Thoughts on Sorc Heals changes?

[Evilgox]

I came back about 1 month ago. My main character was a Healer Sorc and when I had him fairly geared I tried some rated Arenas. I got badly flamed for Qing as a Sorc Healer bc apparently the class was useless.

 

I started reading about it and found several threads delineating the main problems.

 

 

Now after several weeks of playing a lot of pvp and going from Battle-master set to fully Brut geared we get this buffs.

 

What are your thoughts on the changes?

 

I'm not entirely convinced. I do like them, the insta heal is super useful and Force Consumption not taking away your hp is very nice.

 

However, the main thing I've found is that in order for the Instant Dark Heal to be useful it must crit. It already has a very high force usage for the low amount of healing. For it to Crit you need to have the Resurgence buff, however, with the Resurgence CD being as it is I often find myself being forced to use Innervate without Force Bending which reduces heavily the amount of stacks of Force Surge. This in turn leads to me being force starved because I often give priority to the Instant Heal than the Crit Innervate.

 

As the usual main focused target it's very helpful to heal yourself instantly for 16k.

[curtkram]

my experience is that the changes are pretty worthless. the dark heal thing is kind of neat but costs too much force to be useful. for the consumption change, i'm sure it helps but force management is more of a problem than health, especially if you're using the stupid dark heal.

 

maybe bioware will tell us about their metrics, and let us know if sorcs are now equal to ops based on their statistics. just kidding, if they wanted sorc heals to be a viable spec, they would have changed things so we could help our team instead of changing things so we could run away and stun ourselves.

[Raansu]

my experience is that the changes are pretty worthless. the dark heal thing is kind of neat but costs too much force to be useful. for the consumption change, i'm sure it helps but force management is more of a problem than health, especially if you're using the stupid dark heal.

 

maybe bioware will tell us about their metrics, and let us know if sorcs are now equal to ops based on their statistics. just kidding, if they wanted sorc heals to be a viable spec, they would have changed things so we could help our team instead of changing things so we could run away and stun ourselves.

 

I think the closer reality is they dont know what to do with OP healers without killing them and they definitely dont want the other healers to reach the level of OP healers as, lets be honest here, OP healers are pretty broken. At the end of the day the current damage output is too high, madness dots are way too strong atm, resolve is completely broken resulting in way too many scenarios of making the choice being bursted during a single stun (remember the good ole days of 1.1.5 when that was literally impossible?) or CC breaking early to avoid the burst and only be at half resolve even though you got spiked twice back to back which should have punished the attackers for not coordinating and instead go "derp cc burst!"

 

That entire scenario shouldn't even exist. No one should have to make a crazy choice like that and then be white barred a few seconds later only to die.

 

/rant about resolve and overall game in general. BW can we go back to 1.1.5 but with 8v8 ranked returned? *sigh* why am I still playing this game

Edited September 11, 2014 by Raansu

[HaoZhao]

my experience is that the changes are pretty worthless. the dark heal thing is kind of neat but costs too much force to be useful. for the consumption change, i'm sure it helps but force management is more of a problem than health, especially if you're using the stupid dark heal. maybe bioware will tell us about their metrics, and let us know if sorcs are now equal to ops based on their statistics. just kidding, if they wanted sorc heals to be a viable spec, they would have changed things so we could help our team instead of changing things so we could run away and stun ourselves.

 

Dark heal can be useful if you really need a fast heal and you have a left over charge of recklessness.

 

With that said, it's still a class that relies on heals that can only be used when standing still, and can be interrupted. It's not viable for ranked and never will be. For corruption/lightning to be viable in ranked, you'd basically have to turn the sorcerer into a completely different class which isn't going to happen.

 

At least sorcerers can respec to madness. What do mercenaries have? Nothing.

[Raansu]

Dark heal can be useful if you really need a fast heal and you have a left over charge of recklessness.

 

With that said, it's still a class that relies on heals that can only be used when standing still, and can be interrupted. It's not viable for ranked and never will be. For corruption/lightning to be viable in ranked, you'd basically have to turn the sorcerer into a completely different class which isn't going to happen.

 

At least sorcerers can respec to madness. What do mercenaries have? Nothing.

 

A team on my server was running pyro merc the other night and domination with it.

[Ottoattack]

Are they better? Oh yea. Are they within a mile distance from ops? Hell no.

 

As other posters said, ops healers are probably the most broken spec in TOR's history. Sorc output and survivability IMO is where all healers should be. Good enough to fend of one dps attacker without guard, but output gets impacted under focus fire and coordinated CC.

[Maegi]

I was running pyro merc in ranked last night and went 4/5. only got globalled once, but that was due to me being stupid and letting an AP PT pull me to him where he and a deception sin were waiting to feed me candy laced with drugs.

[KingDeathII]

Sorc healers without a tank are complete **** because they are a turret healer and get eaten instantly. Basically, you cant play solo ranked with a Sorc Healer. Grouped Ranked is better because you can have your own tank who can be amazing at guarding you so it works decently. I think BW is moving in the right direction to make Sorc healers more mobile with the changes but they are not mobile enough for solo ranked.

[Raansu]

Sorc healers without a tank are complete **** because they are a turret healer and get eaten instantly. Basically, you cant play solo ranked with a Sorc Healer. Grouped Ranked is better because you can have your own tank who can be amazing at guarding you so it works decently. I think BW is moving in the right direction to make Sorc healers more mobile with the changes but they are not mobile enough for solo ranked.

 

Nor should they be. This game should never be balanced around solo ranked. Hell solo ranked shouldn't even exist. My server I've faced nothing but queue syncers every single match from a certain guild since Tuesday. Its incredibly pointless.

[Adovir]

Stop comparing other healers to OP healing, like raansu said they're in a weird place where you can't tone it down with out shafting it. Also saying OP healing has always been a broken spec and the best healers, remember pre 1.2 when Ops were not meta for groups and it was mercs, then sorcs now it's Ops

[Raansu]

Stop comparing other healers to OP healing, like raansu said they're in a weird place where you can't tone it down with out shafting it. Also saying OP healing has always been a broken spec and the best healers, remember pre 1.2 when Ops were not meta for groups and it was mercs, then sorcs now it's Ops

 

They were actually pretty decent pre 1.2, just no one played them and they had a stigma of being bad and people didn't pick them up to try em till after the major nerf to merc/sorc. Same with marauders. They were considered terrible at launch up until around 1.1 when better players saw what they could do and other players started to notice them.

[Adovir]

They were actually pretty decent pre 1.2, just no one played them and they had a stigma of being bad and people didn't pick them up to try em till after the major nerf to merc/sorc. Same with marauders. They were considered terrible at launch up until around 1.1 when better players saw what they could do and other players started to notice them.

 

The point being they weren't always the spec to have because the others were better, they weren't he meta and they weren't the broken spec to play like some suggest. The past is very, very easily forgotten to most

[CaptainApop]

They were actually pretty decent pre 1.2, just no one played them and they had a stigma of being bad and people didn't pick them up to try em till after the major nerf to merc/sorc. Same with marauders. They were considered terrible at launch up until around 1.1 when better players saw what they could do and other players started to notice them.

 

Pre 1.2 you stunned an operative and he lost all his TA's and RN was about on par with licking wounds to heal them unless you had two operatives HoT'ing.

 

Add to that TA munching if your random proc went off during a cast.

 

How about vanish being worthless because you couldn't heal for the next 10s regardless of whether you stayed in stealth?

I won't go into old kolto infusion because it would be ironic in a thread where people are complaining about dark heal.

 

Operatives weren't unpowerful pre 1.2 they were terribly designed from a foundational level

Edited September 11, 2014 by CaptainApop

[JediMasterSLC]

marauders were considered terrible at launch up until around 1.1 when better players saw what they could do and other players started to notice them.

 

It was really after 1.2 with these patch notes:

"Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.

Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.

Force Leap now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.

Sentinel

Due to changes in the Sentinel skill trees, Sentinels have had their skill points refunded.

Crippling Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.

Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.

Pacify no longer has a Focus cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.

Transcendence now affects all Operation Group members."

Edited September 11, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[JouerTue]

i gave myself the rule to use the instant just for emergency( teammate on the line in huttball, tank covering me defending the node outnumbered) and while kiting..same for pve..only with innervate/healing trance and rejuvenate/resurgence on cd..honestly i had the impression to suffer force managment more..but also to be alive more

[PhatMcMuffins]

As far as 4s go, Operatives are exactly where they should be. They are difficult to kill and shut down and they fill their roll. They are still susceptible to both hardswitches and well-played pressure comps.

 

Bottom line: Merc and Sorc heals are lacking, operatives are not OP.

 

As far as the sorc changes go: Force management is no longer an issue if you consume early. It's easy to use a stack or two whenever just to stay high in force. The lacklusterness of revivification in arenas also pushes you towards consuming more often. Sorcs have slid into a solid #2 slot as far as heals go. Both sorc and merc need revamps to be on the operative level (where they should be, not the other way around)

Edited September 11, 2014 by PhatMcMuffins

[Glower]

Thoughts on Sorc Heals changes?

 

Awesome! Now buff merc healers...

[MsMalice]

I like the changes, I feel they were much needed especially the changes to the PvP set bonus. I've played both specs and find sages are slightly better than OP healers in WZs but OP are still the #1 choice when it comes to arenas thanks to their better survivability. Edited September 12, 2014 by MsMalice

[Monterone]

The changes are decent, but they come short of fixing the problem, I'm afraid.

 

It is a nice boost in regs but it does very little for survivability in ranked or even in reg arenas, against well coordinated teams. The 20% armor boost is an extra couple of percent damage reduction -- in the long run I'm sure it will add up, but it is immediately not very noticeable.

 

The Benevolence proc is clunky, and I find myself wasting too much time watching my proc bar when I should be watching the battlefield... this is not a good thing. It also being on a 60% chance to proc is not great. One can go for 2-3 heals and not get a proc and then the only way to proc it would be Deliverance, which I find myself casting once or twice per warzone due to its extremely long cast time and interruptibility. This means that 10s window to proc one is gone and you hope it procs it next time your heals are up.

 

Not to mention the proc is GREEN, like all the other procs from the Seer tree and I find myself holding my eyes on the proc bar for a moment too long trying to distinguish which one is the proc I need, when once again I can't afford to stare at my procs for that long. My fix would be to make it a 100% proc rate. If it is to remain at 60% proc chance it needs to be able to refresh and overwrite itself and add a few seconds to the length of the proc, say 12-15s., 10s turns out is too short for it and I often miss the proc in the middle of the battle. I'm sure this will get better as we get used to it, but in a 10s window you can cast 6 abilities if they all use a single GCD - more likely 3-4 abilities considering the cast times. I am MUCH more likely to use that time to refresh 7-8k force armors, than to cast a 66 force instant proc that will heal for half that, or perhaps the same as one force armor IF it crits, and at double the force cost at that. IF the Benevolence proc made it also cast off GCD, it may fit into the rotation more easily. At the moment it's too costly for the benefit it provides.

 

Noble Sacrifice being off GCD and not using health is a great change! This definitely makes the class more fun to play, and not having to take your own health just to keep healing others or yourself is how it always should have been. Well, that's how it used to be actually before a set of poor changes was implemented a while ago. Good to have no health cost back.

 

Although, the off GCD thing for NS still feels like it's not working the way it should. It still consumes a GCD at times and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong. It seems to be there is no GCD only when sacrifice is cast first and then another ability. So if I cast NS in the healer tree with the required stacks, and then immediately hit Project, the damage ability would hit right away and there would be no GCD from NS. However, it seems if I use Project first, then NS cannot be used until the GCD from Project is finished -- meaning NS seems to be not completely off of GCD, it all depends on the order the abilities are cast. I may be wrong but this is what I've noticed a few times.

 

The hindered effect, I just don't know yet. No one has mentioned it so far or complained about it. I don't think that most people even notice being Hindered since it only lasts 4s and it's not very easy to recognize it. I'm sure there's been assassins and leapers whom I've knocked back and they were confused for a split second -- 'oh, where's my speed? oh, there it is one second later'. It is not very helpful in arenas as the actual knockback distance is very minor, so the distance can be bridged simply by walking back, in less time than the hindered effect lasts. I'm sure there will be clutch moments in Hutball and such when you can prevent leapers from scoring or preventing a score, but I'm not impressed with it for arenas.

 

And the last change, Recklessness resetting Mental Alacrity... ummmm, I don't know... the rest of this talent, Amnesty, is sooo useless, I may not pick this talent up at all in the near future. Otherwise, I'm finding myself using Recklessness when I don't need it, as I'm not in a situation where I can get off big heals that would benefit from Recklessness, but I use it to reset Alacrity since I'm under pressure and then waste Recklessness on Resurgence or some crap like that. These should not be tied together, period. Sage healers do need more un-interruptibility, but it should be done passively through incoming damage. You get hit, your MA cooldown goes down by a few seconds - akin to the scoundrel's Dodge reduction proc. Amnesty, as a talent, should be completely re-written... no one uses Barrier to get rid of force regen degradation effect, and if you're doing things right whether you're in PvP or PvE, you're not gonna see any degeneration anyway if you use the stacks. Useless talent.

 

Overall some decent changes, but they won't do much to shift the balance of power as far as heals go, I feel. You will see more sage/sorc healers overall for a little while, but they'll all go to other specs or other toons soon as the sage will still be in 3rd spot for ranked and arena healing.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Monterone

[Raansu]

It was really after 1.2 with these patch notes:

"Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.

Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.

Force Leap now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.

Sentinel

Due to changes in the Sentinel skill trees, Sentinels have had their skill points refunded.

Crippling Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.

Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.

Pacify no longer has a Focus cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.

Transcendence now affects all Operation Group members."

 

Ah man I forgot all that stuff cost focus. Those were the days lol. The force camo change was a nerf though. Used to be 100% in annihilation tree. Force camo through fire in huttball....man those were the days lol.

[JediMasterSLC]

Ah man I forgot all that stuff cost focus. Those were the days lol. The force camo change was a nerf though. Used to be 100% in annihilation tree. Force camo through fire in huttball....man those were the days lol.

 

I know man, good times.

[Chrisweaver]

Just a few thoughts on sorc heals,

 

 

The cast time for dark infusion(DI) needs to either be lowered, or at the very least switch resurgence to increase the crit of DI by 60% and reduce the healing cost of dark heal by 30%.

DI cast time is way to long to only heal for 5k, however when it crits it can heal for 9-10k and it become worth it. I understand the point of DI is for it to be a long longer cast time in order to make up for its force cost, amt however the force cost does not make up for the cast time, especially with energy no longer being a problem for sorcs.ATM DI could not even be in a rotation in 4s, as dark heal can be used to instantly crit for 6k and each rich of innervate heals for about 3.3k.

 

The second thing I have issues with is whether or not my instant dark heal procs. It is 65% chance however if you are unlucky you can get a resurgence+innervate without proc'ing the instant dark heal. This is only a problem I have with rng, some people like it others don't care. There are definitely times where it will proc very consistently and in times like those the healing goes on par with OPs IMO. I don't have a fix for this and it is not to big of a priority however.

 

Overall I think the Devs have done a lot to help sorcs out. I think a lower cast time of 1.9sec for DI would go a long way into making them a viable 4s healer. In solo queue I believe the OP and Sorc are about even and the outcome has more to do with your comp and skill.

 

Edit:

One thing I forgot. The proc for instant dark heal should be 2-4 seconds longer. There are quite a few time when I am cc'ed or saving the proc for the right moment and it will expire requiring me to cast a couple other heals just to get the proc again.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Chrisweaver

[BraveSirRobin]

Man I miss the double dip in sorc healing...

[Monterone]

Man I miss the double dip in sorc healing...

 

I miss the original design of 1.5s procced DI/Deliverance.

 

When you think of Georg Zoeller and the original devs brainstorming this, do you think they went -- hey, let's make a super squishy class, give it lower mobility and/or survivability than other healers, and then let's give them longest casts in the game?

 

I seriously doubt it. The whole design was that the healer tree gets lower casts, while dps still has to use longer casts. 1.5s Dark Infusion is essential for this tree, and once that was nerfed, the entire vision for the healing tree was nixed. The double dip bug should have been fixed, and the design left as is.

 

Ever since then, everything they do is trying to fill that gap that was created by removing the main heal from the rotation, for the most part.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Monterone

[BraveSirRobin]

I miss the original design of 1.5s procced DI/Deliverance.

 

When you think of Georg Zoeller and the original devs brainstorming this, do you think they went -- hey, let's make a super squishy class, give it lower mobility and/or survivability than other healers, and then let's give them longest casts in the game?

 

I seriously doubt it. The whole design was that the healer tree gets lower casts, while dps still has to use longer casts. 1.5s Dark Infusion is essential for this tree, and once that was nerfed, the entire vision for the healing tree was nixed. The double dip bug should have been fixed, and the design left as is.

 

Ever since then, everything they do is trying to fill that gap that was created by removing the main heal from the rotation, for the most part.

 

Oh I agree that the double dip should have been hot fixed and left everything else the same. That would have kept sorc healing viable and they wouldn't have had to do the bubble blind fiasco.