Obviousenuendo Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Madness sins in pvp aren't all that amazing. tried the spec out just now, numbers are higher than before, and you live longer, but that's not saying much since compared to before these things practically didn't exist. the spec still doesn't get kills, unlike deception still a force starved spec. not as bad as before, but still it's a troublesome thing in long fights, assuming you don't die, which you will. survivability is..."better" but you still die pretty fast even with your dots healing you full force. the rotation is simple but it requires setup and it's just..clunky, between keeping your 3 dots focused on one target (because you need to melee your discharged target) you can't really swap targets, or rather if you do, you won't accomplish anything, but you also have to throw out that aoe field every time its up.. into multiple enemies, while focusing your target that's running and jumping like it's got its head cut off, using everything is sequence, and if you do anything out of order, you're screwed. it's just such a pain between striking and casting and using everything right, unlike deception. recklessness, discharge slash slash, shock maul maul electrocute slash shock discharge force slow etc. so yeah, deception is still the way to go, it actually brings people's hp down so they die, you have reliable cc control, and it just feels right, you burst each target down one by one, madness tries to do the same thing but with relying on sequenceal proc orderal use. Edited June 18, 2014 by Obviousenuendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousenuendo Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 Don't mistake me though, the spec is definitely viable now, pve especially, and you 'could' make it work in pvp, as opposed to before, but you really want the most from your assassin/shadow, and just dominate your competition, deception is the way to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyboyW Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 With respect, I think you are confusing the potential of each spec with it's ease of play. Good players won't have a problem managing 3 dots and maintaining melee up time on their target. Others may indeed find it easier to go Deception and alternate between maul and auto-attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousenuendo Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) With respect, I think you are confusing the potential of each spec with it's ease of play. Good players won't have a problem managing 3 dots and maintaining melee up time on their target. Others may indeed find it easier to go Deception and alternate between maul and auto-attack. except madness was always told to be the, "Rotation is so mind-numbly boring, deception is harder to understand and has a more complicated rotation" by every single assassin player I've talked to ever. I dunno, I'm just going by the things I hear and reminding people of the other side of that talk. I don't like madness anymore than before but I will take the reduced casts on whirlwind and PW, makes deception even better. Edited June 18, 2014 by Obviousenuendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyboyW Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I don't want to get into an argument but, again, I don't think boring rotations is a factor in the "hype" either (not that I can see how you can think the rotation is both too complex AND boring at the same time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 "Rotation is so mind-numbly boring, deception is harder to understand and has a more complicated rotation" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtanios Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Just because you don't know how to play a spec right doesn't mean its less viable then the one your potbelly playing for a long time. You really cant expect to just re-roll to an entire different spec and start playing it as a pro. I play madness myself and been playing it pre 2.8. The spec did need the buffs it got very bad, but the way it is right now i'm loving every second of playing it. I guess for some reason i can manage all my dots, while also dotting everyone else around me. Madness has just as many stuns and defensive cooldowns now deception has. Our burst has some rampup time or whatever its called, but ones you get the rotation going its bye bye. I've played deception for a long time and yes you can kill someone very vast if everything crits, but if nothing crits your left there with your ballz hanging between your legs. Both spec's are very strong, it really just depends on your playstyle. I see no reason why a madness Assassin cant be just as good as a deception Assassin. The thing i love about madness is casters have a much harder time kiting you because of your ranged abilities and root, but on the other hand you can kite melee classes with those same abilities.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousenuendo Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 What I was trying to say with this thread was, don't believe the fact that people are trying to tell you than madness is now the be-all, end-all spec to complete the game and everything is infieror to it watch me QQ how OP it is and everything else is counterable except madness etc. etc. because that's not the case. It has improved, but that's about it, pyro is still a much more menacing spec in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djcetra Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 They're viable but they're nothing for anyone to be celebrating about, prior they weren't viable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNahash Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 They're viable but they're nothing for anyone to be celebrating about, prior they weren't viable at all. So...good? Wasn't that supposed to be the point? Making them viable I mean? Why does it always have to go from terrible to OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatMcMuffins Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Just fix Lightning Burns from Creeping Terror from keeping both the sin and the target in combat forever (even after death of the sin) and from stopping caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Lol i see madness sin all over the place and there still go squish from a deception sin point of view i hit 4 buttons there dead 1v1. With me still having 3/4 health before they can even take 1/4 health from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOULCASTER Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I loved the madness changes. But I felt its MORE action starved now than before, because of the new dispatch ability mechanic used at any health range. I'd find many times where I had that proc up but didn't have the action to use it right away. Definitely requires some getting used to, but it is a solid, viable spec now. It's basically a lot like balance sage. Can put up numbers, and do a ton of damage. But it lacks real on demand punch at times. But that's ok. Not every single spec in the game should have that. This is as constant dps spec, and that's a good thing. All too often people like one great aspect of one tree or class, and then they want that for all of the trees and/or classes. And that shouldn't be the case. Madness is in a good spot right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOULCASTER Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Lol i see madness sin all over the place and there still go squish from a deception sin point of view i hit 4 buttons there dead 1v1. With me still having 3/4 health before they can even take 1/4 health from me. Yeah like all DoT specs in game, they have a ramp-up time. They have to spend a few GCDs applying the dots and getting the procs lined up where deception is just a flurry of hard hitting attacks. That's ok. 2 different specs, 2 different play styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP_Legatus Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So...good? Wasn't that supposed to be the point? Making them viable I mean? Why does it always have to go from terrible to OP? Well sure, it's best to just make them good but OP works too. I'm not convinced they are op yet. Regardless though, the bigger issue is that it doesn't usually take 2 years to fix this kind of problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) With me still having 3/4 health before they can even take 1/4 health from me. I recommend you edit this because I'm pretty sure this isn't what you where trying to say. If it is what you where trying to say then my response is "No ****!" Edited June 19, 2014 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP_Legatus Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) I haven't had any problems fighting deception sins so far as madness yet. I generally do stuff until they pop shroud, survive long enough to apply my rotation then run and hide until they die. It's worked pretty well so far. Mostly just kiting and outlasting them. Edited June 19, 2014 by JP_Legatus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haystak Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) So...good? Wasn't that supposed to be the point? Making them viable I mean? Why does it always have to go from terrible to OP? Because their are still a good number of classes that arent viable for ranked. So jealousy could be a factor. Also another one might be the idea that all classes are entitled to only one viable spec at a time, and now that shadows have both dps specs being viable, atleast for reg stomping, they feel the need to cry for nerfs. i dont endorse any nerfs, but those seem to be the bigger factors for crying for nerfs right now Will say this though, the "i killed the sin, now its time to suck dots for however long before I can get out of stealth, is probably one of the more broken things done for the class. Edited June 19, 2014 by Haystak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodigyqnz Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Madness sins in pvp aren't all that amazing. tried the spec out just now, numbers are higher than before, and you live longer, but that's not saying much since compared to before these things practically didn't exist. the spec still doesn't get kills, unlike deception still a force starved spec. not as bad as before, but still it's a troublesome thing in long fights, assuming you don't die, which you will. survivability is..."better" but you still die pretty fast even with your dots healing you full force. the rotation is simple but it requires setup and it's just..clunky, between keeping your 3 dots focused on one target (because you need to melee your discharged target) you can't really swap targets, or rather if you do, you won't accomplish anything, but you also have to throw out that aoe field every time its up.. into multiple enemies, while focusing your target that's running and jumping like it's got its head cut off, using everything is sequence, and if you do anything out of order, you're screwed. it's just such a pain between striking and casting and using everything right, unlike deception. recklessness, discharge slash slash, shock maul maul electrocute slash shock discharge force slow etc. so yeah, deception is still the way to go, it actually brings people's hp down so they die, you have reliable cc control, and it just feels right, you burst each target down one by one, madness tries to do the same thing but with relying on sequenceal proc orderal use. Please don't dispense falsehoods about a spec you clearly haven't mastered. If you don't like the spec, that is fine. If it is not for you that too is fine. But don't pop up on forums downing it and complaining about it. I personally have played either full madness or a madness hybrid variation (23/1/17 old school status) long before 2.X anything It wasn't gimped then.. and it certainly isn't now. If you can control deception better great. Some people have mastered the class and can do all three equally and are able to judge the class as a whole not by not being able to use a spec. Madness is beyond viable. Before 2.8 I consistently got 900-1000 dps with 0-2 deaths tops, most objectives, and average between 2-4 solo kills a game without seeking them, even dropping people in main fight so quick before anyone could even touch them . Now with the changes.. i almost never run out of force and I always have a powerful ability ready and waiting to be used on cooldown there is hardly any downtime.. I average 1300+dps now. Myself and my guildie who plays a madness sin also pop out million damage games like candy. Blow people up in groups 2v5 etc. In the shadow/sin forums there are many videos of madness destroying people before patch. Its quite viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twithep Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I'm a fairly terrible sin, first match i had 20 killing blows, next person in that wz had 8. I only did 1.1k dps while another madness sin had 2k, but he had 3 killing blows. Next match was not that good but not far away. Madness sins are definitely able to kill things now, it's not deception but it can approach 3k sustained dmg singletarget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djcetra Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So...good? Wasn't that supposed to be the point? Making them viable I mean? Why does it always have to go from terrible to OP? They're not OP, they're the worst spec for assassins in WZ unless you think spamming for top dmg on scoreboards wins games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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