Why are gunships so OP?

[EvenHardNiner]

People just sit there half the match and end up with 15 kills 0 deaths and everyone else who doesn't use a gunship gets more deaths than kills?

[Kcin_Trebla]

Yep.

TY BW for Gunships.

Best advice: get a GS yourself and get used to it as it seems the Whole GSF thing is abandoned to itself atm.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Kcin_Trebla

[Magira]

Now I thought I get here the ultimate answer to a vital question. And what is it: The usual whining after a lost game.

[Asbetos]

L2P

 

Plenty of guides and tutorials right here on this forum, also plenty of vets and aces that you can ask.

[Danylia]

I'll try to answer seriously:

 

- They stack extremely well with each other. One Gunship generally isn't a problem. Two covering each other are still doable, but already a thorn in the side. Anything more requires either well coordinated effort to break (assuming roughly equal skill level on both sides), or fighting fire with fire - that means bringing your own stack of gunships.

 

- They "shoot first". Again, that can be relatively easily avoided when there's only one (or two) Gunships, but otherwise they will have the advantage of the first hit due to their superior range. And due to the nature of Railguns, this first hit will likely be quite devastating.

 

- They have high skill floor. Players who would only be able to hit asteroids when flying Scouts of Strike Fighters can still be pretty annoying in a Gunship.

 

Combine these points together and you should have your answer. Trio of average pilots who wouldn't be able to scratch a veteran if they were flying Scouts/Strike Fighters will be able to kill him when flying Gunship - at worst by attrition (stacking the "unavoidable" first hits).

[SammyGStatus]

When you can tell me how a T2 Scout can sit there, not pop anything, I pop wingman on my GS, fire 30 freakin shots, and miss everyone, THEN I'll tell you how to beat a GS. Oh wait, I just did. Answer: T2 Scout

[Buggleslor]

If you've allowed a gunship to sit still and do nothing but line up shots for the whole match, that's on you.

 

The annoying thing about gunships is any moron can sit there, put the targeting circle over the little red circle and press the button. What balances this out is that any moron doing that without situational awareness or piloting ability can be destroyed in 2 passes by a stock type 1 scout coming from any angle outside the cone the gunships sees when it's zoomed in.

 

I level my alts almost entirely on gsf so I spend a lot of time in ships with no upgrades, and a bad pilot in a fully-upgraded gunship is easier to kill than that pilot in a scout or strike, because they're moving around less and you can just dump rocket pods into them with wild abandon.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Buggleslor

[Asbetos]

When you can tell me how a T2 Scout can sit there, not pop anything, I pop wingman on my GS, fire 30 freakin shots, and miss everyone, THEN I'll tell you how to beat a GS. Oh wait, I just did. Answer: T2 Scout

 

Where's that Like button when you need it

[Urglab]

They're not op.

 

They are a priority target though because if you let them snipe without pressure they're gonna wreck your team.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Urglab

[Icebergy]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703906

[Devrius]

They are not so much OP as they are badly implemented, in Star Conflict they have an equivalent but these ships have a visible laser sight that shows not only when they are charging their sniper shot but *where* they are aiming.

 

Basically in GSF, where missiles have an audible/visual cue, the sniper shots that are easier to land and hit as hard or harder come with no warning which is just dumb..

 

In GSF you need to keep an eye out to the horizon while dog fighting and keep track of glows in the distance, which is not always possible.

 

Last night in Harbringer we where having a nice fight neck and neck for a while, then we started to get the upper hand until they had 8 GS, got ahead of us and then retreated to their spawn point guarded by bombers and scouts.

 

We lost by 20 points, they did not out-skill us, just camped and snipered away...

[Fractalsponge]

They are not so much OP as they are badly implemented, in Star Conflict they have an equivalent but these ships have a visible laser sight that shows not only when they are charging their sniper shot but *where* they are aiming.

 

Basically in GSF, where missiles have an audible/visual cue, the sniper shots that are easier to land and hit as hard or harder come with no warning which is just dumb..

 

I hope the equivalent ships are compensated with much more mobility than gunships are in GSF. The ability to land surprise shots is the only ship to ship advantage gunships have. Once alerted, a dogfighter can shut a gunship down pretty fast.

 

In GSF you need to keep an eye out to the horizon while dog fighting and keep track of glows in the distance, which is not always possible.

 

Yes. If you could always easily pick out when you are targeted by a railgun, you'd never get hit, because you can pop cooldowns and get to LOS. OR charge the gunship and kill it. Gunships have piss poor survivability when focused - pretty much just the aces will routinely have a chance to survive or win against real scout pressure.

 

Last night in Harbringer we where having a nice fight neck and neck for a while, then we started to get the upper hand until they had 8 GS, got ahead of us and then retreated to their spawn point guarded by bombers and scouts.

 

We lost by 20 points, they did not out-skill us, just camped and snipered away...

 

Well, since your team didn't really adapt to the change in the match, and the fight was apparently close initially, I'd say the other team DID outskill yours by the end. The tactics to deal with it are as old as gsf - get some of your own gunships to ion aoe the ball and distract them, then charge with scouts. After that the enemy formation collapses, and there's no covering fire. At that point it's cleanup.

 

The only "problem" is that it's much easier to piece together an ad hoc bomber ball than to break one. But ship choice does not automatically tell you anything about the skill or experience levels of the pilots of those ships. Not being able to adapt to changes in a match, however, does tell you something.

[Devrius]

I hope the equivalent ships are compensated with much more mobility than gunships are in GSF. The ability to land surprise shots is the only ship to ship advantage gunships have. Once alerted, a dogfighter can shut a gunship down pretty fast.

 

Nope they have the slowest turning rate and speed, Frigates are literally gunships in the true sense of the word: heavely armored and shielded, with huge guns and powerful missiles.

 

As for shutting down a GS, this tired argument of "Once alerted, a dogfighter can shut a gunship down pretty fast" is only true in a vaccum, in-game 2 and more GS stacking and watching each other can't be taken down "pretty fast". This is a team game, this argument only holds water if this where a duel between 2 ships..

 

 

 

Yes. If you could always easily pick out when you are targeted by a railgun, you'd never get hit, because you can pop cooldowns and get to LOS. OR charge the gunship and kill it. Gunships have piss poor survivability when focused - pretty much just the aces will routinely have a chance to survive or win against real scout pressure.

 

Yeah, no... The most fearsome GS pilots are not fearsome because they can shoot someone who never sees them coming, they are feared because they learned more then: press mouse 2, scroll back, hold mouse 1, release. They can shoot someone mid flight while zig zaging, fire back using BLCs, Clusters and so on...

 

 

 

Well, since your team didn't really adapt to the change in the match, and the fight was apparently close initially, I'd say the other team DID outskill yours by the end. The tactics to deal with it are as old as gsf - get some of your own gunships to ion aoe the ball and distract them, then charge with scouts. After that the enemy formation collapses, and there's no covering fire. At that point it's cleanup.

 

The only "problem" is that it's much easier to piece together an ad hoc bomber ball than to break one. But ship choice does not automatically tell you anything about the skill or experience levels of the pilots of those ships. Not being able to adapt to changes in a match, however, does tell you something.

 

This is just not true, we killed 8 in a row, they all advanced as one and covered each other while the ones that where alive hid behind them, it was all over we couldn't break them out of their formation.

 

The only way we could have won is if we had done the same thing before..

 

Yes ship choice does tell something about skills, because GS are what everyone falls back into when they are getting out piloted in a dogfight.

[Fractalsponge]

Nope they have the slowest turning rate and speed, Frigates are literally gunships in the true sense of the word: heavely armored and shielded, with huge guns and powerful missiles.

 

As for shutting down a GS, this tired argument of "Once alerted, a dogfighter can shut a gunship down pretty fast" is only true in a vaccum, in-game 2 and more GS stacking and watching each other can't be taken down "pretty fast". This is a team game, this argument only holds water if this where a duel between 2 ships..

 

Um, yes they can. I do it regularly. It takes a more careful approach, and depending on the numbers, *gasp* more scouts to go in with you. The point being that balanced team layouts will almost always win against gunship walls, when skill levels are comparable.

 

Yeah, no... The most fearsome GS pilots are not fearsome because they can shoot someone who never sees them coming, they are feared because they learned more then: press mouse 2, scroll back, hold mouse 1, release. They can shoot someone mid flight while zig zaging, fire back using BLCs, Clusters and so on...

 

Hitting someone while zigzagging - yeah, that's a good one. Ever hear of confirmation bias. Do you actually play a gunship? The shots against wildly maneuvering targets are marginal shots, and rarely successful against a good pilot. Given the evasion meta, the majority of shots against a zigzagging pilot that isn't even aware of the gunship will likely miss. When I roll gunship I'll hit the 70s for accuracy, but I can tell you that's never because I'm hitting zigzagging ships - it's because I avoid those shots because they're wastes of weapon pool.

 

And fearsome pilots are fearsome because they're good. Yes. Please tell me how how this affects the ship class they fly? Because a bad gunship is a far easier mark than a bad scout.

 

This is just not true, we killed 8 in a row, they all advanced as one and covered each other while the ones that where alive hid behind them, it was all over we couldn't break them out of their formation.

 

The only way we could have won is if we had done the same thing before..

 

Sounds like they were better organized or really experienced. Teams of random scrubs, or even PUGs of good pilots, don't "move as one."

 

Yes ship choice does tell something about skills, because GS are what everyone falls back into when they are getting out piloted in a dogfight.

 

Your server is weird. The vast majority of people in my experience fall back on battlescouts when really pressured. And I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. If you're not doing well with one strategy, switch to another.

 

IF you're implying that choosing a gunship because it's the best choice for a given face-off somehow marks someone as a worse pilot, then get a clue. A ton of the top gunship pilots I've encountered are lethal in other ships, and vice versa. Learn other ships before you make some blanket accusations.

[Devrius]

Um, yes they can. I do it regularly. It takes a more careful approach, and depending on the numbers, *gasp* more scouts to go in with you. The point being that balanced team layouts will almost always win against gunship walls, when skill levels are comparable.

 

Not true, a team of 8 GS and 4 bombers that is leading by a single point will win every time.

 

 

 

Hitting someone while zigzagging - yeah, that's a good one. Ever hear of confirmation bias. Do you actually play a gunship? The shots against wildly maneuvering targets are marginal shots, and rarely successful against a good pilot. Given the evasion meta, the majority of shots against a zigzagging pilot that isn't even aware of the gunship will likely miss. When I roll gunship I'll hit the 70s for accuracy, but I can tell you that's never because I'm hitting zigzagging ships - it's because I avoid those shots because they're wastes of weapon pool.

 

I fly them on occasion (unwinnable matches, unlosable matches only to slowly get them mastered), I can't hit someone who zig zags but I've seeing it done by ace GS pilots.

 

And fearsome pilots are fearsome because they're good. Yes. Please tell me how how this affects the ship class they fly? Because a bad gunship is a far easier mark than a bad scout.

 

You're the one saying that the only thing GS have going for them is shooting someone who doesn't see them coming, not me. I'm pointing out that only scrubs on GS think that way.

 

 

 

Sounds like they were better organized or really experienced. Teams of random scrubs, or even PUGs of good pilots, don't "move as one."

 

Yes, because PUGs do not have access to the group chat...

 

 

 

Your server is weird. The vast majority of people in my experience fall back on battlescouts when really pressured. And I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. If you're not doing well with one strategy, switch to another.

 

ServerS, I've seen this on Prophecy, Harbringer and TEH.

 

IF you're implying that choosing a gunship because it's the best choice for a given face-off somehow marks someone as a worse pilot, then get a clue. A ton of the top gunship pilots I've encountered are lethal in other ships, and vice versa. Learn other ships before you make some blanket accusations.

 

I'm not implying that choosing to pilot GS marks someone as a worse player, I'm saying that the sniper class in every game where it's available is the crutch everyone falls on when out skilled, because you don't need to be better then the enemy to kill it, you just need to out range them and with enough snipers in your team you can prevent the other team from doing anything and win through attrition. Every time I see this scenario, which is often, no one has any fun, one team can't lose and the other can't win.

 

That's not a strategy it's an exploit of the game lack of true balance...

[Ryuku-sama]

ServerS, I've seen this on Prophecy, Harbringer and TEH.

 

False. I've flown on TEH. And every single good pilot will fall back on a T1 or T2 scout. Some will fall back on a T3 strike. Three pilots will fall back on their T1 GS. Aimbot. Tsuku. Alex. No one else. Bad pilots will fall back on a GS because a bad GS left by itself will be good enough to wreck opposition. A bad scout will never do anything. A bad GS focused will die like a fly.

Seriously learn to fly before posting such nonsense. I can't remember the number of gunship I've killed with my bomber just by charging them straigth and laughing at them missing their shot only to be killed by my HLC. Seriously. GS is the single easiest ship to kill. Four servers. Seven pilots good enough in their gunship to be a problem. It's not the class that have a problem, it's you. So learn to fly, stop stuttering nonsense before your thread become another of those 'nerf skill and good pilots' thread.

[caederon]

The only problem with gunships is that inexperienced pilots have no idea how to deal with them, or bombers, and they get punished mightily for it.. PUGs are full of inexperienced pilots on many occasions. It's not the gunships that are the problem, it's the people flying straight into them and getting blown up because they don't have the sense to take a different tactic that are the problem.

That's not a strategy it's an exploit of the game lack of true balance...

The issue with balance stems from disparity in pilot skill between teams. The ship classes aren't that poorly balanced at all. Many people just don't know what to do. PUGs lack coordination, and are likely to lose to a coordinated team that is flying in just about anything.

 

Don't be so convinced in your own rightness that you won't consider alternate explanations or strategies. And for goodness' sake, before you dismiss someone's arguments so lightly, consider who you're talking to. Take a look around the forum and see if you spot Xi'ao's name anywhere...

 

- Despon

[Devrius]

The only problem with gunships is that inexperienced pilots have no idea how to deal with them, or bombers, and they get punished mightily for it.. PUGs are full of inexperienced pilots on many occasions. It's not the gunships that are the problem, it's the people flying straight into them and getting blown up because they don't have the sense to take a different tactic that are the problem.

 

The issue with balance stems from disparity in pilot skill between teams. The ship classes aren't that poorly balanced at all. Many people just don't know what to do. PUGs lack coordination, and are likely to lose to a coordinated team that is flying in just about anything.

 

Don't be so convinced in your own rightness that you won't consider alternate explanations or strategies. And for goodness' sake, before you dismiss someone's arguments so lightly, consider who you're talking to. Take a look around the forum and see if you spot Xi'ao's name anywhere...

 

- Despon

 

I want to say something but I can't, this is all logical and I actually feel bad!

 

This game just pisses me off so much... It had so much ****** potential but now we don't even have admins to check out the bugs reports and we'll never see the improvements that could have made it popular beyond it's few hardcore players.

[caederon]

we'll never see the improvements that could have made it popular beyond it's few hardcore players.

I would rather that GSF was not so unforgiving to new players, too. It's not a game where you can succeed by participating in a casual manner. I definitely understand your perspective, since I solo-queue a lot I end up in frustrating matches plenty of times. I had one recently where I did more damage than the sum total of the other 11 people on my team, and we lost of course... that is not to say I'm awesome, but rather that there are great disparities in team strength happening all the time. It's bad for anyone who likes competitive games.

 

That said, I try to be part of the solution and give advice and general guidance to new pilots whenever possible. Other vets do, too. Drakolich has a whole thread for that on the forum here. Regardless of what Bioware does, we can make the game better by educating those who are less experienced but want to learn. So learn, dig into the forums, find the vets when they're online and ask questions. See who might want to group with you. Find some people you like flying with, and get a 4-man 'premade' (I could rant about, the use of that term as a catch-all excuse for people who just got stomped to explain why they lost) together. Help the people you fly with understand tactical decisionmaking and come up with some strategies to deal with tough enemy teams. Open your mind and soak up as much knowledge as you can, then put it to practice in the game. It won't all come together immediately, you'll still have rough matches, you'll still get stuck in blowouts at times, but you'll improve... and then suddenly, those impossible tactical problems start to have solutions.

 

If you see me online as Despon / Desponn / Beris / Beriss , bug me for advice or a group. I fly on Begeren Colony, Ebon Hawk, Shadowlands, Jedi Covenant, occasionally Bastion, and even sometimes Harbinger. Coming soon to a server near you.

Edited September 21, 2014 by caederon

[Devrius]

I would rather that GSF was not so unforgiving to new players, too. It's not a game where you can succeed by participating in a casual manner. I definitely understand your perspective, since I solo-queue a lot I end up in frustrating matches plenty of times. I had one recently where I did more damage than the sum total of the other 11 people on my team, and we lost of course... that is not to say I'm awesome, but rather that there are great disparities in team strength happening all the time. It's bad for anyone who likes competitive games.

 

That said, I try to be part of the solution and give advice and general guidance to new pilots whenever possible. Other vets do, too. Drakolich has a whole thread for that on the forum here. Regardless of what Bioware does, we can make the game better by educating those who are less experienced but want to learn. So learn, dig into the forums, find the vets when they're online and ask questions. See who might want to group with you. Find some people you like flying with, and get a 4-man 'premade' (I could rant about, the use of that term as a catch-all excuse for people who just got stomped to explain why they lost) together. Help the people you fly with understand tactical decisionmaking and come up with some strategies to deal with tough enemy teams. Open your mind and soak up as much knowledge as you can, then put it to practice in the game. It won't all come together immediately, you'll still have rough matches, you'll still get stuck in blowouts at times, but you'll improve... and then suddenly, those impossible tactical problems start to have solutions.

 

If you see me online as Despon / Desponn / Beris / Beriss , bug me for advice or a group. I fly on Begeren Colony, Ebon Hawk, Shadowlands, Jedi Covenant, occasionally Bastion, and even sometimes Harbinger. Coming soon to a server near you.

 

Not exactly new, I've done around 800 matches, granted it's a drop in the ocean compared to many in the forums but still.

 

I'm usually in the top 5, even on stock ships.

 

This is day one on Harbringer a few months ago:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=303cql3&s=8#.VB5W7PldWqk

 

 

I appreciate the willingness to help, I think I'll make a pilot on Begeron Colony, Hell I may end up making one in each server at this rate.

 

 

 

 

P.S.

Old bug I still find funny:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ik6t8k&s=8#.VB5Xb_ldWqk

[FBPL]

People just sit there half the match and end up with 15 kills 0 deaths and everyone else who doesn't use a gunship gets more deaths than kills?

 

If a GS has fifteen kills and gone all match without a single death then its shame on the the opposing side for not focusing them. Once you notice a GS is starting to wrack up the kills then you need to let your scouts know so they can kill the GS or at least keep him retreating and unable to have an easy time of it.

 

Effective teamwork trumps everything else in GSF.

[Paetheas]

 

Having better ships and components trumps everything else in GSF. GSF is a mostly gear based game.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Crazy-Wolf]

Fixed that for you.

 

I wanted to explain to you, why this "fixed" statement is not entirely accurate....but then I remembered you. And that Verain already caught you with your pants down, slapping your buns.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=760146&page=3

 

 

As for the topic: I hate Gunships. And it wasn't long ago, when I was so pissed about them, that I made a few statements in a thread somewhere here around the corner that I regret today. The reason I changed my mind is because I started focusing them. Even if I couldn't kill them right away I was able to distract them and forced their attention towards me so they couldn't snipe my team to death. And you can't do it just with the T2 Scout. I harrass gunships with my Blackbolt, my Rycer, my Imperium even with my Quell and my Bloodmark. As long as they have to dance away from me thus being unable to line up shots, I have done my part. And if I am not within the top 5 killers of the match, who cares. We win, they have more deaths than kills, mission accomplished. And I can harrass a GS with a stock Novadive even though I won't kill it with my RFLs.

 

But the main problem is, that most of the inexperienced players keep dancing in the middle of the map, trying to kill the strikes dancing with them. Or they are flying towards a sat node in a straight line with a pressed "s"-key, aiming at the defense turret, not aware that a sniper sits right on top of the node.....BOOM.

 

So I say it again: Focus them Make it your personal goal for the match. Fly around the main enemy meat in a huge circle, hitting the gs from behind. They will guard each other and they will have wingmen who protect them. You will die a lot. But you will also kill alot of 'em. And that satisfying feeling will keep you going. And above that killing a GS is always a contribution for your team.

[SammyGStatus]

Paetheas is delusional and really doesn't understand the PVP mechanics of this. You're now on word probation - don't speak until you have at least 1000 games. At least you'll be an experienced disillusioned individual instead of just disillusioned .

[ALaggyGrunt]

The counter to that is teamwork.

 

Since we're playing SWTOR, I'll just say "tank-and-spank", because that's a pretty good way to do it:

One or two scouts go ahead and get them very distracted. Follow up with your choice of GS and other scouts. If they're really distracted and/or love feedback shield, even strikers are good enough. If/when they get wise, they won't cut it. Bring a combination of Concentrated Fire (mostly for Fortress) and Wingman (vs. DF) for crew abilities.

If you notice all the red triangles on the minimap stop pointing at you, start making runs at the GS.

 

The only real options for dealing with a skilled gunship which is expecting you are T1/2 scouts and your own GS. Strikers don't cut it, because they have to boost in from out of range and have power left over to chase, unless you're talking about the new striker-with-railgun. Strikers tend to lose one-on-one turning matches with GS, because most GS have BLC, which are really good in those, and strikers.... don't.