Ops and the Holy Trinity

[EllieAnne]

One huge shift in MMOs in general is moving away from the Holy Trinity where you run pretty much as a healer, tank or DPS. As a lifelong healer I kind of miss the move to doing a couple things OK and away from specializing in one. I get the leveling issue - believe me as a healer I totally understand how solo leveling can suck big time. So now let's discuss SWTOR. You can pick a skill tree but lets be honest, everyone is a DPS with some specializing in it and others having tank or heals as a secondary skill which certainly weighs PvP to DPSers. But then look what happens. Most flashpoints use a 1 tank, 1 heals and 2 DPS model. Ops are almost always 2 tanks, 4 heals and 10 DPS.

 

So the question is, is it a mistake to at least not have the option where someone can specialize in heals or tank. And no, picking a skill tree is not specializing. Healers should have cool buffs specific to them as would tanks. Healers should have a variety of heals, more than just 4 or 5. Tanks likewise can have more option like "Raise Shield" that improves defense at the sacrifice of damage.

[jedip_enguin]

So the question is, is it a mistake to at least not have the option where someone can specialize in heals or tank. And no, picking a skill tree is not specializing. Healers should have cool buffs specific to them as would tanks. Healers should have a variety of heals, more than just 4 or 5. Tanks likewise can have more option like "Raise Shield" that improves defense at the sacrifice of damage.

 

Ummm, this is what skill trees do.

[Xarec]

I think the Holy Trinity still exists in more modern MMOs. Sure, you have the crazy fest like GW2 where Dungeons are just in the ridiculous as far as PvE group mechanics go, or ESO/Wildstar where, perhaps not to the same extent as SWTOR, still has a prevalent Holy Trinity system, whether they'd admit it or not.

 

As for SWTOR, I've always been under the impression that it is totally possible to specialise into healing and tanking is it not? Perhaps there are skills that you wish would be available from other games in the TOR verse but that's another issue entirely. I believe that at the highest standards required at endgame that these specialities are encouraged and optimum even if there are some very good hybrid builds out there that can bring more to a well oiled machine with the best available gear.

 

Please don't think I'm objecting to any remarks you've made in your OP, but I do feel that for those who want to specialise, it's optimum to do so. Variety is good nevertheless.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Xarec

[mokkh]

The "Holy Trinity" is a religious term and shouldn't be used here.

 

The "trinity" is what you're talking about and it's been set in stone for some time now. I think there's room for more at the table but with the decreased group size of swtor it's not going to be possible.

 

TBH, I kinda miss the fourth group that was combat support/control. This would be the enchanter/bard classes in EQ1 or controllers in the clickfest that is DCUO. Those classes had abilities that would boost the "power" or "mana" regeneration rate or deliver them back to the group in some quantity. Enchanters could even sap the mental abilities of npcs either lowering their available mana or increasing the cast time. The EQ classes also had a "mesmerize" AE duration stun as well.

 

I would like to keep classes with a greater degree of specialization rather than everyone being kinda good at everything.

[EllieAnne]

I don't think anyone who played old school MMOs like Rift or Aion would agree that having a DPS with a skill tree of Healing or Tanking is the same as specializing in it. Maybe this is the healer in me but while SWTOR almost gets tanking right, it does a horrible job for professional healing. A Tank or a Healer should have to manage. Buff this person, heal that person, AoE or individual? Immediate or over time?

 

SWTOR Tanking almost has it right but it's missing something. If I want to tweek my tanking gear, I should be playing between power (to hold agro), shield chance/absorb and overall defense and not have endgame gear with alacrity and accuracy. That's just stupid. It's hard enough to make my top level augments to tune my gear. I would also have a way to sacrifice offensive power for shielding and more powerful taunts than SWTOR has now.

[Kantaso]

SWTOR tanking is fine, healing and DPS is not, there are very few skill for DPS that you can use to buff other members of the team and even to tag mobs. The few skills we have many of them cause or have the same effects, we need more variety of skills for DPS, AOE, healing, specially when healing groups.

[Xarec]

I don't think anyone who played old school MMOs like Rift or Aion would agree that having a DPS with a skill tree of Healing or Tanking is the same as specializing in it.

 

Well I played both and hardly consider them old school, but maybe that says more about my age than the relevance of your comparison. Whilst I understand what you're saying and agree to a large extent, wishing for one game to be like another will not make it so. Somewhere along the lines, and it wouldn't have been from my feedback I've provided perosnally, MMO devs have moved away from that depth of specializing and it is a shame. It is possible for a sage to not be a healer or to be one, hence favouring a speciality. As to the degree of specializing available, well that's a different context entirely.

[Adaliaya]

Well, speaking from PvE point of view you have trinity in Ops. There are odd hybrids every now and then but generally you need at least 36 points on your main roles tree to do Ops on that role.

 

Sage: Sage AoE heal is important on Ops, it's handy countering raid wide AoEs. I would never enter Ops without it.

Commando: Top ability perhaps not as essential as Sages but this class has stances that clearly show if toon is a healer or not.

Scoundrel: again only AoE heal of class is from top of the tree.

[jedip_enguin]

A Tank or a Healer should have to manage. Buff this person, heal that person, AoE or individual? Immediate or over time?

 

All stuff we already have to do.

 

I would also have a way to sacrifice offensive power for shielding and more powerful taunts than SWTOR has now.

 

You already do that when you equip mitigation mods/enhancements instead of dps ones when gearing, and taunts in this game are already ridiculously powerful as they do not merely place you at the top of the table but generate significant threat at the same time.

[dbears]

There is plenty of specialization in this game. Be it through the skill trees, stat optimization or stances. If you want to play a specific role mediocre, you may not see it. But if you want to play something well, the specialization pretty much slaps you in the face. Edited September 8, 2014 by dbears

[MillionsKNives]

All stuff we already have to do.

 

 

 

You already do that when you equip mitigation mods/enhancements instead of dps ones when gearing, and taunts in this game are already ridiculously powerful as they do not merely place you at the top of the table but generate significant threat at the same time.

 

Yeah, I'm not really seeing what the OP is suggesting that we don't already have. My tank feels pretty specialized. I do significantly less damage than a DPS, conversely my threat gen is greatly increased, and I can take some powerful hits without batting an eye. And if things go south I've got a few emergency cooldowns to take care of it.

 

My healer feels pretty specialized as well. My healer hits like a wet noodle, but at the expense of my DPS my healing abilities are greatly buffed and I'm given access to multiple new heals or heals that were otherwise ineffective. I've got the ability to give some kind of long-lasting healing buff to other players, can heal the group with an AOE, and also have HOTs, instants, and channeled heals.

 

What more do we need exactly to be "specialized"?

[Raansu]

I don't think anyone who played old school MMOs like Rift or Aion would agree that having a DPS with a skill tree of Healing or Tanking is the same as specializing in it. Maybe this is the healer in me but while SWTOR almost gets tanking right, it does a horrible job for professional healing. A Tank or a Healer should have to manage. Buff this person, heal that person, AoE or individual? Immediate or over time?

 

SWTOR Tanking almost has it right but it's missing something. If I want to tweek my tanking gear, I should be playing between power (to hold agro), shield chance/absorb and overall defense and not have endgame gear with alacrity and accuracy. That's just stupid. It's hard enough to make my top level augments to tune my gear. I would also have a way to sacrifice offensive power for shielding and more powerful taunts than SWTOR has now.

 

Since when is rift and aion considered old school?

[jedip_enguin]

Since when is rift and aion considered old school?

 

Yeah, I let that slide in my reply, but thats a pretty weird thing to say.

[Kryand]

The only non-trinity MMO I've played is Champions Online. The game attempted to have tank/heal/dps roles, but you could take abilities from all 3 and do whatever you wanted. As a result, the best players had characters that could tank any damage in the game and/or heal themselves to full at all times and still put out top DPS. The content designers still tried to design content around the trinity though, resulting in even the hardest content being face-roll easy for the best players. If you don't have the trinity, content design has to be way outside the box if you want fights to have actual mechanics and not just be face-rolls by OP characters.

 

That said, SWTOR is absolutely a trinity MMO, and I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I would much prefer non-trinity MMOs, but they require actual creativity to design properly. Going trinity is nice and easy for game designers who just want to play it safe without thinking outside the box.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Kryand

[Raansu]

The only non-trinity MMO I've played is Champions Online. The game attempted to have tank/heal/dps roles, but you could take abilities from all 3 and do whatever you wanted. As a result, the best players had characters that could tank any damage in the game and/or heal themselves to full at all times and still put out top DPS. The content designers still tried to design content around the trinity though, resulting in even the hardest content being face-roll easy for the best players. If you don't have the trinity, content design has to be way outside the box if you want fights to have actual mechanics and not just be face-rolls by OP characters.

 

That said, SWTOR is absolutely a trinity MMO, and I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I would much prefer non-trinity MMOs, but they require actual creativity to design properly. Going trinity is nice and easy for game designers who just want to play it safe without thinking outside the box.

 

MMO's without the trinity or try to do something differently with it never work. Queue ESO and GW2.

[AlrikFassbauer]

What surprised me when I began playing MMOs (SWTOR is my second, my first was DDO), w3as, where the Trinity actually came from ?

 

I'll never understand it, because neither pen & paper RPGs nor "classic" offline RPGs had Trinity ...

[Kryand]

MMO's without the trinity or try to do something differently with it never work. Queue ESO and GW2.

 

Probably 99% of the time this is true. However, I do think it's possible. Like I said, it requires some creativity and outside-the-box thinking, which is very uncommon for modern game developers.

[EllieAnne]

Old school meaning your class determined your role. Like if you choose priest/priestess you were a healer unless you try (unsuccessfully in many cases) to be a water mage. It also means that a specialty class like healers or tanks had trouble leveling without DPSers around. If you couldn't find a group you were pretty well stuck.

 

SWTOR has everyone be DPS with the skill trees being

DPS + some heals

DPS + some tanking

DPS + more DPS

[Raansu]

Probably 99% of the time this is true. However, I do think it's possible. Like I said, it requires some creativity and outside-the-box thinking, which is very uncommon for modern game developers.

 

Without the trinity end game would be boring. Just look at the tactical FP's in swtor. Its not a matter of lacking creativity, its a simple fact that this genre just wont work without it. Even certain shooting games incorporate the trinity to some extent because the overall design is that good.

[Ryuku-sama]

All stuff we already have to do.

 

 

 

You already do that when you equip mitigation mods/enhancements instead of dps ones when gearing, and taunts in this game are already ridiculously powerful as they do not merely place you at the top of the table but generate significant threat at the same time.

 

Just to prove that further.. my lvl 33 Guardian tank, by using only Hilt Strike, Challenging Call (and a good rotation) generated, while soloing Taris WB, over 2.4m threat (15 min fight tho). The boss itself has 300k HP. which mean 1.8m threat was generated solely through Challenging Call and Hilt Strike.

[MillionsKNives]

What surprised me when I began playing MMOs (SWTOR is my second, my first was DDO), w3as, where the Trinity actually came from ?

 

I'll never understand it, because neither pen & paper RPGs nor "classic" offline RPGs had Trinity ...

 

It's a natural extension of the group dynamic. If you're going to have fights that are more than "let's see whose health runs out first" then you are going to need healing of some kind, which is where you get the person who can heal. The natural extension of that is a dedicated healer. Then there's the concept of having some players big and bulky who can take a hit, versus the light and nimble glass cannon. Along with that is the need to make fights interesting, where you have to move and control the boss in some form, so that person needs to be able to draw the boss's attention. If you combine that with the guy who can take some big hits you've got yourself the tank.

 

Probably 99% of the time this is true. However, I do think it's possible. Like I said, it requires some creativity and outside-the-box thinking, which is very uncommon for modern game developers.

 

It sounds like you're equating going with a system that works with being lazy and lacking creativity. That sounds pretty unfair, and unreasonable. Not every system or pattern needs to be thrown out just because it's old.

 

SWTOR has everyone be DPS with the skill trees being

DPS + some heals

DPS + some tanking

DPS + more DPS

 

It would be far more accurate to say that classes can either choose to specialize in DPS or Tank/Heals (if you're not a DPS only class). A healer spec'd as a healer is not a DPS. A tank spec'd as a tank is not a DPS.

[Raansu]

Not every system or pattern needs to be thrown out just because it's old.

 

Especially when its such a solid design. I understand some people want MMO's to be "different" but the trinity is just such a well designed mechanic for MMO's that its rare to ever stray away from it, and honestly, there isnt much else that would work without it. I guess a pure sandbox game could do it, but end game probably wouldn't exist, which is what many core MMO players seek.

[Kryand]

Without the trinity end game would be boring. Just look at the tactical FP's in swtor. Its not a matter of lacking creativity, its a simple fact that this genre just wont work without it. Even certain shooting games incorporate the trinity to some extent because the overall design is that good.

It sounds like you're equating going with a system that works with being lazy and lacking creativity. That sounds pretty unfair, and unreasonable. Not every system or pattern needs to be thrown out just because it's old.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad system or that there's anything wrong with using it. Modern game developers being bad is a totally unrelated issue that affects all genres. The trinity system works because of the depth of mechanics it allows fights to implement, as MillionsKNives mentioned. However, there are single-player games (ie. games where a trinity system is impossible) with various fun and difficult mechanics in their boss fights (Devil May Cry series being the first that pops in mind), that involve no healing or tanking at all. Expanding that into a multiplayer game could be the first step in an MMO that successfully strays from the trinity system. Like I said, again, it would just take some creativity.

[Raansu]

I'm not saying it's a bad system or that there's anything wrong with using it. Modern game developers being bad is a totally unrelated issue that affects all genres. The trinity system works because of the depth of mechanics it allows fights to implement, as MillionsKNives mentioned. However, there are single-player games (ie. games where a trinity system is impossible) with various fun and difficult mechanics in their boss fights (Devil May Cry series being the first that pops in mind), that involve no healing or tanking at all. Expanding that into a multiplayer game could be the first step in an MMO that successfully strays from the trinity system. Like I said, again, it would just take some creativity.

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between a game designed around a single player experience and a game designed around an MMO..........To think you would even compare the two is just.......wow. DMC incorporates healing through items and abilities, you're basically saying that you want to solo content like operations, which would be incredibly stupid. If you want that single player experience then you go play a single player game. That design has no place in an MMO.

[Kryand]

There is a MASSIVE difference between a game designed around a single player experience and a game designed around an MMO..........To think you would even compare the two is just.......wow. DMC incorporates healing through items and abilities, you're basically saying that you want to solo content like operations, which would be incredibly stupid. If you want that single player experience then you go play a single player game. That design has no place in an MMO.

 

Sounds to me like you're not very creative.

 

PS. Healing via items in DMC is only to give you leeway when you screw up mechanics. Playing well, you don't need to use any items.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Kryand