Scammed on the GTN

[Jamus_Divinus]

No scam. No refund due. Sympathy for the OP. Lesson learnt. Disgust for the seller. Scum not scam.

 

My 333,345 cents

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jamus_Divinus

[LilyJedi]

One piece of Turadium... Listed for... 333k(!) credits... An "error"...?!

 

All five pieces - adding up - for 1.5(!!!) million credits...?!

 

Now I've seen it all.

 

He almost certainly bought something that was supposed to be bought by a Credit Seller -- so while the seller may well not have been abiding by Bioware's rules, the intent probably wasn't to defraud random other players.

[Fraah]

Servers are down, so time to wade in with some pedantry....

 

 

Definition of scam (courtesy of The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)

 

 

A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

 

 

 

So, I guess we want a definition of fraud next (Random House Dictionary, courtesy of dictionary.com this time...I just used the first links which came up in google)..

 

 

 

noun

1.

deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.

2.

a particular instance of such deceit or trickery:

mail fraud; election frauds.

3.

any deception, trickery, or humbug:

That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.

4.

a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

.

 

 

So, what I take from this, a scam is, by definition, a business or money making scheme based on deceit/trickery. It is not only used to describe a confidence trick per se, which is sometimes seen as a synonym.

 

 

noun

noun: synonym; plural noun: synonyms

 

a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close.

 

 

 

Which makes it pretty clear to me that the practice described in this thread IS A SCAM.

 

OK, the trickery/deceit is pretty simple (trying to make very expensive listings look cheap), but it is a money making scheme and it does use trickery/deceit

 

 

the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth, thanks google

 

 

None of which means that EA can or should do anything about this, the only thing which can be done is people being more careful.

 

The Argument that this ploy isn't a scam, because it is carelessness by people which causes them to lose mkoney is fatuous

 

 

adjective: fatuous

 

silly and pointless...sorry, I'll stop now

 

 

as most scams do not rely on the brilliance of the scam itself as much as victims letting greed get in the way of caution, which is exactly what is happening here...

 

The argument that some people might thing their Turadium is worth 600k is of course even more fatuous, so I won't even bother with that here.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Fraah

[LilyJedi]

If the prosecution of every real world transgression was dependent upon proving an offernders intention beyond any doubt instead of reviewing evidence and coming to a conclusion, barely anyone would ever get convicted.

Um, I don't know about the legal system where you live, but in the United Kingdom, the standard for a criminal conviction is "beyond reasonable doubt", whereas for a civil case it's "based on the balance of probabilities".

[thewitchdoctor]

Refund.

 

First, apologies if this already got jumped on.

 

TUX, there is a fundamental flaw in that reasoning.

 

So, you put an item on the GTN and I bought it. I have buyer's remorse and put in a claim saying I bought the item in error, or that you overpriced it, or whatever excuse meets the threshold.

 

Where does the refund money come from? You or is it 'created' to fill the refund?

 

If it comes from you, I am pretty sure you'd be pissed when the mechanic was used ... fraudulently (see this thread) ... and money is taken from your account. If it is created; well, I am sure some one will figure out a way to ... fraudulently (see the Conquest farming threads) ... make money off it.

 

So, s**ks for the OP, but it is really already a functional system. Yes, there are d**kheads who will try to catch folks unawre. But the system has a functioning sort, shows you individual price, total price, and quantity.

[thewitchdoctor]

If the prosecution of every real world transgression was dependent upon proving an offernders intention beyond any doubt instead of reviewing evidence and coming to a conclusion, barely anyone would ever get convicted.

 

Um ... yeah, so, that's the fundamental basis of EVERY common law country. The US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, for starters.

 

Please see, Lord Sankey, Wolmington v DPP, the 'golden thread.'

 

In the alternative, go watch Law and Order.

[Knorlac]

Um, I don't know about the legal system where you live, but in the United Kingdom, the standard for a criminal conviction is "beyond reasonable doubt", whereas for a civil case it's "based on the balance of probabilities".

 

Perhaps I didn't manage to present my point eloquently enough, but what you said doesn't contradict what I was inferring.

 

The poster I was adressing stated that the practice in question cannot be a scam because we don't know the seller's intent.

 

EDIT: This doesn't mean it can't be a scam if there is reasonable doubt, it means it can't be a scam is there is any doubt. It's like saying a person trying to smuggle several smartphones past the register shouldn't be convicted as a shoplifter as long as he doesn't confess to it. After all the products could've fallen into his bag when he bumped into the isle by accident.

 

While we indeed won't be 100% sure of the seller's intent unless he comes out and tells us that misleading unaware customers was his intent, we can review the evidence and rule out other possible explanations for his behaviour.

 

Did he just misprice the mats?

Seeing that the sellers in question relist their mats over a longer period of time for the same high price that mimics the going(and much lower) rate to some extent and do this for different mats as well, I find it highly doubtful that a seller would confuse 333k with 333 again and again. (beyond reasonable doubt I might say)

 

Does he use the GTN to store the mats?

Not likely as he lists them in multiple stacks of 5 or less when it would be logical to just put them in one stack instead. Also the listed price surely does not always resemble the going rate out of sheer coincidence every single time. More logical would be to set the price at 999.999.999 for example and be done with it.

 

That's all I was saying basically. The evidence makes an intended scam as per definition seem much more likely than other explanations that I can think of. (beyond reasonable doubt/ according to balance of probabilities)

Edited August 29, 2014 by Knorlac

[LilyJedi]

While we indeed won't be 100% sure of the seller's intent unless he comes out and tells us that misleading unaware customers was his intent, we can review the evidence and rule out other possible explanations for his behaviour.

 

Did he just misprice the mats?

Seeing that the sellers in question relist their mats over a longer period of time for the same high price that mimics the going(and much lower) rate to some extent and do this for different mats as well, I find it highly doubtful that a seller would confuse 333k with 333 again and again. (beyond reasonable doubt I might say)

 

Does he use the GTN to store the mats?

Not likely as he lists them in multiple stacks of 5 or less when it would be logical to just put them in one stack instead. Also the listed price surely does not always resemble the going rate out of sheer coincidence every single time. More logical would be to set the price at 999.999.999 for example and be done with it.

 

That's all I was saying basically. The evidence makes an intended scam as per definition seem much more likely than other explanations that I can think of. (beyond reasonable doubt/ according to balance of probabilities)

For the first, we don't know if the seller that the OP is referring to has been doing this before.

 

I agree that the "GTN as storage" suggestion isn't likely for a stack of 5.

 

However, you did not address my theory, which is that it's a listing intended to be bought by a Gold Seller. Clearly not using a F2P account, but they need subscriber accounts to handle the large amounts of currency involved, anyway. In such a case, there would be no scam because there is no intent to defraud another player. (Intent to bypass any EA/BW policies regarding real money transactions, however, is a different matter).

Edited August 29, 2014 by LilyJedi

[Calsetes]

did you just accuse me of being a scammer? seriously?

 

I don't even..

 

I give up. personal responsibility is apparently a lost concept. as is paying attention.

 

and no. I don't list stuff like that. I'm far too impatient. I look at the lowest price per unit and undercut it, usually listing in smaller quantities so that it shows up as close to first page as I can manage, regardless of whether you are looking by cheapest unit cost or total price, so that I could move my stuff quickly. or would you call that a scam too? at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

 

Yeah, we're not allowed to have people be responsible for things on their end nowadays. After all, what would happen if they do something stupid and end up hurting themselves? They might have to learn not to do that sort of thing again and live with that mistake, and we can never let that happen!

[Knorlac]

For the first, we don't know if the seller that the OP is referring to has been doing this before.

 

I agree that the "GTN as storage" suggestion isn't likely for a stack of 5.

 

However, you did not address my theory, which is that it's a listing intended to be bought by a Gold Seller. Clearly not using a F2P account, but they need subscriber accounts to handle the large amounts of currency involved, anyway. In such a case, there would be no scam because there is no intent to defraud another player. (Intent to bypass any EA/BW policies regarding real money transactions, however, is a different matter).

 

Ok I'll agree that we would have to observe this specific seller over a longer period, but I wasn't strictly referring to this one person. The practice in question can be found on every server and there are multiple sellers on each that all display the same MO.

 

Your credit seller theory is surely the most probable one out of the possible explanations, but the fact that pricing mats at what resembles the going rate is a rather common occurrence over multiple servers makes me doubt that as well..wouldn't it be less conspicous to use a single cartel item for that? I mean almost no one suspects any foulplay when we see an outlandishly high price for one of those, we just think "dream on" and move on laughing.

 

At any rate, even if this all isn't enough to "prove" that those sellers are scammers, I still contest the notion, that it can't be a scam unless their intent is 100% known.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Knorlac

[AlienEyeTX]

I can't believe this thread is still alive. Is there anything new to write?

[rashadk]

Except there was no deceit or misrepresentation here. The GTN does not 'Hide' the price, it does not show any more or any less than the price being asked of the buyer. It even shows you in separate columns the entire price and the per item price. Lastly, you even get a little pop up box asking .. "Are you sure . blah blah?"

 

It's about as fool-proof a method as you can get. What else should the system do? Two pop up boxes asking if you're sure? 3? 4? Maybe a pop up asking "Now are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY sure you want to buy this stuff at this price?"

 

For the OP, take some responsibility for your mistake. And it is ... your ... mistake.

 

Deceive: (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage. (google dict).

 

Can our situation fall under this definition? Can it still be deception by actually telling the truth? Under this definition, I believe so. Of course you are welcome to reject this definition and use your own which is what I stated previously. If I was a humanities professor and this was a paper topic I could give A's to a few people on both sides of the argument. You'd get a C though, for failing to address the opposing side.

 

As for your second paragraph... I don't know why people are still saying this as it was resolved in the first page. NO ONE I have seen is saying the OP is not responsible. Even if he was 'scammed' it was still his fault.

[Kantaso]

The problem with OP and others is that people nowadays dont know what money looks like, everything is done by credit card, debit card, etc etc. Learn your numbers, 2,345,567 does not mean $23455.67

[rashadk]

I love that the Entitled Generation is trying to change the meaning of words.

"I did something stupid" has been repackaged and is now advertised as "I've been scammed".

 

Because nothing's ever our fault.

We need everyone - from governments to video game companies - to protect us and save us the trouble of watching what we do, who we trust, what we buy and most importantly actually using our brains when we do any of the aforementioned things.

 

Pfft.

 

Oh my.

 

I really feel like some people use the "entitlement generation" like a boogeyman to blame anything they don't like on. What do you know of which generation anyone here is in?

[Kantaso]

I love that the Entitled Generation is trying to change the meaning of words.

"I did something stupid" has been repackaged and is now advertised as "I've been scammed".

 

Because nothing's ever our fault.

We need everyone - from governments to video game companies - to protect us and save us the trouble of watching what we do, who we trust, what we buy and most importantly actually using our brains when we do any of the aforementioned things.

 

Pfft.

 

Agreed with you 100%

[jorill]

well just take it as a lesson op. You wont be making that mistake again. One thing i always do is list my unit price and sort from low to high so i never get caught by that crap. You arent getting your money back though. I also wouldnt consider it a scam as there was nothing deceitful about the listing in my opinion

[scottythebod]

I understand the fault is mine and that was the intent of the scam..

I love that the Entitled Generation is trying to change the meaning of words.

"I did something stupid" has been repackaged and is now advertised as "I've been scammed".

 

Because nothing's ever our fault.

We need everyone - from governments to video game companies - to protect us and save us the trouble of watching what we do, who we trust, what we buy and most importantly actually using our brains when we do any of the aforementioned things.

 

Pfft.

I love how you accuse him of thinking nothings ever his fault when your quoted sentence clearly states he knows it's his own fault. And "I did something stupid" hasn't been repackaged as "I've been scammed". The two statements are not mutually exclusive. In fact I'd argue that most people who do get scammed did something stupid to allow that to happen in the first place.

 

Also the only person I've seen in this thread say BW/EA should do anything is TUX, the rest of us are saying it sucks that the OP got scammed, but it was ultimately his own fault & there's not anything BW/EA can realistically do about it. However that doesn't disqualify it from being a scam. Looking at the evidence I believe the item was listed in a way to make the price deceptive. Granted it's a scam that is easily avoided by paying even the slightest of attention, but it's intent is to trick those who aren't paying very close attention.

[ERockABC]

My .333 cents .......

I think the seller intended to sell the listed items for 333,333 each, and was successful.

I think the buyer intended to buy those items, and paid the price he clicked on.

Not a scam, just an over priced item, and an unobservent buyer.

 

Buyer Beware!

[TUXs]

First, apologies if this already got jumped on.

 

TUX, there is a fundamental flaw in that reasoning.

 

So, you put an item on the GTN and I bought it. I have buyer's remorse and put in a claim saying I bought the item in error, or that you overpriced it, or whatever excuse meets the threshold.

 

Where does the refund money come from? You or is it 'created' to fill the refund?

 

If it comes from you, I am pretty sure you'd be pissed when the mechanic was used ... fraudulently (see this thread) ... and money is taken from your account. If it is created; well, I am sure some one will figure out a way to ... fraudulently (see the Conquest farming threads) ... make money off it.

 

So, s**ks for the OP, but it is really already a functional system. Yes, there are d**kheads who will try to catch folks unawre. But the system has a functioning sort, shows you individual price, total price, and quantity.

I'm not suggesting a REFUND button, but I do believe that Bioware needs to have some policy in place to reverse something like this. Isn't it in Bioware's best interest to help protect new players from the d**kheads out there by refunding this? Wouldn't they (we) be better off keeping the new player happy vs. rewarding the deceitful players?

 

I'm not talking about you buying a Rancor for 7 mil, then seeing one listed for 6 mil and wanting to return the one for 7 so you can save 1 mil...we're talking about someone accidentally buying an item for nearly 100x's it's actual worth because they simply misread the listing.

 

My opinion is that it is in Bioware's best interest to step in, case by case, not automatically, and prevent scammers from preying on their new customers. That's why I suggest a ticket be opened and see where it goes. Hopefully Bioware will do what, in my opinion of course, is right. Bioware isn't to blame at all, this is all on the 2 parties involved (ignorance and deceit), but Bioware can, and should, police issues like this.

[LilyJedi]

My opinion is that it is in Bioware's best interest to step in, case by case, not automatically, and prevent scammers from preying on their new customers. That's why I suggest a ticket be opened and see where it goes. Hopefully Bioware will do what, in my opinion of course, is right. Bioware isn't to blame at all, this is all on the 2 parties involved (ignorance and deceit), but Bioware can, and should, police issues like this.

 

That "best interest" has to be balanced by the fact that such things are a Customer Service nightmare and will take a massive amount of effort to resolve. For example, is an item that's 100% "overpriced" a scam? 200%? How about people that sold a million credit item for a thousand credits, are they entitled to have it back? It's a no-win situation for BW/EA.

 

The Customer Services people are excellent when it comes to individual player stupidity (e.g. a Sage healer buying a Strength implant with the Dread Master token and putting an aug on it....) but utterly ineffectual when it comes to complaints about other players (e.g. some of the endless abusive trolls on the server, and those with l33tsp3ak versions of obscenities as their character names).

Edited August 29, 2014 by LilyJedi

[Koendewit]

Wow OP. You say you got scammed on the GTN. L2read and don't click/buy stuff you aren't sure about. This is entitlement at its highest.

[branmakmuffin]

I'm not suggesting a REFUND button, but I do believe that Bioware needs to have some policy in place to reverse something like this. Isn't it in Bioware's best interest to help protect new players from the d**kheads out there by refunding this? Wouldn't they (we) be better off keeping the new player happy vs. rewarding the deceitful players?

This is like looting the guild bank and then quitting the guild. In each case, the "victim" was dumb. It's a game. We don't need BWEA to come in and police player interactions unless they are along the lines of harassment. "I paid too much for this item" is nothing even close to harassment.

[Calsetes]

I'm not suggesting a REFUND button, but I do believe that Bioware needs to have some policy in place to reverse something like this. Isn't it in Bioware's best interest to help protect new players from the d**kheads out there by refunding this? Wouldn't they (we) be better off keeping the new player happy vs. rewarding the deceitful players?

 

I'm not talking about you buying a Rancor for 7 mil, then seeing one listed for 6 mil and wanting to return the one for 7 so you can save 1 mil...we're talking about someone accidentally buying an item for nearly 100x's it's actual worth because they simply misread the listing.

 

My opinion is that it is in Bioware's best interest to step in, case by case, not automatically, and prevent scammers from preying on their new customers. That's why I suggest a ticket be opened and see where it goes. Hopefully Bioware will do what, in my opinion of course, is right. Bioware isn't to blame at all, this is all on the 2 parties involved (ignorance and deceit), but Bioware can, and should, police issues like this.

 

But it's not a scam because there's no possible way to scam someone using the GTN as all prices are listed, several places, for that particular auction slot and you have a variety of tools at your disposal that would have easily prevented such an occurrence from happening in the first place (namely the "sort by price" and "sort by unit price" tools.)

 

If I walk up to a GTN for the first time in a play session, do a search for "Satele Shan's Tunic," and immediately buy one on that first page without sorting or double-checking the listings - I mean, they look close enough, right? - can I say that I was scammed because I bought one someone listed at 4,000,000 when later on I found there's quite a few listed at 400k to 450k? Does Bioware have any responsibility to fix my situation because I was "scammed?" Was this indeed a scam, or simply inattentiveness and a lack of using proper tools on my part?

[MillionsKNives]

But it's not a scam because there's no possible way to scam someone using the GTN as all prices are listed, several places, for that particular auction slot and you have a variety of tools at your disposal that would have easily prevented such an occurrence from happening in the first place (namely the "sort by price" and "sort by unit price" tools.)

 

You keep saying that like it means something. Scams can exist in plain sight, and they can exist despite the existence of tools to avoid it. But by all means, continue to clutch to your inaccuracies and spout them as truth.

 

If I walk up to a GTN for the first time in a play session, do a search for "Satele Shan's Tunic," and immediately buy one on that first page without sorting or double-checking the listings - I mean, they look close enough, right? - can I say that I was scammed because I bought one someone listed at 4,000,000 when later on I found there's quite a few listed at 400k to 450k? Does Bioware have any responsibility to fix my situation because I was "scammed?" Was this indeed a scam, or simply inattentiveness and a lack of using proper tools on my part?

 

Ah yes, completely misrepresenting the situation at hand. Lovely red herring that you seem to be fond of in this thread.

[Shoraan]

I'm curious as to what people here would say about the following situation:

Someone advertises in chat that they are selling "Advanced Resolve Hilt 34 for mats, no fee". Another player goes up to him and initiates the trade, putting all the mats into the window and the seller puts in an Advanced Resolve Hilt 24. The buyer clicks "Trade" before he realizes that it was the wrong hilt, but the transaction is done.

 

I'd call that a scam but according to many people here that would be perfectly acceptable, since the Trade window shows everything both parties need to know. I'm not saying the buyer shouldn't have to pay attention. But do people really want to make the seller's behaviour socially acceptable?