housing got decoration hooks :((

[hunterraaze]

I actually hope the contention that housing will be used as a travel hub by most folks and not as a decoration minigame (I think that was what you were indicating, correct me if I am wrong) is wrong. If that is in fact the case, I would feel that a large amount of development capital was spent for little to no gain....and I

 

Well.... As I mentioned in another thread, the only thing I'm going to use Strongholds for is the legacy storage. I couldn't care less about housing. I'm going to get my free stronghold for being a subscriber, get legacy storage, and call it good. It's not just this game though, in literally any other game that has housing, I never use it for anything but storage. If you look at any of my houses in any of the Elder Scrolls games, they are completely empty, and I only use the chest that comes with the house for storage (exception being the Skingrad house in Oblivion, but come on, that thing was awesome).

 

Despite that though, I am glad they are doing this. We all know that housing has been something that many people have been asking for, and it's good to see that Bioware is listening. I also understand that every update doesn't need to revolve around my wants and desires. I do hope that strongholds is a success, I just know I won't be contributing to that success.

[Vinak]

To see how free placement might be awful for average person, just look at Eric trying his hand at decorating. What he build has pretty bad, but it still had some sort of structure. Now imagine that scene if the free placement existed...

 

I will concede that placing hooks on tables is the only thing that this system might be lacking (from what we have seen), but I am still willing to give it the benefit of doubt until I actually play with it.

 

His struggles were based around his unfamiliarity with the items, the interface, and the fact he had to manage a stream audience. Given some time, I am sure he will manage just fine.

 

Their really isn't anything complex or difficult with dropping an item at your feet(rather than on a hook) and using their UI to adjust the positioning. That's really all they'd have to change for the most part. Then just add small clutter items over the next few months. (datapads, lamps, holocrons, etc. etc.)

 

Boom. You have free placement. The hooks are already implemented into the system, so those of us that want it can have it.

 

It really isn't any of their business if some people choose to make an asymmetric, disorganized mess within their own space. Why this is such a major concern for them is simply beyond me.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Vinak

[LordArtemis]

Well, as I mentioned earlier I would love to see a few free movement hooks that one could move around and drop where desired, before locking them down for use. It would be a good compromise IMO....those that want some freedom would get that freedom, at least in part, and the original system would remain as designed.

[Xakthul]

Okay... I finally watched the Twitch thing.

 

The hooks themselves are pretty versatile, and even if the hooks themselves aren't moveable, the actual items on the hooks can be set off-kilter as needed. I've played a few games where the extreme form of free placement (i.e. the SOE games) can seriously mess with actual interaction, and can cause really heavy lag in some cases.

[ghoul_drool]

Okay... I finally watched the Twitch thing.

 

The hooks themselves are pretty versatile, and even if the hooks themselves aren't moveable, the actual items on the hooks can be set off-kilter as needed. I've played a few games where the extreme form of free placement (i.e. the SOE games) can seriously mess with actual interaction, and can cause really heavy lag in some cases.

 

The ammount of wiggleroom didn't strike me as all that fantastic, and I miss being able to place items on their side, or on top of other items. Other than that, it looks pretty flexible. I just hope they don't try to limit us even further.

[Deewe]

I actually hope the contention that housing will be used as a travel hub by most folks

Whatever convenient, there's an issue with that.

 

It would indeed be convenient but this way the devs are removing a major social hub from the game: fleet.

I pretty much dislike the way the social hub (fleet) was designed but removing it will still hurt the game.

 

Well.... As I mentioned in another thread, the only thing I'm going to use Strongholds for is the legacy storage. I couldn't care less about housing.

That the thing here and I expect the legacy storage not to be that convenient. Hopefully I'm wrong but we'll see soon enough.

 

 

From a business and design point of view, while stronghold will increase CM sales and give players a new game play, it has flaws.

 

First housing, is supposedly a niche market. As such people who care for it, meaning they'll subscribe of leave because of it, won't be pleased with the current model as it's too limited without free item placement.

 

Then the same players can already find better implementation of housing in others AAA MMO: EQ2, Rift, Wildstar...

 

People who don't care at all for housing will also be impacted by the focus on that feature in the way that the $$$ should have been better spent on actual "content" or bug fixes or convenience fixes (ex: one click get rid of gold spammers account wide).

 

It leave us with (maybe) the majority of the players, who will toy with it but in then end will either drop this feature after a bit or who'll want more of it because they are starting to like it. In either case it's not a win situation.

 

 

Speaking of the convenience to use the system, in its actual implementation it's not that convenient.

The hook system requires the player to know from start the desired layout and the footprint of each item (s)he want to drop to achieve it.

 

Then the UI is a bit cumbersome. Did you notice how the devs fumbled with moving the objects in the right position/direction from start?

 

Also, if you change the hook layout in an existing set up area you automatically dismiss all items.

 

Another issue is, in the demo, you actually don't see the item shape in the lists until selected. In a way it's going to be painful to browse through all items one after the other. In other games the item is identifiedat least with a proper icon if not a smaller 3D rendering of the object.

 

 

One can argue some/many/most players suck at setting up nice layouts, I dare saying binding players hands (hooks) won't help them that much. What would help is:

• Letting other decorate strongholds (I know I did it in other games)
  
• Allowing players to save/reload layouts (cf Wildstar)
  
• Implement a real estate market
  

 

 

Now how about space ships?

The strongholds will make them way less useful. BioWare could have started investing less by starting making space ships as housing.

 

 

All in all with a few tweaking here and there the system would be great and help the game overall success in the long term.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Deewe

[casirabit]

It would indeed be convenient but this way the devs are removing a major social hub from the game: fleet.

I pretty much dislike the way the social hub (fleet) was designed but removing it will still hurt the game.

 

They have also said they know people would like the fleet chat so they could add it to the channel but frankly I could care less about the fleet chat. All that is on the fleet chat lately is chat I would prefer not to see anyway. I only go to the fleet when I have to go to the comm vendor. The language and the way chat has become lately on the fleet they did me a favor.

 

That the thing here and I expect the legacy storage not to be that convenient. Hopefully I'm wrong but we'll see soon enough.

 

Considering you can essentially quick travel to your stronghold and then quick travel back to the location you were at seems very convenient.

 

 

First housing, is supposedly a niche market. As such people who care for it, meaning they'll subscribe of leave because of it, won't be pleased with the current model as it's too limited without free item placement.

 

The people I know that have been wanting housing are very excited about this. Everyone seems to forget that just because some of us have had the free placement before and it is easy for us, doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. Don't give me the excuse well it is easy to learn, it's not. I spent 4 months on SWG helping people learn the free placement system there and quite a few were ready to quit because of it. So maybe we need to step back and consider those that have never had housing before.

 

People who don't care at all for housing will also be impacted by the focus on that feature in the way that the $$$ should have been better spent on actual "content" or bug fixes or convenience fixes (ex: one click get rid of gold spammers account wide).

 

There are always going to be people who don't like something in a game. They game is never going to please everyone all the time. I could care less about pvp but I don't complain when they add something or they change something in one of the classes to make it better for pvp. So this comment can be applied to anything in the game that someone doesn't like.

It leave us with (maybe) the majority of the players, who will toy with it but in then end will either drop this feature after a bit or who'll want more of it because they are starting to like it. In either case it's not a win situation

.

 

First, you don't know this for a fact and second I know for a fact my guild and my friends are excited and my guild leader is going to purchase a stronghold for the guild. We all intend to use our strongholds. And furthermore, the majority of players don't come to the forums and from what I have heard on my server most are thrilled and can't wait for the housing, hooks and all.

 

Speaking of the convenience to use the system, in its actual implementation it's not that convenient.

The hook system requires the player to know from start the desired layout and the footprint of each item (s)he want to drop to achieve it.

 

When I looked at the system, it looked very convenient to me and of course you are going to have to work with it to get the desired look you want. That is common sense.

 

Then the UI is a bit cumbersome. Did you notice how the devs fumbled with moving the objects in the right position/direction from start?

 

One of the devs already stated he is not a decorator. I looked at the UI and to me it looks very easy to use but again until we get in there to try we don't know that.

 

One can argue some/many/most players suck at setting up nice layouts, I dare saying binding players hands (hooks) won't help them that much. What would help is:

• Letting other decorate strongholds (I know I did it in other games)
  
• Allowing players to save/reload layouts (cf Wildstar)
  
• Implement a real estate market
  

This list I agree with.

 

I would suggest that they add hooks to the furniture so you can add or move things around like a lamp, book, etc. and maybe a few hooks that you can use everywhere would help.

 

But in truth until we get in there and see what we can do we really don't know what we can do and all this complaining about this and that when we don't know for sure what we can do is a little pointless and furthermore they have made the system and there is a saying my friend taught me.

 

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

 

that maybe we need to use in this situation.

Edited July 13, 2014 by casi

[Deewe]

They have also said they know people would like the fleet chat so they could add it to the channel but frankly I could care less about the fleet chat. All that is on the fleet chat lately is chat I would prefer not to see anyway. I only go to the fleet when I have to go to the comm vendor. The language and the way chat has become lately on the fleet they did me a favor.

In MMO the need is first to see others toons then interact with them.

One of the purpose of this is to let players see others gear or combination of gear.

 

Chat channels can't answer that need and make not only players feel the world is alive but also drool at others equipment.

Considering you can essentially quick travel to your stronghold and then quick travel back to the location you were at seems very convenient.

Nor really because most of the issue will lie in what you can store in your legacy storage. Then and only then accessing it and managing it will be taken into account.

The people I know that have been wanting housing are very excited about this. Everyone seems to forget that just because some of us have had the free placement before and it is easy for us, doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. Don't give me the excuse well it is easy to learn, it's not. I spent 4 months on SWG helping people learn the free placement system there and quite a few were ready to quit because of it. So maybe we need to step back and consider those that have never had housing before.

SWG issue wasn't free item placement, it was the lack of a proper UI to do so.

There are always going to be people who don't like something in a game. They game is never going to please everyone all the time. I could care less about pvp but I don't complain when they add something or they change something in one of the classes to make it better for pvp. So this comment can be applied to anything in the game that someone doesn't like.

 

First, you don't know this for a fact and second I know for a fact my guild and my friends are excited and my guild leader is going to purchase a stronghold for the guild. We all intend to use our strongholds. And furthermore, the majority of players don't come to the forums and from what I have heard on my server most are thrilled and can't wait for the housing, hooks and all.

Although the current implementation does not answer the once again, supposedly, niche in a competitive way.

When I looked at the system, it looked very convenient to me and of course you are going to have to work with it to get the desired look you want. That is common sense.

I already see the devs struggling with it.

One of the devs already stated he is not a decorator. I looked at the UI and to me it looks very easy to use but again until we get in there to try we don't know that.

Easy but as already stated not intuitive.

 

For example one should know in which direction a slider is going to move or rotate an object just by looking at the UI and not by trying it.

I would suggest that they add hooks to the furniture so you can add or move things around like a lamp, book, etc. and maybe a few hooks that you can use everywhere would help.

 

But in truth until we get in there and see what we can do we really don't know what we can do and all this complaining about this and that when we don't know for sure what we can do is a little pointless and furthermore they have made the system and there is a saying my friend taught me.

Adding more hooks is just patching a system that's suboptimal and a bit cumbersome.

 

It's understandable the producer doesn't want to ditch all $$$ invested in the hook system. However topping it with an advanced edition mode and allowing others to tweak people strongholds, would really increase the appeal for everyone, especially considering a long term vision.

[Anaesha]

You can't say the holds hook system is cumbersome because You haven't actually gotten to use it first hand. That's like someone saying the M82A1 has a strong enough recoil to break your shoulder when in fact they've never fired one. Edited July 13, 2014 by Anaesha

[Deewe]

You can't call the holds hook system is cumbersome because You haven't actually gotten to use it first hand. That's like someone saying the M82A1 has a strong enough recoil to break your shoulder when in fact they've never fired one.

Some can, at least IF nothing changes from the actual implementation.

 

in this case:

• UI not intuitive enough: don't know in which direction sliders items moves or rotates
  
• Changing hooks layout for an area dismiss all items
  
• No furniture icon preview in the listing
  
• Being obliged to go trough menus and sub-menus to access components
  
• Hooks categories that restrict the type of items allowed in it
  

 

Also, for example if you already have a nice layout and want to add a specific piece, you might end with being obliged to review the whole layout as your new acquisition might oblige you to change your hook layout.

 

Versus others games:

1. Pickup an object in the inventory
   
2. Drop it
   
3. Move it.
   
4. Done
   

Edited July 14, 2014 by Deewe

[ScarletBlaze]

In MMO the need is first to see others toons then interact with them.

One of the purpose of this is to let players see others gear or combination of gear.

 

Chat channels can't answer that need and make not only players feel the world is alive but also drool at others equipment.

You don't impress me with what your gear is or what kind of gear you are wearing. To me that is not that important. What impresses me is how a person interacts and treats others.

Edited July 13, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[Anaesha]

Some of can, at least IF nothing changes from the actual implementation.

 

in this case:

• UI not intuitive enough: don't know in which direction sliders items moves or rotates
  
• Changing hooks layout for an area dismiss all items
  
• No furniture icon preview in the listing
  
• Being obliged to go trough menus and sub-menus to access components
  
• Hooks categories that restrict the type of items allowed in it
  

 

Also, for example if you already have a nice layout and want to add a specific piece, you might end with being obliged to review the whole layout as your new acquisition might oblige you to change your hook layout.

 

Versus others games:

1. Pickup an object in the inventory
   
2. Drop it
   
3. Move it.
   
4. Done
   

 

Soooooo basically you don't like it because there is a slight learning curve to using it and you don't want to take the time to figure it out?

 

Fair Enough. I actually prefer a system where I have to do some work and spend time learning it kinda like GSF is completely different from Space Missions.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Anaesha

[Deewe]

You don't impress me with what your gear is or what kind of gear you are wearing. To me that is not that important. What impresses me is how a person interacts and treats others.

While some have a huge ePeen some don't

 

It's only part of the equation but if you ever wondered why in 2014 we can:

• Browse Ebay remotely
  
• Send emails remotely
  
• Have mail packages being picked up and dropped at our house or by others
  

 

And none of the above in a Sci-Fi game that can do light travel?

 

I'll tell you why: it's so you see others characters around you and especially their gear.

 

There was a long explanation by Blizzard devs on that some time ago, along why travel was slow to make people feel the world is big. I don't remember though if I heard that at a developer's conference or on the forums.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Deewe

[errant_knight]

Not sure what this has to do with decorating, but being a douche doesn't lessen the accomplishment of full 186 if one knows what it took to get there. Two separate things, really.

[Deewe]

Soooooo basically you don't like it because there is a slight learning curve to using it and you don't want to take the time to figure it out?

 

Fair Enough. I actually prefer a system where I have to do some work and spend time learning it kinda like GSF is completely different from Space Missions.

Funny how a system that is supposedly simpler than a free placement one is now fine if it needs a learning curve.

 

You are totally ruining the reason to have hooks in first place.

[Anaesha]

Funny how a system that is supposedly simpler than a free placement one is now fine if it needs a learning curve.

 

You are totally ruining the reason to have hooks in first place.

 

The learning curve is in the UI more then in the hooks themselves but just from watching the live streams I already have a pretty good idea how the UI works and shouldn't have any trouble placing decorations in my stronghold(s) come August 19th.

 

I've been in games with free placement and even Pseudo free placement and in my experience I find them to be more annoying to deal with then ones that utilize a hook system.

 

To each their own in this case some of us prefer hooks over free placement and visa versa.

[Deewe]

To each their own in this case some of us prefer hooks over free placement and visa versa.

Now you are speaking

 

Totally agree with that, my point is more that in the long term free placement is a must to have.

Because at some point even people who aren't initially that much into housing decoration might discover a liking to that and would then eventually want more of it.

 

Then as we all know, players attracted by housing are more looking after advanced features.

[ArielaKnight]

Regarding the hooks, I like the system. I played SWG so yes I know what free placement but this system looks very good and frankly no one knows what can be done (except not turning a table over ...) until we get in there to use it.

 

I plan on using my stronghold and the only thing I wish is that they would give us an extra gold key so I could give one to my boyfriend so he can decorate as well.

 

People are going to have different things they like and we will have to accept the fact that not everyone likes free placement, no matter how much you want to insist that everyone will. This is the system we have and we will need to learn to work with the system or constantly complain that I didn't get my way.

[Aries_cz]

Now you are speaking

 

Totally agree with that, my point is more that in the long term free placement is a must to have.

Because at some point even people who aren't initially that much into housing decoration might discover a liking to that and would then eventually want more of it.

 

Then as we all know, players attracted by housing are more looking after advanced features.

 

Have you perhaps considered that maybe Bw is trying to make the housing available and fun to use to everyone? Niche groups usually come from the fact that something is very specific or difficult to play. For example, EVE is considered a very much niche game, because it caters to people who get aroused by spreadsheets.

[Infernixx]

Funny how a system that is supposedly simpler than a free placement one is now fine if it needs a learning curve.

 

You are totally ruining the reason to have hooks in first place.

 

Getting out of bed without breaking your neck required a learning curve at one point.

 

Everything has a learning curve.

 

However, creating something with a less stressful and more intuitive learning curve is better than something with a steep learning curve and no structure whatsoever.

 

In short, this system will be easier to learn and master than a Free Placement system and provides a bit of structure and framework for those who need it. But, you 'knew' all of that already, didn't you? You just saw an opportunity to snark a bit.

[errant_knight]

omg, folks! 55 pages of flail for something no one has even tried yet? That's beyond ridiculous.

[Aries_cz]

omg, folks! 55 pages of flail for something no one has even tried yet? That's beyond ridiculous.

If I didn't know better, I would assume you have to be new to these forums...

[errant_knight]

If I didn't know better, I would assume you have to be new to these forums...

 

Lol, yeah, I know, but sometimes the level of unnecessary panic still has the capacity to astonish, lol.

[Xakthul]

The ammount of wiggleroom didn't strike me as all that fantastic, and I miss being able to place items on their side, or on top of other items. Other than that, it looks pretty flexible. I just hope they don't try to limit us even further.

 

I THINK we can still place items on top of each other....

[Anaesha]

I THINK we can still place items on top of each other....

 

no we can't. You can place a rug down using a special hook then place something on top of that using a normal hood but nothing else.