Ops and the Holy Trinity

[MillionsKNives]

I'm not saying it's a bad system or that there's anything wrong with using it. Modern game developers being bad is a totally unrelated issue that affects all genres. The trinity system works because of the depth of mechanics it allows fights to implement, as MillionsKNives mentioned. However, there are single-player games (ie. games where a trinity system is impossible) with various fun and difficult mechanics in their boss fights (Devil May Cry series being the first that pops in mind), that involve no healing or tanking at all. Expanding that into a multiplayer game could be the first step in an MMO that successfully strays from the trinity system. Like I said, again, it would just take some creativity.

 

Part of why that works locally in single player is that in a single player you take all three roles. You are the tank, the healer (if self-healing exists), and the DPS. The boss is always on you and it's up to you to resolve the mechanics properly, while doing the necessary damage, and keeping yourself alive. When you put that in a group setting you pretty much get what we have with the tactical flashpoints. The mechanics would have to allow for the fact that anyone could end up being the tank and execute mechanics, and that whatever self-healing or group healing is available can keep them alive.

 

For that I think you want to look for more action oriented games where the concentration ends up being on cooperatively fighting hordes of enemies, or teaming up on a boss and dodging his telegraphs.

[Khevar]

I'll never understand it, because neither pen & paper RPGs nor "classic" offline RPGs had Trinity ...

Most PnP groups I was a part of had some version of the trinity, so long as the rpg in question was combat focused.

 

We usually brought a Cleric (or equivalent) along for the ability to heal. A wizard had some incredibly powerful spells, but cloth armor and low hp made him pretty squishy. Etc. etc.

 

The idea being that specialization is more interesting than generalization. I play all three roles (different alts) in TOR, depending on my mood. For me, it helps keep the game more interesting.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Khevar

[Kryand]

Part of why that works locally in single player is that in a single player you take all three roles. You are the tank, the healer (if self-healing exists), and the DPS. The boss is always on you and it's up to you to resolve the mechanics properly, while doing the necessary damage, and keeping yourself alive. When you put that in a group setting you pretty much get what we have with the tactical flashpoints. The mechanics would have to allow for the fact that anyone could end up being the tank and execute mechanics, and that whatever self-healing or group healing is available can keep them alive.

 

For that I think you want to look for more action oriented games where the concentration ends up being on cooperatively fighting hordes of enemies, or teaming up on a boss and dodging his telegraphs.

 

Tacticals aren't a good example, because they are just like Champions Online, which as I mentioned before, doesn't force the trinity system but is still designed with it in mind. As for what you said first, if you start with a single-player game where the boss fight is just a matter of getting his health to zero before yours, then a trinity system is a logical split like you described. In DMC, you are never supposed to take damage in the first place, which is why I mentioned it.

 

We can find examples of sorta-non-trinity encounters in SWTOR already. Colonel Vorgath's minefield being the most obvious one. The only reason that fight has any reliance on trinity is because you're already going into it with a trinity-based team. With minor changes, they could easily have made it doable with 8 random classes and still have the exact same mechanics execution (which it actually is now at this point). The same could be said of the Heavy Fabricator in KP, Operator IX, and even Operations Chief and Calphayus could be working into non-trinity-based encounters with some changes.

 

Of course, I already know that the counter-argument is going to be that those are some of the most painful fights in the entire game to pug. But that's more the fault of the players not being about to adapt to something different than it is a problem with the encounter design.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Kryand

[Raansu]

Sounds to me like you're not very creative.

 

PS. Healing via items in DMC is only to give you leeway when you screw up mechanics. Playing well, you don't need to use any items.

 

Its not a matter of "creativity" its a matter of you wanting an MMO to be a single player game.

 

We can find examples of sorta-non-trinity encounters in SWTOR already. Colonel Vorgath's minefield being the most obvious one. The only reason that fight has any reliance on trinity is because you're already going into it with a trinity-based team. With minor changes, they could easily have made it doable with 8 random classes and still have the exact same mechanics execution (which it actually is now at this point). The same could be said of the Heavy Fabricator in KP, Operator IX, and even Operations Chief and Calphayus could be working into non-trinity-based encounters with some changes.

 

Of course, I already know that the counter-argument is going to be that those are some of the most painful fights in the entire game to pug. But that's more the fault of the players not being about to adapt to something different than it is a problem with the encounter design.

 

All of those fights require a tank and a healer. The trinity system is fine, and I wish they would stop doing tactical FP's as they are all incredibly boring. If you want to play a single player game then play a single player game. Asking developers to change a genre that hundreds of thousands of people enjoy is just silly. I would literally quit playing if the trinity was outright removed because then the game would be extremely boring.

 

If you want to play mindless content that doesn't have a trinity then go play a dota game, or any diablo type game. Those genres have exactly what you want. What you want doesn't belong in MMO's.

[Volcan]

TBH, I kinda miss the fourth group that was combat support/control. This would be the enchanter/bard classes in EQ1 or controllers in the clickfest that is DCUO. Those classes had abilities that would boost the "power" or "mana" regeneration rate or deliver them back to the group in some quantity. Enchanters could even sap the mental abilities of npcs either lowering their available mana or increasing the cast time. The EQ classes also had a "mesmerize" AE duration stun as well.

 

I would like to keep classes with a greater degree of specialization rather than everyone being kinda good at everything.

 

I love this 'crowd control' type class and would love to see it in game. On the other hand though I dont have much trust in development's ability to balance ops/pvp if such a class was introduced. But I'd love to play this spec.

[Volcan]

Part of why that works locally in single player is that in a single player you take all three roles. You are the tank, the healer (if self-healing exists), and the DPS. The boss is always on you and it's up to you to resolve the mechanics properly, while doing the necessary damage, and keeping yourself alive. When you put that in a group setting you pretty much get what we have with the tactical flashpoints. The mechanics would have to allow for the fact that anyone could end up being the tank and execute mechanics, and that whatever self-healing or group healing is available can keep them alive.

 

For that I think you want to look for more action oriented games where the concentration ends up being on cooperatively fighting hordes of enemies, or teaming up on a boss and dodging his telegraphs.

 

Do you know why Tactical FPs dont require the 'trinity'? Because they are so 'F'n easy it does not matter what you bring. I personally HATE tactical FPs as they are boring and void of any challenge.

[JMagee]

We can find examples of sorta-non-trinity encounters in SWTOR already. Colonel Vorgath's minefield being the most obvious one. The only reason that fight has any reliance on trinity is because you're already going into it with a trinity-based team. With minor changes, they could easily have made it doable with 8 random classes and still have the exact same mechanics execution (which it actually is now at this point). The same could be said of the Heavy Fabricator in KP, Operator IX, and even Operations Chief and Calphayus could be working into non-trinity-based encounters with some changes.

 

The "puzzle bosses" are the easiest to lend themselves to "8 people not a set group" discussion. I'm not going to argue semantics much, but I will still say that all of those fights (in their current form) most certainly require healers, if not tanks as well.

 

As long as there is outgoing damage that cannot be avoided, you need a way to heal, or else it just becomes a race to who kills who first.

 

In principle, I wouldn't mind more fights that rely more on positioning, thinking ahead and avoiding environmental effects, but I can't think of any other raid gameplay type for 8 people where the fight "mechanic" would be anything but "We need to deal damage and avoid taking damage".

 

Be curious to hear if you had any other raid-play types that could be conducive to not being able to replenish HP.

Edited September 8, 2014 by JMagee

[Kryand]

Its not a matter of "creativity" its a matter of you wanting an MMO to be a single player game.

Yeah... you're still not getting it. Oh well. Maybe the rest of the post will help you out...

 

All of those fights require a tank and a healer.

Hence why I said "with minor changes"...

 

Make all of the Probe's attacks able to be interrupted and remove the turrets, and suddenly the minefield requires no tank or healer what-so-ever unless you fail the mechanics.

 

Make the Fabricator able to be interrupted as well, make the exploding droids not explode when you kill them (so the puzzler can deal with them), and suddenly that fight requires no tank or healer either. It becomes about the puzzle and killing the stun droids quickly so they don't stop you from interrupting the boss.

 

The other 3 I mentioned would require more significant changes, as the trinity elements in them are an important part of the challenge, but I hope you get the gist by now. Notice how all of the changes I mentioned still require a full team working together?

 

The trinity system is fine, and I wish they would stop doing tactical FP's as they are all incredibly boring. If you want to play a single player game then play a single player game. Asking developers to change a genre that hundreds of thousands of people enjoy is just silly. I would literally quit playing if the trinity was outright removed because then the game would be extremely boring.

In your opinion. The difference here seems to be that I enjoy all types of games, whereas you cannot enjoy any game that doesn't strictly follow the trinity system.

 

If you want to play mindless content that doesn't have a trinity then go play a dota game, or any diablo type game. Those genres have exactly what you want. What you want doesn't belong in MMO's.

More proof of my last comment. Most people who have actually played a DotA game would assure you that it's not mindless. Your saying so just implies that you refuse to respect anything that doesn't abide by your beloved trinity system.

 

Being closed-minded is okay as long as you admit that that's all it is.

[FlyinSpaghetti]

What I'd like to see is not an 8 man roleless op but an 8 man roleless flashpoint or boss fight but not an 8 man zerg but something where you have to use mechanics and interact with things like buttons at certain points in order to beat the boss.

 

They should use something like heavy fabricator as an inspiration for this, where you have to move him to the right position and solve a puzzle to pour lava on him. Something similar to that would work well for a roleless fight.

[ScarletBlaze]

Do you know why Tactical FPs dont require the 'trinity'? Because they are so 'F'n easy it does not matter what you bring. I personally HATE tactical FPs as they are boring and void of any challenge.

 

Is there any reason you can't actually do the trinity in a tactical and make it more challenging for yourself?

[Khevar]

Is there any reason you can't actually do the trinity in a tactical and make it more challenging for yourself?

Do you mean like running it in lowbie gear and refusing to click on Kolto stations?

 

While that could certainly make it challenging, I'm still going to cross my fingers and hope that HM versions are made for all the remaining SMs come 3.0:

 

Collocoid

RR

Tython

Korriban

Manaan

Rakata Prime

 

I suppose for completeness sake, a HM for KDY -- though I think I'd have a hard time convincing myself to run it.

[Cleet_Xia]

Is there any reason you can't actually do the trinity in a tactical and make it more challenging for yourself?

 

The problem with the tacticals is that if you roll into them with a trinity group they are laughably easy.

 

easy =/= repeatable fun....... easy = fast track to bordom

[Kryand]

Story mode content is supposed to be easy for anyone who's actually decent at the game. The most important difference between the Tacticals and the old low-level FPs is the Tactical queue pops much faster, which is a good thing. If you want more challenging content, wait for the HMs as usual. I expect they will be making HM versions of just about everything in 3.0, as well as adding entirely new ones.

[PlayLoud]

The "Holy Trinity" is a religious term and shouldn't be used here.

 

The "trinity" is what you're talking about and it's been set in stone for some time now. I think there's room for more at the table but with the decreased group size of swtor it's not going to be possible.

 

TBH, I kinda miss the fourth group that was combat support/control. This would be the enchanter/bard classes in EQ1 or controllers in the clickfest that is DCUO. Those classes had abilities that would boost the "power" or "mana" regeneration rate or deliver them back to the group in some quantity. Enchanters could even sap the mental abilities of npcs either lowering their available mana or increasing the cast time. The EQ classes also had a "mesmerize" AE duration stun as well.

 

I would like to keep classes with a greater degree of specialization rather than everyone being kinda good at everything.

 

The biggest problem I had with the Quadrality (adding in CC), was the reliance on them. In EverQuest, you needed a group with a Bard or Enchanter, and there were not many to go around. Ok, I guess that is the same problem as waiting for a tank to queue in SWTOR.

 

I just remember my days on Old Sebilis, where I would do a camp check. All camps taken. I would send a /tell to each group, asking to be put on the waiting list. I could expect a 2 hour wait on average. Then an Enchanter would zone in, and have their choice of camp. No waits.

[Khevar]

The other 3 I mentioned would require more significant changes, as the trinity elements in them are an important part of the challenge, but I hope you get the gist by now. Notice how all of the changes I mentioned still require a full team working together?

Your suggested changes are interesting. But they would only be feasible so long as all the other encounters were changed to be more puzzle-based and not require a trinity either.

 

How would a group do Toth and Zorn without taunts? How would a dps eat Nefra's Double Strike? How would a group survive The Writhing Horror without a healer? For that matter, try the Soa fight transition without a healer. Unless you're absurdly overgeared it's practically impossible.

 

You've specifically picked the "puzzle" encounters as ones that could be converted into a trinity-less approach. The other fights aren't as easy to change.

 

I would hazard a guess and say that making a set of challenging encounters that DIDN'T require the trinity is more difficult for developers than creating a set of challenging encounters that DO require the trinity.

 

Czerka is a good example of this. A group in poor gear can faceroll the Eradicator droid. But a group in good gear can fail miserably if they don't pick up the adds. Note that "picking up the adds" is a mechanic in the SM version of that fight. But a bad group doesn't have to worry about it.

 

The moment you don't require a healer and a tank, you have to reduce the incoming damage and/or provide alternate means of healing. This tends to make fights easier, no?

[Kryand]

Your suggested changes are interesting. But they would only be feasible so long as all the other encounters were changed to be more puzzle-based and not require a trinity either.

 

How would a group do Toth and Zorn without taunts? How would a dps eat Nefra's Double Strike? How would a group survive The Writhing Horror without a healer? For that matter, try the Soa fight transition without a healer. Unless you're absurdly overgeared it's practically impossible.

 

You've specifically picked the "puzzle" encounters as ones that could be converted into a trinity-less approach. The other fights aren't as easy to change.

 

I would hazard a guess and say that making a set of challenging encounters that DIDN'T require the trinity is more difficult for developers than creating a set of challenging encounters that DO require the trinity.

 

Czerka is a good example of this. A group in poor gear can faceroll the Eradicator droid. But a group in good gear can fail miserably if they don't pick up the adds. Note that "picking up the adds" is a mechanic in the SM version of that fight. But a bad group doesn't have to worry about it.

 

The moment you don't require a healer and a tank, you have to reduce the incoming damage and/or provide alternate means of healing. This tends to make fights easier, no?

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that SWTOR be turned into a non-trinity MMO, I was just giving examples of fights that could be non-trinity and still mechanically fun and interesting. Some people think that it's impossible for any MMO encounter to be anything but a boring joke unless it strictly adheres to the trinity system.

[Khevar]

I wasn't trying to suggest that SWTOR be turned into a non-trinity MMO, I was just giving examples of fights that could be non-trinity and still mechanically fun and interesting. Some people think that it's impossible for any MMO encounter to be anything but a boring joke unless it strictly adheres to the trinity system.

Ah, I get what you're saying.

 

For what it's worth (and this is just me), I believe that a really challenging encounter contains interesting and complex mechanics (to keep people on their toes), a limited amount of time (requiring a high damage output), both avoidable damage (to encourage players to pay attention to surroundings) and unavoidable damage (requiring an intelligent management of healing resources).

 

I say this only because the most enjoyable experiences I've had with group content have had exactly that. Granted, my mmo experience is limited -- perhaps there are other non-trinity-based games that have done this well.

 

Out of curiosity, do you know of any examples of other MMOs with group content that did do this well, and didn't require specializations such as tank / damage / heal / support?

[BrintoSFJ]

I don't think anyone who played old school MMOs like Rift or Aion would agree that having a DPS with a skill tree of Healing or Tanking is the same as specializing in it. Maybe this is the healer in me but while SWTOR almost gets tanking right, it does a horrible job for professional healing. A Tank or a Healer should have to manage. Buff this person, heal that person, AoE or individual? Immediate or over time?

 

SWTOR Tanking almost has it right but it's missing something. If I want to tweek my tanking gear, I should be playing between power (to hold agro), shield chance/absorb and overall defense and not have endgame gear with alacrity and accuracy. That's just stupid. It's hard enough to make my top level augments to tune my gear. I would also have a way to sacrifice offensive power for shielding and more powerful taunts than SWTOR has now.

 

Rift and Aion are old school? Aion was released sometimes in 2008 and Rift was released on 2011, they are not old school, nowhere close to them. Old school mmo are meridian 59(1st online game that had the feature of an mmo) and most notable one was Ultima Online, none of them had Tank-DPS-Healer role, nor did they have any class. Dungeons & Dragons rpg were the ones with class system and the 1st game to follow D&D rpg benchmark and be an mmorpg was Everquest or in short known as EQ1. tanking, healing, dpsing EQ1 was harder than any game being published now, even WoW classic game did not have a hard skill rotation system like EQ1.

ANd that portion on Yellow : the answer to it was given a long time ago, it was to make us grind to get optimal stats. you have to grind a bit for those.

[Raansu]

Make all of the Probe's attacks able to be interrupted and remove the turrets, and suddenly the minefield requires no tank or healer what-so-ever unless you fail the mechanics.

 

Make the Fabricator able to be interrupted as well, make the exploding droids not explode when you kill them (so the puzzler can deal with them), and suddenly that fight requires no tank or healer either. It becomes about the puzzle and killing the stun droids quickly so they don't stop you from interrupting the boss.

 

The other 3 I mentioned would require more significant changes, as the trinity elements in them are an important part of the challenge, but I hope you get the gist by now. Notice how all of the changes I mentioned still require a full team working together?

 

So in essence simplify everything to the extreme and make the raids incredibly boring? Cool beans, time for you to leave the MMO genre.

[Kryand]

So in essence simplify everything to the extreme and make the raids incredibly boring? Cool beans, time for you to leave the MMO genre.

 

So on one hand we have pure trinity fights with basic mechanics like nearly every single one I didn't mention, which are easily completed by pug groups of sub-par players. On the other, the fights I did mention, which are more focused on complicated mechanics and less on the trinity system, which most pug groups either refuse to do or fail at repeatedly. And when I suggest making them even more focused on mechanics and less on the basic trinity system, your response is that they have now somehow become even easier than the trinity-only fights? Why do I get the feeling that the hardest content you've completed in SWTOR is SM DP. Maybe I should retire from MMOs if only to avoid getting in forum arguments with baddies.

[Khevar]

And when I suggest making them even more focused on mechanics and less on the basic trinity system.

Perhaps this wasn't your intention, but your suggested changes have the side effect of making those encounters easier. Right now they depend on both mechanics and trinity.

 

Also, in case you missed it, I'd really like to know:

Out of curiosity, do you know of any examples of other MMOs with group content that did do this well, and didn't require specializations such as tank / damage / heal / support?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Khevar

[mokkh]

The biggest problem I had with the Quadrality (adding in CC), was the reliance on them. In EverQuest, you needed a group with a Bard or Enchanter, and there were not many to go around. Ok, I guess that is the same problem as waiting for a tank to queue in SWTOR.

 

I just remember my days on Old Sebilis, where I would do a camp check. All camps taken. I would send a /tell to each group, asking to be put on the waiting list. I could expect a 2 hour wait on average. Then an Enchanter would zone in, and have their choice of camp. No waits.

 

Yeah, there are some bards that I've seen play and it looked like they had 6 hands. Both of those classes were always at a premium and I remember the days of the spawn point waiting lists. I played around with a few enchanter toons but never got them where they needed to be... been an SK since '99 so I know the hardship of not getting a group. I just like the idea for group dynamics.

 

Of course in EQ group size is 6 people so there's room for them, not sure if that could ever translate into something viable for this game.

 

Guess I'm just bein nostalgic, always have a soft spot for the old game.

Edited September 9, 2014 by mokkh

[eartharioch]

What surprised me when I began playing MMOs (SWTOR is my second, my first was DDO), w3as, where the Trinity actually came from ?

 

I'll never understand it, because neither pen & paper RPGs nor "classic" offline RPGs had Trinity ...

 

There was this one game called Dungeons and Dragons...

 

Fighter = Tank

Thief, Mage = DPS

Cleric = Healer

[MillionsKNives]

So on one hand we have pure trinity fights with basic mechanics like nearly every single one I didn't mention, which are easily completed by pug groups of sub-par players. On the other, the fights I did mention, which are more focused on complicated mechanics and less on the trinity system, which most pug groups either refuse to do or fail at repeatedly. And when I suggest making them even more focused on mechanics and less on the basic trinity system, your response is that they have now somehow become even easier than the trinity-only fights? Why do I get the feeling that the hardest content you've completed in SWTOR is SM DP. Maybe I should retire from MMOs if only to avoid getting in forum arguments with baddies.

 

You conveniently ignore the difficult fights which require the trinity and don't just have basic mechanics. And the fights that you do reference that are easy with the trinity would have to become even easier to accommodate the lack of the trinity system. Whether or not a fight is easily PUGd has more to do with the difficulty of the mechanics than it does whether or not it has to do with the trinity. For a long time Draxus and Council were very hard to PUG.

 

And while I know that what you gave were just a couple examples and not exhaustive, both examples you gave are puzzle encounters, where the mechanics are completely non-combat related. I'm not really looking to play an MMO for its puzzle fights.

[Kryand]

Out of curiosity, do you know of any examples of other MMOs with group content that did do this well, and didn't require specializations such as tank / damage / heal / support?

I've played exactly 2 MMOs to end-game, so no. However, any cooperative game could be compared to an MMO encounter, of which there are many that have no semblance of a trinity system. I will say that Champions Online, despite being easy as pie due to poor implementation of a non-trinity system, was still extremely fun. The overall game design more than made up for the lack of any challenge in the end-game content. However, at some point they tried to force in set roles as well as a gear grind/progression (it had neither before), and completely killed the game, so I can't really defend it in its current state.

 

Perhaps this wasn't your intention, but your suggested changes have the side effect of making those encounters easier. Right now they depend on both mechanics and trinity.

You conveniently ignore the difficult fights which require the trinity and don't just have basic mechanics. And the fights that you do reference that are easy with the trinity would have to become even easier to accommodate the lack of the trinity system. Whether or not a fight is easily PUGd has more to do with the difficulty of the mechanics than it does whether or not it has to do with the trinity. For a long time Draxus and Council were very hard to PUG.

No doubt, taking a fight that is mechanically hard and putting a heal check on top of it (which is basically all the trinity system adds to mechanics) will make it technically harder. But the point is that you can have an interesting and fun fight without the trinity system. You can also compensate by the lack of a heal check by adding more to the DPS check, adding in something for those players to do when they would normally be healing, etc. Couple that with the fact that different people find different things difficult, as evidenced by what I already said, and the fights don't necessarily become easier for the group.

 

I healed all through this last round of NiM content and found every fight to be mind-numbingly easy to heal, to the point that I was so bored with it that I convinced my team to put me on DPS. So maybe that's why I'm looking for fights to have more to do than rely on healers to heal people. If they did, then to me, the fights would automatically be more challenging, even if it made the healing a non-issue.

 

And while I know that what you gave were just a couple examples and not exhaustive, both examples you gave are puzzle encounters, where the mechanics are completely non-combat related. I'm not really looking to play an MMO for its puzzle fights.

To each their own. I found most of the puzzle fights to be the most fun when they were current content. If you're playing an MMO specifically for the trinity system, then of course you won't like any fight that doesn't involve the trinity. Given that this is a forum for a trinity MMO, I expect most here to agree with you. Doesn't change the fact that the two games Raansu mentioned as non-trinity MMOs (ESO and GW2) seem to be doing just fine, despite his claims otherwise.