The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[azudelphi]

No, actually the suggestion in the list would list whole numbers as you indicated. I see what you were saying, in other words have all currency line up by the decimal point...would they need to display 00 for non fractional currency as a result?

 

If you list as just whole numbers, then right justification implies decimal alignment.

 

If you can still list as non-integers, then right justification would need to add .00 to integers for alignment purposes.

 

And that's fine. Uniformity doesn't change the nature of the GTN. I imagine decimal formats and alignment are among the easier design elements to change.

[Vandicus]

I disagree. Most folks involved in the discussion refused to discuss the merits of the improvements and instead chose to argue back and forth, making the same points over and over again. There are folks that have been trying to speak to the merits of the suggestions since the topic began.

 

The road to sane discussion was derailed by inane chatter, not paved by it.

 

If it were not hotly debated I don't think we would've drawn Bioware's notice.

 

I would like to think that some people also picked up ideas they hadn't been exposed to before in the discussion(namely that positions of individual vs collective responsibility all exist on a spectrum, which advanced students of political philosophy are familiar with but the average layman is not; rarely is the common understandings of social and economic issues comprehensive).

 

I am rather beginning to risk derailing the discussion with this commentary however.

[LordArtemis]

If you list as just whole numbers, then right justification implies decimal alignment.

 

If you can still list as non-integers, then right justification would need to add .00 to integers for alignment purposes.

 

And that's fine. Uniformity doesn't change the nature of the GTN. I imagine decimal formats and alignment are among the easier design elements to change.

 

Well, I was thinking that a toggle to remove or display fractional currency, combined with a right justify, would clean up the price display quite a bit.

 

If you had a toggle that would allow you turn off fractional currency display (.00) and have the prices right justified everything would line up properly.

[LordArtemis]

If it were not hotly debated I don't think we would've drawn Bioware's notice.

 

Thats a fair point. I have to concede that.

[azudelphi]

Well, I was thinking that a toggle to remove or display fractional currency, combined with a right justify, would clean up the price display quite a bit.

 

If you had a toggle that would allow you turn off fractional currency display (.00) and have the prices right justified everything would line up properly.

 

Basically, with right justify set as the default alignment you would have 3 scenarios for price per unit:

No decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314.00

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency disabled:

314

314

 

I can give my support to having these options available for the GTN.

Edited November 11, 2014 by azudelphi

[LyraineAlei]

Another example of market inefficiency created by the current system.

 

You pay higher than average costs for mats, you charge consumers more to compensate for your higher cost of production and move less volume because of it.

 

Game should really allow the breaking up of lots and employ matching, this'd increase trade volume and dramatically reduce time spent for evaluating prices.

 

Wha? That wasn't what I was saying.

 

Let me sum up myself:

 

• I use the filter for max price whenever I am materials shopping.
  
• I set it to the max price I am willing to pay
  
• Unless the max price I set filters out every single listing for the item I am looking for.
  
• And the max price filter keeps me from seeing things set for a price I do not want to pay.
  

Thanks, appreciate that. Do you dislike the idea of having the option to list items by "price per unit" as an option?

 

I don't object to the sorting option, but I don't personally buy materials on the GTN. I'm primarily a CM armor buyer, and they don't stack. So having everything always auto-sorted by unit price could get tedious.

 

Not actually objecting, but it reads to me that more people are just seeing per-unit and not paying attention to the total price, or how many units (ex. They see Mat A for 500 credits a unit, buy a stack of 99, pay 49500).

 

Which would to more whining/complaining/"IT'S A SCAM" threads, and this goes on and on...

[Vandicus]

Wha? That wasn't what I was saying.

 

Let me sum up myself:

 

• I use the filter for max price whenever I am materials shopping.
  
• I set it to the max price I am willing to pay
  
• Unless the max price I set filters out every single listing for the item I am looking for.
  
• And the max price filter keeps me from seeing things set for a price I do not want to pay.
  

 

 

 

And you pay higher than average price per unit as a result. Filtering out higher volume lots with lower price per unit raises your costs.

 

Textbook example of market inefficiency.

 

The fact that lots can't be broken up in game can also(but more rarely) lead to situations like this.

 

*EDIT

 

Although since you don't use the GTN for crafting purposes this isn't applicable to you. However, the way in which you protect yourself is inefficient when employed to buying large quantities.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Vandicus

[LyraineAlei]

And you pay higher than average price per unit as a result. Filtering out higher volume lots with lower price per unit raises your costs.

 

Textbook example of market inefficiency.

 

The fact that lots can't be broken up in game can also(but more rarely) lead to situations like this.

 

It isn't inefficiency, it is me saying "I want X, but I won't pay anymore than Y to get it."

 

Do I pay more per unit? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the item. Especially since I can just hop onto an alt, tell his/her comps to go materials hunting for me, and then dump it all onto Legacy Storage.

[_NovaBlast_]

This also happens for any item including the Mass Manipulators Generators and do you know what I do? I double check to be sure it is listing the lowest price first. I don't buy the items until I sort the unit price to the lowest price first.

 

I also have my pop up still on (even after 3 years) to have an extra precaution when I am purchasing items on the GTN.

 

Some changes would be nicer and make it easier but until they do I will continue being careful in what I purchase.

 

+! to this . Unfortunately the people living on a world they still believe is flat double checking and being more careful is a "blasphemous" suggestion is considered heresy.

 

They rather blame someone else and have a "fix" put in than take such a suggestion.

 

Unfortunately we have people like you who have an ideological drive against efficiency and the employment of fail-safes.

 

Only doomsday preppers and anarchists take individual responsibility in its entirety. Everyone else(most likely including you), compromises.

 

In a world where individual responsibility is absolute, people wouldn't rely on a national government to safeguard them from invasion or to enforce contracts.

 

In making an agreement with another individual, per individual responsibility, you bear the risk of them not upholding their word(after all you have the option of working with anyone else).

 

Per collective responsibility, contracts are enforced by government authority.

 

So now i'm either a doomsday prepper or anarchist Now ...just add that to the list of everything else i been called on here .

 

What is funny is i am being called that for expecting people to use common sense and pay attention to what they are doing ...interesting.

 

My issue really however isn't with qol improvements in general i don't consider this one . for the following reasons.

 

If you use the tools available prop[erly simply doesnt matter what someone sell anything for in any format on gtn. Furthermore nothing anyone ever sells at whatever nefarious price they want to sell it at on the gtn will affect you becase you will see it from a mile away .

 

My issue is with the people that blame other for what is entirely their fault and want these changes becase they refused admit that they are the only ones at fault and accept the responsibility .

Edited November 11, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[MillionsKNives]

So now i'm either a doomsday prepper or anarchist Now ...just add that to the list of everything else i been called on here .

 

Reading comprehension isn't really your strong suit is it?

[Vandicus]

It isn't inefficiency, it is me saying "I want X, but I won't pay anymore than Y to get it."

 

Do I pay more per unit? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the item. Especially since I can just hop onto an alt, tell his/her comps to go materials hunting for me, and then dump it all onto Legacy Storage.

 

People generally only care about price per unit when it comes to producing crafting goods.

 

Filtering out higher volume lots can never lower your average price paid, at best it can be equally as efficient as the most efficient lot(which is what everyone is searching for). It can increase your costs but never lower them(outside of market inefficiency).

 

You can beat GTN prices on mats with companions because there's a time premium on GTN listings.

[anonnn]

This thread is becoming quite dead.

 

The catch-all for preventing mistaken purchases is the Purchase Confirmation popup, so the only truly useful discussion is how to improve that so that it catches the majority of the instances where people are known to have made a mistaken purchase.

 

The Purchase Confirmation pops up right before a purchase is finalized, because THAT's when it's most critical to provide the buyer with the opportunity to catch their mistake. It's the only feature in the GTN that's specifically designed for buyer protection . . . so it'd be useful if the discussion centered around that.

 

Tools are only a peripheral element, no matter what tools are provided, it can still be the case that particular buyers won't be using those tools, and you don't want to neglect to protect a buyer just because they happened to not use the tools on that particular day.

 

It's BUYER PROTECTION. Pay attention to what the buyers are doing when they make their mistakes and the solution is easily derived from those circumstances.

[Brewski]

If you use the tools available prop[erly simply doesnt matter what someone sell anything for in any format on gtn. Furthermore nothing anyone ever sells at whatever nefarious price they want to sell it at on the gtn will affect you becase you will see it from a mile away .

Almost every quality of life improvement ever done in this game fits your definition as not being needed, because in every case there are or were already tools available to accomplish the same thing without any change.

 

• Group Finder? Unnecessary because I have fleet chat.
  
• PvP vendors and terminals in warzones? Unnecessary, because they are already on the fleet.
  
• Price per unit listing on the GTN? Unnecessary because I have both the quantity and total price available to me.
  
• Ability to show multiple icons on the world map? Unnecessary, since I can easily switch between each and see them all.
  

 

The list goes on and on.

 

The definition of a quality of life improvement is a change that is not actually needed, but makes the game a little nicer.

[LyraineAlei]

People generally only care about price per unit when it comes to producing crafting goods.

 

Filtering out higher volume lots can never lower your average price paid, at best it can be equally as efficient as the most efficient lot(which is what everyone is searching for). It can increase your costs but never lower them(outside of market inefficiency).

 

You can beat GTN prices on mats with companions because there's a time premium on GTN listings.

 

Yes, but by putting in a max price, I don't mistakenly lose tons of credits. I fully admit more often than not that 100000 is often too low for the numbers I would need, but I was using it as my baseline example.

 

I know what people use the per-unit for.

 

Am I willing to pay more per unit if it remains in my budget? Yes, actually. I am.

[Brewski]

My issue is with the people that blame other for what is entirely their fault and want these changes becase they refused admit that they are the only ones at fault and accept the responsibility .

Your actual issue seems to be an inability to let go of a counter-argument to an argument no one is making anymore, and that many of us never made.

 

No one is suggesting people are not responsible for their own purchases. The conversation has moved on, and is now about general, easy to implement, Quality of Life improvements that could be made to the GTN UI to make our live a little better while at the same time making this kind of misunderstanding less frequent.

[Vandicus]

Yes, but by putting in a max price, I don't mistakenly lose tons of credits. I fully admit more often than not that 100000 is often too low for the numbers I would need, but I was using it as my baseline example.

 

I know what people use the per-unit for.

 

Am I willing to pay more per unit if it remains in my budget? Yes, actually. I am.

 

Which is an extra cost attached to the system. The system is inefficient because there is additional risk to searching for the cheapest price per unit.

 

This cost gets passed on to the consumer to some degree, and is unavoidably experienced by the producer to some degree.

 

The less risk(or alternatively cost) involved in comparing competing prices the more efficient a market becomes.

 

*EDIT

 

There's also an unquantifiable time cost attached to needing to use additional search parameters.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Vandicus

[LyraineAlei]

This thread is becoming quite dead.

 

The catch-all for preventing mistaken purchases is the Purchase Confirmation popup, so the only truly useful discussion is how to improve that so that it catches the majority of the instances where people are known to have made a mistaken purchase.

 

The Purchase Confirmation pops up right before a purchase is finalized, because THAT's when it's most critical to provide the buyer with the opportunity to catch their mistake. It's the only feature in the GTN that's specifically designed for buyer protection . . . so it'd be useful if the discussion centered around that.

 

Tools are only a peripheral element, no matter what tools are provided, it can still be the case that particular buyers won't be using those tools, and you don't want to neglect to protect a buyer just because they happened to not use the tools on that particular day.

 

It's BUYER PROTECTION. Pay attention to what the buyers are doing when they make their mistakes and the solution is easily derived from those circumstances.

 

The pop up is also a tool. It can be turned off.

 

Sort by Total Price is not buyer protection?

Sort by Unit Price is not buyer protection?

Filter Min/Max Price is not buyer protection?

Just the Popup is buyer protection?

Edited November 11, 2014 by LyraineAlei

[_NovaBlast_]

Almost every quality of life improvement ever done in this game fits your definition as not being needed, because in every case there are or were already tools available to accomplish the same thing without any change.

 

• Group Finder? Unnecessary because I have fleet chat.
  
• PvP vendors and terminals in warzones? Unnecessary, because they are already on the fleet.
  
• Price per unit listing on the GTN? Unnecessary because I have both the quantity and total price available to me.
  
• Ability to show multiple icons on the world map? Unnecessary, since I can easily switch between each and see them all.
  

 

The list goes on and on.

 

The definition of a quality of life improvement is a change that is not actually needed, but makes the game a little nicer.

 

Well if that is the case why don't they just give me an perfectly optimized Ai setting that chooses its own targets fights like a nm level end boss or . Even just an auto fire one button for offensive ability and one button for defensive abilities that recognize cool downs .

 

So that i don't have to all my skills and don't have to put any effort into fighting would make the game alot nice for me then when i enter a fight i don't have to pay attention to what i'm doing and can just read the forum or go for a snack till the fights overr .

 

That would be an awesome QOL improvement and would make the game a lot nicer to .

 

think about it If everything already programmed into an ai or one or two buttons all people have to do is hit a button and all the bad player complaints would go away so it would help the community to .

Edited November 11, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[LyraineAlei]

Which is an extra cost attached to the system. The system is inefficient because there is additional risk to searching for the cheapest price per unit.

 

This cost gets passed on to the consumer to some degree, and is unavoidably experienced by the producer to some degree.

 

The less risk(or alternatively cost) involved in comparing competing prices the more efficient a market becomes.

 

*EDIT

 

There's also an unquantifiable time cost attached to needing to use additional search parameters.

 

Layman's terms: My using the filter out total prices I don't want to pay is going to cost me more per-unit and adds time to my searching.

 

Time spent searching: GTN bargain hunting already takes a great deal of time IMO.

 

Me losing out on better per-unit prices: I don't care it I get 99 of an item in one purchase for cheap, I am not going to pay that total price!

[Brewski]

well if that is the case why don't they just give me an perfectly optimized Ai setting or . Even just an auto fire one button for offensive ability and one button for defensive abilities that recognize cool downs .

 

So that i don't have to all my skills and don't have to put any effort into fighting would make the game alot nice for me then when i enter a fight i don't have to pay attention to what i'm doing and can just read the forum or go for a snack till the fights overr .

 

That would be an awesome QOL improvement and would make the game a lot nicer to .

 

think about it If everything already programmed into an ai or one or two buttons all people have to do is hit a button and all the bad player complaints would go away so it would help the community to .

 

You are comparing a default sort and price formatting change to a scripted macro to fire multiple skills?

 

One is a visual display cleared up to make the game look nicer and prices easier to read. Literally it's a format command and sort command.

 

The other is a play altering change that affects how combat operates.

 

You really can't see the difference? If that is the case, you are obviously blinded by your inability to let the previous argument (that no one is making anymore) go. You keep coming back to it despite the fact that you are the only one bringing it up.

 

Get over it. Let it go like we all have. It will be better for your blood pressure.

[_NovaBlast_]

You are comparing a default sort and price formatting change to a scripted macro to fire multiple skills?

 

One is a visual display cleared up to make the game look nicer and prices easier to read. Literally it's a format command and sort command.

 

The other is a play altering change that affects how combat operates.

 

You really can't see the difference? If that is the case, you are obviously blinded by your inability to let the previous argument (that no one is making anymore) go. You keep coming back to it despite the fact that you are the only one bringing it up.

 

Get over it. Let it go like we all have. It will be better for your blood pressure.

 

Its still a valid QOL adjustment according to your definition . besides you missed my entire point i even highlighted for you . look in the mirror when you say that .

Edited November 11, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[LordArtemis]

Basically, with right justify set as the default alignment you would have 3 scenarios for price per unit:

No decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314.00

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency disabled:

314

314

 

I can give my support to having these options available for the GTN.

 

I think it would be a nice change. Certainly would make it easier to read prices clearly.

[wainot-keel]

Basically, with right justify set as the default alignment you would have 3 scenarios for price per unit:

No decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency enabled:

314.00

314.25

 

With decimal uniformity and fractional currency disabled:

314

314

 

I can give my support to having these options available for the GTN.

 

The 2nd or 3rd would make the most sense. The point of right aligning and formatting numbers in a table or grid is they are easily readable and comparable between them. Just a quick glance and everything is clear.

Edited November 11, 2014 by wainot-keel

[robertthebard]

Well if that is the case why don't they just give me an perfectly optimized Ai setting that chooses its own targets fights like a nm level end boss or . Even just an auto fire one button for offensive ability and one button for defensive abilities that recognize cool downs .

 

So that i don't have to all my skills and don't have to put any effort into fighting would make the game alot nice for me then when i enter a fight i don't have to pay attention to what i'm doing and can just read the forum or go for a snack till the fights overr .

 

That would be an awesome QOL improvement and would make the game a lot nicer to .

 

think about it If everything already programmed into an ai or one or two buttons all people have to do is hit a button and all the bad player complaints would go away so it would help the community to .

 

Really? This is what you're going to run with now?

[Brewski]

Its still a valid QOL adjustment according to your definition . besides you missed my entire point i even highlighted for you . look in the mirror when you say that .

 

No it's not, which is obvious to anyone willing to see reason.

 

Congratulations, you've actually stunned me into silence with this argument. As there is obviously no further point to continuing my personal debate with you, I'll just drop it there.

 

You can even get the last word in if you want. Go ahead. I won't bother quoting or replying again.