be very valuable to the community. Shadow tanking does great in regs where there is little focus and quite a bit of zerg. But in ranked 4s its tank tunnel, gg. The same Strat on equally geared and skilled guardian/jugg results in a lot of wasted time for the other team to take advantage of. Maybe I should just accept that this is just one of those specs that isn't good for team ranked like many others. Anyways, I would really like to cross reference the 3 specs and measure them up pound for pound in ranked/reg PvP to communicate the picture I think I'm seeing.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Lanzend

[Aelanis]

Thanks for response. I'm def not trying to pick any fights here and I consider your work and that of KBN to be very valuable to the community. Shadow tanking does great in regs where there is little focus and quite a bit of zerg. But in ranked 4s its tank tunnel, gg. The same Strat on equally geared and skilled guardian/jugg results in a lot of wasted time for the other team to take advantage of. Maybe I should just accept that this is just one of those specs that isn't good for team ranked like many others. Anyways, I would really like to cross reference the 3 specs and measure them up pound for pound in ranked/reg PvP to communicate the picture I think I'm seeing.

 

Well, Snave got Eric Musco for an interview earlier today (today still in the US, last night in the EU), so maybe you can get them to talk about it if you try REALLY hard (or bribe Snave )

[Rieverre]

You conveniently left out all forms of operations in your number 2, where, in level 55 content, we saw an almost universal increase in survivability. In HM operations and above, it was strictly an increase in survivability. And it wasn't just where we overgeared it: even at gear level we were strictly stronger in lower damage content. We really did see a big survivability increase: you just had to have a decent amount of incoming damage. I just healed a HM FP, and had 1k effective hps on the final boss in it, and that was split between all 4 team members. Even double that, it's just not a lot of damage.

 

... no, I 'conveniently' left OPs out because I haven't run any. I did run Xeno HMs both before and after the change and I explicitly said I realize we're more tanky now. Sadly, it came at the cost of losing a fair bit of the unique flavor tank Assassins/Shadows had, and negatively impacted our sustain outside of those situations.

 

So, you're throwing points I've already acknowledged months ago back at me.

[Vember]

Endure Pain is 100% better than the self-healing that was so problematic with assassins in PVE. Its OP in pvp and makes tanking in pve easy mode. Oh my health is getting low. ED. I cannot believe endure pain was allowed to be in the game like this. The self-heals I got from my tank assassin were not even remotely close to full health from zero that my juggie gets. We assassins have a lot to complain about from the tanking nerf they did to us. That was crap if your going to give another class better self heals after taking ours away.

 

Quoted for truth. There is a reason Kinetic/Darkness specs no longer exist in pvp.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Vember

[laughingbuddha]

Give us a kick of some type. Maybe a spinning kick, again. Just because it'll look cool and make the class more fun.

 

Actually, spike or low slash would work as a kick.

Edited October 16, 2014 by laughingbuddha

[ChroniKill]

Based on the sorc preview, for tanks I'm expecting either shock or double strike (probably shock) to be replaced at level 57 and a new ability at 41. At the moment I think they're in a fairly good place, so what that ability will be I've no idea. Perhaps a gap closer teleport type ability.

[Petvin]

Based on the sorc preview, for tanks I'm expecting either shock or double strike (probably shock) to be replaced at level 57 and a new ability at 41. At the moment I think they're in a fairly good place, so what that ability will be I've no idea. Perhaps a gap closer teleport type ability.

 

Tanks get force lighting replaced and no new ability

 

And madness will be.... odd. Raze will be on a 10 sec icd and bloodletting on a 15 sec icd

Edited October 19, 2014 by Petvin

[ChroniKill]

Tanks get force lighting replaced and no new ability

 

No new ability? That bites. Has anyone got a link to the changes?

 

Edit: Thought the changes were public through a live stream i missed. Ignore this if they're under an NDA.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ChroniKill

[stavrakas]

No new ability? That bites. Has anyone got a link to the changes?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/2jp802/assassin_30_easy_to_read_by_level_wutilities/

[Rieverre]

Ugh. Assassin's Shelter is still in. Okay, I mean, the 5% increase in outgoing healing, I can kinda understand. The 3% incoming as a passive to you is nice but it kind of obligates a Darkness SIN to run with a healing companion if not grouped.

 

Again, guys, this made sense for 2.0 with self heals, even if it was still kinda underwhelming then. Now, not so much.

 

Similarly Insulation just seems like the objectively wrong utility choice for Darkness.

[sithBracer]

Dark Stability sounds like someone's idea of a joke to get our hopes up. Even if it is really datamined from 3.0, I doubt it will make it to the final release. But if it did ...

[invertioN]

Where can we complain that Shadow Balance is changing to Serenity? Balance makes much more sense to be the name for shadows... because the spec is a balance between force and melee attacks. What balance are we talking about for ranged shadows (sages)?? Edited October 20, 2014 by invertioN

[Altheran]

Where can we complain that Shadow Balance is changing to Serenity? Balance makes much more sense to be the name for shadows... because the spec is a balance between force and melee attacks. What balance are we talking about for ranged shadows (sages)??

 

Balance between Light and Dark side. Toying with one's mind and life force, and stealing it isn't exactly what can be called "Light Side".

 

Even Revan describes his mixed powers as Force in balance

Edited October 20, 2014 by Altheran