Scammed on the GTN

[AlienEyeTX]

You keep saying that like it means something. Scams can exist in plain sight, and they can exist despite the existence of tools to avoid it. But by all means, continue to clutch to your inaccuracies and spout them as truth.

 

 

 

Ah yes, completely misrepresenting the situation at hand. Lovely red herring that you seem to be fond of in this thread.

 

How is that a misrepresentation? It's EXACTLY the same thing that happened to the OP. Bought an item that could have been bought for fewer credits. That's all there is to it.

[AlienEyeTX]

I'm curious as to what people here would say about the following situation:

Someone advertises in chat that they are selling "Advanced Resolve Hilt 34 for mats, no fee". Another player goes up to him and initiates the trade, putting all the mats into the window and the seller puts in an Advanced Resolve Hilt 24. The buyer clicks "Trade" before he realizes that it was the wrong hilt, but the transaction is done.

 

I'd call that a scam but according to many people here that would be perfectly acceptable, since the Trade window shows everything both parties need to know. I'm not saying the buyer shouldn't have to pay attention. But do people really want to make the seller's behaviour socially acceptable?

 

No, that's wrong because the item traded was not the item advertised. Now, people should be smart enough to double-check before trading, but this situation is totally different. OP got the item advertised for the price advertised. Period.

[azudelphi]

I'm curious as to what people here would say about the following situation:

Someone advertises in chat that they are selling "Advanced Resolve Hilt 34 for mats, no fee". Another player goes up to him and initiates the trade, putting all the mats into the window and the seller puts in an Advanced Resolve Hilt 24. The buyer clicks "Trade" before he realizes that it was the wrong hilt, but the transaction is done.

 

I'd call that a scam but according to many people here that would be perfectly acceptable, since the Trade window shows everything both parties need to know. I'm not saying the buyer shouldn't have to pay attention. But do people really want to make the seller's behaviour socially acceptable?

 

Actually, per the fairly stable definitions of scam being thrown around, your resolve hilt example would be a reportable scam / offense. The transaction executed was different from the transaction agreed upon.

 

Problem is, using that same logic, the gtn only presents one option... to execute transactions based on terms set by the seller, and then left to an unknown buyer to determine if those terms are acceptable. The seller has literally no way to change the terms of the transaction after a buyer has chosen to accept them.

 

The OP admits it in the first post, they misread. Illiteracy, impatience, and lack of due diligence is not grounds for a scam.

 

The seller is obviously predatory, but in a system that is one mouse click from sending their listing to last-page oblivion... I mean, I just don't think it's right to bog down CS even more for lack of 1 mouse click and lack of ability to read.

[Darth_Wicked]

(...)

 

The seller is obviously predatory, but in a system that is one mouse click from sending their listing to last-page oblivion... I mean, I just don't think it's right to bog down CS even more for lack of 1 mouse click and lack of ability to read.

 

* listing goes for 333k; OP misreads *

 

DO WANT...!11111!!!

 

* warning pop-in kicks in *

Do you truly want to pay 333k fo--

FRAK OFF...!111!!!!

 

* pays 333k, misreads / misinterprets pricing, ignores the warning that pops in, calls foul and says he's scammed *

 

- - - -

 

I think someone should submit a script to Hollywood. Could be made into a movie... Everything needed is there.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Ridickilis]

I'm curious as to what people here would say about the following situation:

Someone advertises in chat that they are selling "Advanced Resolve Hilt 34 for mats, no fee". Another player goes up to him and initiates the trade, putting all the mats into the window and the seller puts in an Advanced Resolve Hilt 24. The buyer clicks "Trade" before he realizes that it was the wrong hilt, but the transaction is done.

 

I'd call that a scam but according to many people here that would be perfectly acceptable, since the Trade window shows everything both parties need to know. I'm not saying the buyer shouldn't have to pay attention. But do people really want to make the seller's behaviour socially acceptable?

 

It should be plainly obvious this is nothing like the situation in the OP. The deal was resolve 34 and the consumer got resolve 24.

 

The OP got exactly what was offered for the exact quantity advertised.

 

So I pull into a gas station and didn't realize it was 36.59 per gallon instead of 3.659 before pumping. The signage is clearly marked 36.59 above the gas pump as is the digital price on the pump itself. Who's at fault here and does the consumer have any recourse other than never going there again?

[TUXs]

That "best interest" has to be balanced by the fact that such things are a Customer Service nightmare and will take a massive amount of effort to resolve. For example, is an item that's 100% "overpriced" a scam? 200%? How about people that sold a million credit item for a thousand credits, are they entitled to have it back? It's a no-win situation for BW/EA.

 

The Customer Services people are excellent when it comes to individual player stupidity (e.g. a Sage healer buying a Strength implant with the Dread Master token and putting an aug on it....) but utterly ineffectual when it comes to complaints about other players (e.g. some of the endless abusive trolls on the server, and those with l33tsp3ak versions of obscenities as their character names).

You make a good point...the best I've seen so far and I think you're probably right...but what would it really take for someone to log in, check the GTN prices (or even offline logs) and see where HUGE discrepancies are and use their best judgement? How often does this occur? Daily? Weekly? How many players actually report their stupidity? I don't think I would...

 

My concern is that if Bioware does nothing, it only emboldens the scammers and punishes those who make innocent, albeit stupid, mistakes. I've made plenty myself...I just don't think allowing scammers to go unchecked is wise.

[Shoraan]

No, that's wrong because the item traded was not the item advertised. Now, people should be smart enough to double-check before trading, but this situation is totally different. OP got the item advertised for the price advertised. Period.

 

So what if he changed the advertisement to this:

Selling [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34] [Advanced Skill Barrel 34] [Advanced Battle Enhancement 34] [Advanced Initiative Enhancement 34] [Advanced Resolve Hilt 24] [Advanced Adept Enhancement 34] [Advanced Artful Mod 43] for mats, no fee.

 

The buyer writes "I want the hilt" instead of "I want the [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34]" and initiates the trade. Would that be ok, because the seller also advertised the 24 hilt?

[MillionsKNives]

How is that a misrepresentation? It's EXACTLY the same thing that happened to the OP. Bought an item that could have been bought for fewer credits. That's all there is to it.

 

In his example buy walks up and clicks the first thing without reading. Later finds cheaper items, calls scam.

 

In the actual circumstance, buyer walks up and accidentally sorts by descending, finds items placed specifically to prey upon unwary buyers and thinks it's 100x cheaper than it really is because it's listed at a price that at a glance appears to be the price they're looking for. They buy at over priced levels and call scam, while admitting that they screwed up.

 

If you can't find the difference between these two then I can't help you.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

Only if you, you know, ignore all that pesky facts and context. Who needs that when making an argument. It just gets in the way.

Edited August 29, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[AlienEyeTX]

So what if he changed the advertisement to this:

Selling [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34] [Advanced Skill Barrel 34] [Advanced Battle Enhancement 34] [Advanced Initiative Enhancement 34] [Advanced Resolve Hilt 24] [Advanced Adept Enhancement 34] [Advanced Artful Mod 43] for mats, no fee.

 

The buyer writes "I want the hilt" instead of "I want the [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34]" and initiates the trade. Would that be ok, because the seller also advertised the 24 hilt?

 

What is the point of this exercise? This is straying way off topic.

[MillionsKNives]

It should be plainly obvious this is nothing like the situation in the OP. The deal was resolve 34 and the consumer got resolve 24.

 

The OP got exactly what was offered for the exact quantity advertised.

 

So I pull into a gas station and didn't realize it was 36.59 per gallon instead of 3.659 before pumping. The signage is clearly marked 36.59 above the gas pump as is the digital price on the pump itself. Who's at fault here and does the consumer have any recourse other than never going there again?

 

I'm fairly sure if the going rate for gas was 3.659 per gallon in that area and that gas station was charging 36.59 per galon there would be some lawyers involved. That sounds exactly like a scam to me.

[Shoraan]

Actually, per the fairly stable definitions of scam being thrown around, your resolve hilt example would be a reportable scam / offense. The transaction executed was different from the transaction agreed upon.

 

Problem is, using that same logic, the gtn only presents one option... to execute transactions based on terms set by the seller, and then left to an unknown buyer to determine if those terms are acceptable. The seller has literally no way to change the terms of the transaction after a buyer has chosen to accept them.

 

The OP admits it in the first post, they misread. Illiteracy, impatience, and lack of due diligence is not grounds for a scam.

 

The seller is obviously predatory, but in a system that is one mouse click from sending their listing to last-page oblivion... I mean, I just don't think it's right to bog down CS even more for lack of 1 mouse click and lack of ability to read.

 

One could argue that the trade agreed upon is defined by whatever is placed into the Trade window and not the advertisement. By advertising the Resolve Hilt 34 the seller does not say that he's not selling anything else.

 

You call the seller in the GTN case predatory. On this we agree. But why the strict reluctance to call it a scam if the seller's intent is obviously the opposite of a fair trade?

[Darth_Wicked]

What is the point of this exercise? This is straying way off topic.

 

There is no point.

 

People are just throwing everything they can think of into the mix, even if the situation they're throwing is not comparable.

 

First, it was Pyramid schemes; Now, that.

 

I mean, it's like the GTN does allow the seller to change the item that is being sold without taking down the listing, amirite?

[Darth_Wicked]

One could argue that the trade agreed upon is defined by whatever is placed into the Trade window and not the advertisement. By advertising the Resolve Hilt 34 the seller does not say that he's not selling anything else.

 

You call the seller in the GTN case predatory. On this we agree. But why the strict reluctance to call it a scam if the seller's intent is obviously the opposite of a fair trade?

 

You're still missing the point it would seem...

 

In the case of the buyer that got the Resolve 24 hilt, he was scammed due to the fact that the item he was supposed to receive was not there.

 

THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH THE OP.

 

The OP simply misread or misinterpreted a listing. There was no change in price halfway, just before making the purchase nor was the item he desired changed.

 

Again, both examples are not comparable.

[DariusCalera]

So what if he changed the advertisement to this:

Selling [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34] [Advanced Skill Barrel 34] [Advanced Battle Enhancement 34] [Advanced Initiative Enhancement 34] [Advanced Resolve Hilt 24] [Advanced Adept Enhancement 34] [Advanced Artful Mod 43] for mats, no fee.

 

The buyer writes "I want the hilt" instead of "I want the [Advanced Resolve Hilt 34]" and initiates the trade. Would that be ok, because the seller also advertised the 24 hilt?

 

And in that situation most sellers are going to ask "Which hilt?" Even if they didn't the buy shoudl eb smart enough to double check what is being offered int he trade window.

 

By the definition of a scam that a lot of people seem to be using, the game vendors themselves could scam a player.

 

Player goes to buy a Might hilt using planetary comms, accidentally buys a resolve hilt and places it in their weapon and binds it to them. They then notice that it was a resolve hilt and not a might hilt and demand their comms back because they bought something that they didn't intend to.

[Calsetes]

In his example buy walks up and clicks the first thing without reading. Later finds cheaper items, calls scam.

 

In the actual circumstance, buyer walks up and accidentally sorts by descending, finds items placed specifically to prey upon unwary buyers and thinks it's 100x cheaper than it really is because it's listed at a price that at a glance appears to be the price they're looking for. They buy at over priced levels and call scam, while admitting that they screwed up.

 

If you can't find the difference between these two then I can't help you.

 

 

 

Only if you, you know, ignore all that pesky facts and context. Who needs that when making an argument. It just gets in the way.

 

The thing you're missing though is, if he did indeed sort by price or price per unit, he wouldn't even see the entry marked as 333,333 in the same location as the ones marked for 333 and 333.33 credits. Literally the only way this would happen is if the following were true:

 

1. He looked at the most expensive first, and picked the top option. Big mistake - he's asking to waste money.

 

2. He didn't sort and every single option listed was 333 or 333.33 except for the one he clicked - again, big mistake.

 

3. He sorted by cheapest to most expensive and nobody sold one for any amount between "333.33" and "333,333," and he picked the bottom-most one on that first page. Again, big mistake.

 

 

This is not a scam, period. The example someone else used with "selling" a 34 hilt for mats, and replacing it with a 24 hilt instead in a personal one-on-one trade is a scam as what is advertised and what is agreed-upon by both people is not what was in the trade, although the buyer is still at some fault for not looking at the other half of the trade window first before hitting "accept."

[MillionsKNives]

And in that situation most sellers are going to ask "Which hilt?" Even if they didn't the buy shoudl eb smart enough to double check what is being offered int he trade window.

 

By the definition of a scam that a lot of people seem to be using, the game vendors themselves could scam a player.

 

Player goes to buy a Might hilt using planetary comms, accidentally buys a resolve hilt and places it in their weapon and binds it to them. They then notice that it was a resolve hilt and not a might hilt and demand their comms back because they bought something that they didn't intend to.

 

I'm fairly sure everyone here calling it a scam is using the same definition, which has been listed multiple times. It's where one party attempts to deceive the other for personal gain. Please tell me how a vendor would deceive you? Did they list their items in such a way that it made the resolve hilt appear to be a might hilt?

 

Deception and intent are the key words here.

 

Fun fact: if you buy the wrong items from a vendor, BioWare will sometimes refund it for you.

[well]

There seems to be a lot more of this yutts trying to scam people. You really have to be careful.

[AlienEyeTX]

In his example buy walks up and clicks the first thing without reading. Later finds cheaper items, calls scam.

 

In the actual circumstance, buyer walks up and accidentally sorts by descending, finds items placed specifically to prey upon unwary buyers and thinks it's 100x cheaper than it really is because it's listed at a price that at a glance appears to be the price they're looking for. They buy at over priced levels and call scam, while admitting that they screwed up.

 

If you can't find the difference between these two then I can't help you.

 

 

 

Only if you, you know, ignore all that pesky facts and context. Who needs that when making an argument. It just gets in the way.

 

The only difference is that one sorted and one didn't. That really doesn't change the situation. But it does make me less sympathetic to the OP because they were just careless.

[MillionsKNives]

The thing you're missing though is, if he did indeed sort by price or price per unit, he wouldn't even see the entry marked as 333,333 in the same location as the ones marked for 333 and 333.33 credits. Literally the only way this would happen is if the following were true:

 

1. He looked at the most expensive first, and picked the top option. Big mistake - he's asking to waste money.

 

2. He didn't sort and every single option listed was 333 or 333.33 except for the one he clicked - again, big mistake.

 

3. He sorted by cheapest to most expensive and nobody sold one for any amount between "333.33" and "333,333," and he picked the bottom-most one on that first page. Again, big mistake.

 

 

This is not a scam, period. The example someone else used with "selling" a 34 hilt for mats, and replacing it with a 24 hilt instead in a personal one-on-one trade is a scam as what is advertised and what is agreed-upon by both people is not what was in the trade, although the buyer is still at some fault for not looking at the other half of the trade window first before hitting "accept."

 

Most scams rely on the person being scammed to make a mistake. Your attempts to debunk it being a scam continue to fall flat.

[MillionsKNives]

The only difference is that one sorted and one didn't. That really doesn't change the situation. But it does make me less sympathetic to the OP because they were just careless.

 

If that's the only difference you can find then I can't help you. One can only lead a horse to water...

Edited August 29, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Calsetes]

Most scams rely on the person being scammed to make a mistake. Your attempts to debunk it being a scam continue to fall flat.

 

Except for the parts where I detail how incredibly unlikely the situation you're claiming happened would actually happen. How else will a price per unit of 333,333 be listed mixed in with prices per unit that are 333 or 333.33? If you can explain that one to me - and have it be extremely plausible - then you might have a point that it's a "scam."

[MillionsKNives]

Except for the parts where I detail how incredibly unlikely the situation you're claiming happened would actually happen. How else will a price per unit of 333,333 be listed mixed in with prices per unit that are 333 or 333.33? If you can explain that one to me - and have it be extremely plausible - then you might have a point that it's a "scam."

 

A person double-clicks the sort because it's buggy and/or laggy. Tada!

[Calsetes]

A person double-clicks the sort because it's buggy and/or laggy. Tada!

 

Then seeing the higher-priced item on top of the list would tip them off that something's amiss. And, mind you, there would need to be no entries inbetween 333,333 per unit and 333.33 per unit. That's also highly unlikely.

[Shoraan]

What is the point of this exercise? This is straying way off topic.

 

The point is that sellers on the GTN don't just advertise explicitely with their own offer but implicitely in the context of other offers on the GTN. A buyer usually searches the GTN for an item and would expect (from years of subconscious training in RL) the prices to be within the same order of magnitude.

 

People expect prices for Satele Shan's Tunic in the order of 500K to 5 million. In the same way people expect Turadium somewhere between 400 and 4K per unit. (Not sure why someone would expect it for less than 400, since that's approximately the non-crit mission cost for rich missions.)

 

It is simply the way our brain works. We see a price for an item and our brain interprets the price as 300 credits, because that is much more likely than 300K credits.

 

I know that the OP's situation and my example are not directly comparable. I'm just saying that listing Turadium for a price-per-unit that is designed to mimic the normal unit price range should not be labelled as acceptable behaviour. It's an attempt to abuse a flawed UI in order to take advantage of other players, aka scam.

[MillionsKNives]

Then seeing the higher-priced item on top of the list would tip them off that something's amiss. And, mind you, there would need to be no entries inbetween 333,333 per unit and 333.33 per unit. That's also highly unlikely.

 

Unless that higher-priced item at the top is the 333,333 per unit, which they expected as the lowest item. There's no reason that there can't be other entries between 333,333 and 333.333. All it requires is that the person thinks it's sorted by lowest, for the number they're looking at to be what they expected (even if what they expected is in actuality 100x less), and that the number is at the top.

 

This situation is pretty easy to pull off. Not many people sensibly price these items at those levels so most likely there won't be any listed for more expensive. The sorting column is buggy and sometimes requires multiple clicks for it to sort properly (i.e., when you first search for an item, even if the sort column is set to ascending it won't be sorted at all), or it's laggy and also requires multiple clicks for it to register. And some/many people aren't very careful or perceptive when going about rote tasks.