Healers, what do you expect from your Tank?

[Xtremophile]

I wonder if there's a certain healer class that pairs best with each tank class (or if Scoundrel/Operative is just better than everyone, ha)

 

Tank/healer cross balance is definitely an interesting realm to explore. I wish I had a good way to represent this in a solid, rigorous statistical framework…

 

As a dedicated Tank, I'd love to learn the healer POV.

 

What do you want from tanks in the party?

What do you expect them to do or don't do?

What do you want them to know beforehand?

 

Especially, for different classes. For example, what do you expect from a Guardian tank if you are currently playing a Sage healer, etc...

 

Let this be the Tank - Healer communication thread.

 

EDIT: Click As a Tank, what do you expect from healers? to see the other side

Edited May 27, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Maldorans]

I have one of each advanced class at 55. I suppose I main an Operative in medicine spec, but I generally don't have a main now and jump on whatevers needed in an Op. I find I no longer do any flashpoints.

 

(I only play Emp, so I'm not sure of all the class and advanced class names on rep side.)

 

First up, what I expect a tank to do. This one is extremely simple, maintain a good pace and hold aggro on all mobs. If you can't do that, make sure you are at the very least picking up any mobs attacking the healers. DPS can usually handle their own a bit longer. When a healers being hit, it's slower to heal and they have to spend time healing themselves. Never put guard on a healer. Healers don't steal aggro. If a healer is being attacked, then no one has been hitting the mob attacking them. I put dps in the same section here. Any dps worth his salt would instantly switch targets t a mob attackin a healer to take the aggro.

 

What do I want a tank to know? Everything. That may seem extreme, but important. Any new tank I would always adv to run an instance as a dps to learn the instance. Alternatively, run it with a guild who won't get angry at your mistakes. Tanks drive the pace and order of an instance, so should have prior knowledge of what to expect.

 

How should tanks play? By being talkative. If you want a pull to go a certain way, explain that or don't get upset if the DPS don't follow the masterplan that resides only in your head.

 

On each tank I have used Operative, Merc and Sorc heals and it makes no difference really. The tanks however do.

 

Juggernauts - Simply they greatest main tanks in the game. They take damage much slower, the damage rarely spikes and they have a ton of 'holy crap I'm gonna die' buttons. I prefer all my main tanks to be Jugg. In an op situation the OT is preferably an Assassin for the utility they bring. It can actually get a bit boring with a jugg tank, I end up dps'ing a fair bit more than usual.

 

Powertechs - Decent tanks, not too spikey in damage. That's about all I can say on them. They're good. Yet, they don't hold aggro as well as the other two from what I've seen. Could have be down to those individual players though.

 

Assassins - Awful main tanks (from an Operation perspective). The damage is very spikey. They go from full to almost nothing very quickly and they appear quite difficult to keep up at times.Yet, they are excellent off tanks and I prefer them to Powertechs for this job. Assassins shelter, stealth rez and great mobility means they bring a lot to a Ops group utility. Aggro holding is definitely the best of all three. They just don't lose aggro.

 

As for tank healer balance, there is none. A good tank can have any good healer behind them and make a good team. But from a personal perspective, on all three healers, I like to know the main tank is a Juggernaut. Feels like the safe bet.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Maldorans

[Xtremophile]

Thanks for the inclusive post, my friend. It's the most appreciated.

 

* First up, what I expect a tank to do. This one is extremely simple, maintain a good pace and hold aggro on all mobs. If you can't do that, make sure you are at the very least picking up any mobs attacking the healers.

 

I have a 55 Guardian as a main, also a low level Jugg waiting to be capped. I'm fairly a good tank but still don't have the knowledge of all raids, for I am mainly a PVP tank.

 

Sometimes, in progression raids or simply in a new (for me) FP/OP, for a moment I lose all the aggro because of an unexpected CC / knockback / etc from bosses.

 

So, as a healer, what is the most irritating thing to happen when a tank loses all the aggro? I mean, in Healer's POV, what is the most dangerous thing taht could happen in your screen? [Of course the answer is "a wipe", but I'm asking the event that precedes the wipe) I'm asking this to understand what my past healers have been through when the mobs ditch the leash and attack everyone randomly. So that I can recover faster and more in favor of my healer.

 

Never put guard on a healer. Healers don't steal aggro. If a healer is being attacked, then no one has been hitting the mob attacking them.

 

Can we discuss a bit more? Some says this, while others think Guard is for situational tacs. So, what if I put a Guard on DPS and lost aggro to the healer? I can swap Guard fast but in the meantime, healer may die.

 

What do I want a tank to know? Everything. That may seem extreme, but important. Any new tank I would always adv to run an instance as a dps to learn the instance. Alternatively, run it with a guild who won't get angry at your mistakes. Tanks drive the pace and order of an instance, so should have prior knowledge of what to expect.

 

This is noted. Extremely useful advice.

 

How should tanks play?

By being talkative. If you want a pull to go a certain way, explain that or don't get upset if the DPS don't follow the masterplan that resides only in your head.

 

Noted, too. I mostly go with the DPS' plan if they know better than me, and sometimes just for the sake of learning a new strategy.

 

Powertechs - Decent tanks, not too spikey in damage. That's about all I can say on them. They're good. Yet, they don't hold aggro as well as the other two from what I've seen. Could have be down to those individual players though.

 

Is it because the players you have played with didn't know how to hold aggro on all mobs, or the class/spec isn't meant for it? Sorry for noob question, but i never played PT/Commando tank. That's my 3rd priority after Guardian/Juggernaut and Shadow tanks.

 

As for tank healer balance, there is none. A good tank can have any good healer behind them and make a good team. But from a personal perspective, on all three healers, I like to know the main tank is a Juggernaut. Feels like the safe bet.

 

Good to know.

 

Thanks, again for all the explicative post.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Maldorans]

So the gaurd question.

 

First of all the tooltip is confusing. There is no damage transfer in PVE, it's a PVP only mechanic. The rest is damage reduction and threat drop.

 

Healers can never in a million years steal aggro from any players who is attacking a mob. Damage to a mob has higher threat than the general threat given off to all mobs via heals. When a healer heals, it increases their aggro for all mobs in range. So, if a mob is not being hit, the default aggro will always be the healer. Simply spank on every mob at least once and the healer should take no aggro.

 

But healer aggro is also a DPS problem. A tank should be more worried about keeping the strongest, hardest hitting mob on them and the DPS should be dealing with the weak, down in two hits mobs.

 

DPS are aggro whores. They also, for the most part, lack any knowledge on their own threat and how to manage it. When I play my tank, I see which DPS pulls aggro and I slap my gaurd on them. Otherwise, I run with no guard at all.

 

In specific fights in operations where there is consistent raid damage, I may guard the healer for the damage reduction to help them keep themselves up. But these fights are few and far between.

 

 

 

 

When a tank losses the plot and mobs are everywhere? You have a single job. Don't try and grab them all, just go to the healer and get whatever is attacking them off them. Decent DPS should be able to grab a few and mow them down, or hold them till you reagin controll. The neame of the game is protect the healers, they keep everyone alive. Dead healer = dead group. Your class I believe has intercede. I would always have that bound to a key and when it all falls apart, intercede the healer. Maybe it's a different name on rep side, thats the talent that jumps you to the freindly target and immediately drops their aggro.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Maldorans

[Maldorans]

I just wanted to add this, although it may be veering slightly from the topic, but if I was forming an ideal OP's group 16 man......

 

 

I would have a Juggernaut main tank and an Assassin off tank. I would have an Operative and Merc healer along with two Sorc healers. A good mix of some Mara melee DPS and some Merc and Sniper ranged DPS.

[Xtremophile]

Healers can never in a million years steal aggro from any players who is attacking a mob. Damage to a mob has higher threat than the general threat given off to all mobs via heals. When a healer heals, it increases their aggro for all mobs in range. So, if a mob is not being hit, the default aggro will always be the healer. Simply spank on every mob at least once and the healer should take no aggro.

 

So, it's the tanks job. Gotcha!

 

When a tank losses the plot and mobs are everywhere? You have a single job. Don't try and grab them all, just go to the healer and get whatever is attacking them off them.

 

So, having healer on the focus helps, as I do always. Also, Intercede/Guardian Leap is on keybind on "C" key so that I can reach it quickly.

 

Thanks, man. You were excessively helpful to me for understanding healers. I hope this helps others as well.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Gardimuer]

Sometimes, in progression raids or simply in a new (for me) FP/OP, for a moment I lose all the aggro because of an unexpected CC / knockback / etc from bosses.

 

So, as a healer, what is the most irritating thing to happen when a tank loses all the aggro? I mean, in Healer's POV, what is the most dangerous thing taht could be happen in your screen? [Of course the answer is "a wipe", but I'm asking the event that precedes the wipe) I'm asking this to understand what my past healers have been through when the mobs ditch the leash and attack everyone randomly. So that I can recover faster and more in favor of my healer.

 

I don't usually think about differences in annoyance after a tank loses agro. The problem is that he/she lost it at all, not what happens after. But generally, if you are a Jug tank I don't expect you to go running around the room trying to pick up every mob that ran away. As long as you hold the strongest ones to yourself, then I can do damage control to compensate. However, you do have some useful CCs and knockbacks that you could use to help out.

 

1) You can use Force Push to move your target to be closer to the rest of the enemies. This could put you within melee range of all enemies and would make it much easier for you to hold agro with AoE attacks.

2) If you see a mob turning away from you, you could Force Choke it to buy time.

3) You could save your Saber Throw or taunt for when you see an enemy getting out of your melee range, that way you can regain agro on it quickly.

4) Intercede could also be useful, as Maldorans said. But you have to be sure that jumping to the healer isn't going to point an enemy's AoE at the group or steal precious seconds of time during which the DPS might pull agro on other things you previously had under control. It would be a good idea to only intercede when you have Force Leap off cooldown so you can jump right back at the enemies.

 

Over all, I would say the most important task for any tank is to control the positioning of the mobs at the start of a fight.

 

For instance, lets say you are about to pull a group of enemies. This group is made up of 2 ranged enemies and 2 melee enemies which are spread out from eachother. You could run up to one ranged enemy, Force Push it towards the other, then Force Leap after it, immediately followed by Smash to get agro on both ranged and the 2 melee that have hopefully run up to you in the meantime.

 

If you are pulling a group of ranged enemies that can't be moved (like a pair of turrets), stay in melee range of one enemy and focus on it while using Saber Throw and your ranged taunt to hold the attention of the other.

 

Another trick in some situations is to tell your group that you want to "Line of Sight". Have the DPS and healers stand around a corner, then Saber Throw the mobs and run back around the corner. All the enemies will run to follow you and will be conveniently stacked up for you to hold agro with melee attacks.

[Nkya]

I've not big expectations specifically from healer to tank. More expectation would be from teamate to tank or to other teamate. Here is however a few points, some of them are minor ones.

 

* Aggro the most things you can. Ask for CC when relevant.

* Tanks should the mobs for the most conviniant place to limit the incoming damage and facilitate the DPS. Indirectly, They'll move the team. It's best then if the group is moved to ease the healing.

* Don't run away of the healers

* If a sage or a commando dumped an aoe heal on the ground and there is no inseritive to move and people's health isn't maxed: stop moving.

* Don't shield the healer (there is some exceptions, typically when you feel the dps or co-tank may be going to miss something)

* Shadows should dump their phase walk where the healers are likely going to be; using it to a mere teleport is bad.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Nkya

[johnbgood]

when it comes to FPs i just dont wanna have healing aggro. i will get angry when mobs are attacking me, even if it's the DPS's fault. as a plus dont run away from the healer and if i'm healing on my sage, make as much use of the healing circle as u can.

 

when it comes to OPs i wanna know everything that has happened, currently happens and will happen.

Edited May 28, 2014 by johnbgood

[moman]

Most key things are covered by the other posters.

 

What I notice in a lot of tanks is good degree of tweaky-ness. Yes, DPS are most notable for their tweak, but some for whatever reason, many tanks have a GO GO GO mentality and it can get annoying. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for busting through ops, since there is a time vs. reward factor, but why is a tank starting combat when I, the healer, am behind them and out of range? A few seconds does not hurt me, but as with any role, there is a certain rhythm that must be maintained. I like to save my CD's for emergencies, not for playing catch up.

 

I know I'm beating a dead horse with this, but adds on a healer is really annoying.

 

tl:dr general situational awareness, use radar, pan the camera behind you to make sure group is together.

[Xtremophile]

* Shadows should dump their phase walk where the healers are likely going to be; using it to a mere teleport is bad.

 

Thanks for the info. For people who wanna see this: Assasin's / Shadow's Shelter (in tank talent tree -oh, read the note under it.) Phase Walk Picture

 

______________________

EDIT from the Tank's Expectations:

i try to always have this down for my healers.... a lot of them have no idea what it is and run out even when i drop it right where they are standing for the buff...

Edited June 2, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Xtremophile]

1) You can use Force Push to move your target to be closer to the rest of the enemies. This could put you within melee range of all enemies and would make it much easier for you to hold agro with AoE attacks.

2) If you see a mob turning away from you, you could Force Choke it to buy time.

3) You could save your Saber Throw or taunt for when you see an enemy getting out of your melee range, that way you can regain agro on it quickly.

4) Intercede could also be useful, as Maldorans said. But you have to be sure that jumping to the healer isn't going to point an enemy's AoE at the group or steal precious seconds of time during which the DPS might pull agro on other things you previously had under control. It would be a good idea to only intercede when you have Force Leap off cooldown so you can jump right back at the enemies.

 

Thanks for the great tips. I asked that question solely to learn this kind of things. So that I (we) can recover quickly. Sometimes, my screen messes up, like, because of something (a wall maybe) at my back is too close, i can't see well. For this example, I found a way to recover quickly:

 

1) Click the healer's nick on group frames

2) Intercede / Guardian Leap

3) Quickly adjust your camera view

4) Go on

[Liquor]

What do you want from tanks in the party?

 

Keep up with me. Meaning there's places we can speed through I and others a little prep goes a long way.

 

What do you expect them to do or don't do?

 

Hold Agro. But DPS like to start out big. It's ok but that means I will go big early. Don't panic too much. We have ways to avoid it. Don't pull too many at once. CC can be a blessing so don't attack a marked tgt without asking.

 

 

What do you want them to know beforehand?

 

Check gear. See what I have and understan what I can and can not do. Helps to play my class. Get the inside scoop on being me.

[Xtremophile]

Quotes from Tank's side.

Cleansing debuffs is always a plus, of course.

Know who to cleanse first (it's not always the tank).

 

A list of cleansing abilities for new healers are:

(All gained at level 24)

 

Toxic Scan for Operatives

Triage for Scoundrels

 

Restoration for Sages

Expunge for Sorcerers

 

Cure for Mercenary

Field Aid for Commandos

 

My suggestion is using the Focus target (default keybind: Alt +F)

 

Edit: Sin/Vang changed to Sorc/Comm

Edited May 29, 2014 by Xtremophile

[space_mechanic]

Restoration for Sages

Expunge for Assassins

 

Cure for Mercenary

Field Aid for Vanguard

You probably know that Assassins and Vanguards are not healers

Thus,

Expunge for Sorcs

Field Aid for Commandos

Edited May 29, 2014 by space_mechanic

[Xtremophile]

You probably know that Assassins and Vanguards are not healers

Thus,

Expunge for Sorcs

Field Aid for Commandos

 

Of course, sorry for the confusion, I was checking 10 another posts as well by the time I typed that.

But it wouldn't hurt them to know they have a skill to cleanse debuffs.

 

____________

See what I have and understand what I can and can not do.

 

Can you open this one a bit. What is your main healer class and what are your capabilities in that class. Also your disadvantages, meaning what you "can't do's"?

Edited May 29, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Lorrimar]

You keep the mobs from beating on me & I'll keep the health bars full. At least pay some attention to my force bar & my location. If I am out of force or 80 yards behind you looting a body, charging into that next pack is a bad idea.

 

That is what I expect from a tank.

[Cleet_Xia]

I'll heal anyone who wants to try and tank.....so long as they ~

 

1) don't act like a jerk.

2) are actually specced for tanking.

3) are actually sporting gear with mitigation stats & a tanking offhand.

4) will make sure I'm actually present & within healing range before they make a boss pull.

5) will give me time to regen before a boss pull if I want it.

6) will taunt.

7) will use their DCD's for something ~ anything......really.

[Xtremophile]

At least pay some attention to my force bar & my location. If I am out of force or 80 yards behind you looting a body, charging into that next pack is a bad idea. .

 

Yeah! Nerdserking kills. I can't stress this enough.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Xtremophile]

7) will use their DCD's for something ~ anything......really.

 

FYI from a tank: We use DCDs only we have to so it means low life (<35%) or danger so it depends on healer. If I speak for myself, I don't mind popping out 1-2 DCDs in a boss fight, but if the healer cant keep up with me and if I spent all my DCDs and in need of attention, that usually means, well, lets say a healer in bad performance.

 

This is from the Tank's Thread:

 

- unless they are new to the content, I expect them to keep everyone alive and to keep me above 60% so I don't have to use DCDs unnecessarily.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Xtremophile

[Joel_Eisenlipz]

A note on the DCD's and adrenals idea...

Both tanks and healers should already know when the pain is coming and adjust accordingly.

 

When I see a Sorc pre-bubble and then meditate right before a pull, I smile.

When I see a Jugg safely use their AoE taunt for the Sonic Wall perk, I smile.

When I see any DPS coordinate self-cleanses and/or Sniper shields, I smile.

.

[tacito]

A little remark from the tank side of things: Yes, in a flashpoint, no healer should ever need me to use a cooldown. But if I know I'm running into a big pack, I just pop an "unneeded" cooldown proactively. If I can make the healer's life easier, why wouldn't I!

 

Some tanks feel like using cooldowns on trash pulls makes them look bad or anything. If you find a tank taking a lot of damage on trash and completely manageable amounts on bosses, just talk to them. Maybe they just didn't look at your gear and run through the flashpoint in autopilot. Especially guardians and shadows have enough cooldowns on low enough timers to basically use one on every big trash pull without running out of cooldowns in a bossfight afterwards.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

FYI from a tank: We use DCDs only we have to so it means low life (<35%) or danger so it depends on healer. If I speak for myself, I don't mind popping out 1-2 DCDs in a boss fight, but if the healer cant keep up with me and if I spent all my DCDs and in need of attention, that usually means, well, lets say a healer in bad performance.

 

This is from the Tank's Thread:

 

Uhhh. Not sure what kind of tank you are, but I specifically use my DCDs to prevent that situation. As a Guardian tank, IMO the only emergency cooldown is Enure. That's it. Everything else has to be used proactively to prevent the need for healers to have an aneurysm. I would argue that if you burnt all your cooldowns and the healer still can't keep up, you misused your cooldowns. This is what differentiates a tank from a good tank, controlling the situation and one's own damage intake. If the healer can't keep up, they're either awful (you've probably been killed by trash already) or you just can't take the hits.

[Cleet_Xia]

A little remark from the tank side of things: Yes, in a flashpoint, no healer should ever need me to use a cooldown. But if I know I'm running into a big pack, I just pop an "unneeded" cooldown proactively. If I can make the healer's life easier, why wouldn't I!

 

Uhhh. Not sure what kind of tank you are, but I specifically use my DCDs to prevent that situation. As a Guardian tank, IMO the only emergency cooldown is Enure. That's it. Everything else has to be used proactively to prevent the need for healers to have an aneurysm. I would argue that if you burnt all your cooldowns and the healer still can't keep up, you misused your cooldowns. This is what differentiates a tank from a good tank, controlling the situation and one's own damage intake. If the healer can't keep up, they're either awful (you've probably been killed by trash already) or you just can't take the hits.

 

These are examples of the attitude I want as healer. I want a tank who is a team player.

 

Tank DCD's are usually only needed by tanks during progression runs & any healer that is geared for the content should be able to just heal through the worst of it without them. It's strictly a QoL issue for healers. It's more enjoyable to heal tanks that use their DCD's even if they don't need to.

 

But too many times "I only use my DCD's when I get below 60%" tanslates into them never getting used at all ~ or tanks being accustomed to not using them, and then failing to use them when something unexpected happens. The average tank uses their DCD's. I was speaking to the exceptions out there that don't.

[Xtremophile]

Uhhh. Not sure what kind of tank you are, but I specifically use my DCDs to prevent that situation. As a Guardian tank, IMO the only emergency cooldown is Enure. That's it. Everything else has to be used proactively to prevent the need for healers to have an aneurysm. I would argue that if you burnt all your cooldowns and the healer still can't keep up, you misused your cooldowns. This is what differentiates a tank from a good tank, controlling the situation and one's own damage intake. If the healer can't keep up, they're either awful (you've probably been killed by trash already) or you just can't take the hits.

 

That is because I'm slightly undergeared Guardian tank, due to leveling alts.

 

But I meant this: Tanks have to deal with controlling the environment as you said, so we need our minds focused on the right thing at the right time for there're many things to direct attention. If I ever have to use my DCDs pre-big hits (like un-interruptible big damage skills of bosses) to counter them, that means mostly healer can't keep up. And there is a spectrum of reasons rather than 2-sided line.

 

- Tank may be undergeared which means both easier (low hp fills fast) and harder (low mit. causes spikes) to heal at the same time

- Tank may not has enough mitigation values in current state but can save with DCDs in the right time

- Tank may not hold aggro enough (which this is not an issue for me)

 

- Healer may be undergeared but is a good healer which means low healing outcome

- Healer may not know when to use appropriate heal types (DoT or burst or middle value heals) but is ok rather than awful

- 1 or more Dps may need heal as well due to an AOE attack, at the same time when Tank's DCDs are in CD.

 

It's more enjoyable to heal tanks that use their DCD's even if they don't need to.

 

But too many times "I only use my DCD's when I get below 60%" tanslates into them never getting used at all ~ or tanks being accustomed to not using them, and then failing to use them when something unexpected happens. The average tank uses their DCD's. I was speaking to the exceptions out there that don't.

 

I know and am agreeing with you, although you should consider that they have cooldowns so we need them in the "right time" among other things. A good healer doesnt allow their tanks to pop DCDs "wastefully=wipefully"; in return tanks can hold aggro well. It's a team effort after all. Tanks and healers serve each other.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Xtremophile