Assassin / Shadow Top 3 Answers

[Jiminison]

Besides I am not saying implement all my Ideas ,I am just throwing out some potential ways to make us a bit better.

[Aelanis]

So how high up in this so called healing tree can you go if you spec full tank ,you may want to look into that.

I may listen to xinika but not pve master KBN. Plus making us harder too kill would make us "unstoppable". I am not asking for a 50% or even 25% boost in damage just a little boost. life pools have risen our damage has not (gear stats are not enough) while other classes ability damage has risen. My experience with self heals was more enjoyable than DR and there are plenty of us who feel this way so when DR numbers are thrown around showing a positive outcome over self heals it flies in the face of my personal experience and means nothing to me.

 

You want self heals back, I get it. That doesn't change that it's not happening. If you want a self-heals spec, then trying to pick a tank to do so is not going to work out so well for you in this game. Health pools in PVP haven't risen dramatically (maybe since the initial release of 2.0, but look at the increase in PVE health pools in comparison, and you'll see it's really not that bad). Even a 25% damage boost is overkill in response to a ~10% increase in DPS and healer health pools. Now, ignoring the fact that a 25% damage boost would be over the top, much less a 50%, the point of a tank is to be able to survive hits and reduce incoming damage. Increasing our damage reduction to the point where a Marauder with Cloak of Pain going is no longer almost as survivable as we are as tanks is a pretty good start, and will hardly make us "unstoppable killing machines". And as long as we don't have both excellent survivability and excellent damage, we won't be.

 

Now, maybe if you'd actually read what people like KBN said, instead of reading what you want to, you'd realize that he actually said that in certain situations, losing self heals was a nerf. It just so happens that we're still not resilient enough front line tanks to take advantage of where the DR was a buff in PVP, and so you only get to see the nerf.

 

Hey Aelanis Ill make a toon on your sever you spec your shadow 36 into kinetic and I want to see you face off 1v1 against a similar geared sorc hybrid...I mean this whole heartedly .......oh wait your on a pve server. So tell me of your great victories over this new version of sorc. please! (l2p bah)

 

Actually, I have. He was in an Obroan/Berserker mix, I was in full PVE gear, and I still got him to ~1/2 health. And I play on a PVE server because I don't want to get ganked while leveling up, not because I'm adverse to PVP. A lot of people feel that way. While we may not have the best PVPers in the game, the game is hardly competitive in terms of PVP. Even ask Xinika, who you seem to be willing to listen to.

[Xinika]

My only regret is that I felt like the Madness PvP questioned was answered beforehand and now Darkness' PvP survivability is undeniably low as a full fledged tank. I just hope it won't be another year before that issue is sorted out.

 

So how high up in this so called healing tree can you go if you spec full tank ,you may want to look into that.

I may listen to xinika but not pve master KBN. Plus making us harder too kill would make us "unstoppable". I am not asking for a 50% or even 25% boost in damage just a little boost. life pools have risen our damage has not (gear stats are not enough) while other classes ability damage has risen. My experience with self heals was more enjoyable than DR and there are plenty of us who feel this way so when DR numbers are thrown around showing a positive outcome over self heals it flies in the face of my personal experience and means nothing to me.

The damage KC puts out is enough. The problem is, it doesn't survive long enough to properly upkeep the damage in conjunction to its DR boosts (which can be interrupted and or shut down) If we were able to actually keep up a bit longer without having to run or play super defensively, then naturally, you will see what KC is capable of damage wise in the longrun.

 

For example: Before the change to self heals, it was very possible to 1v1 Infiltration Shadows as KC with over 75% of your HP pool left. Sometimes you'd frankly just maul them down with your damage output but back then you could actually stay alive long enough to get said damage out.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Xinika

[sithBracer]

2) Sounds like a l2p issue against hybrid sorcs.

 

Honestly that does sound a bit harsh. There are very few cases when a full tank can beat a healer 1v1, tanks just don't have enough burst and healers will wear them down (scissors cuts paper). At this point skank healers can heal at around 80% of what a full healer can do and have much more survivability, so saying it is a L2P issue kind coming off as rude.

 

That being said, what occurred is exactly what should have occurred given the way the specs are lined up now. Damage should not be increased for tanks, and even if it was, it would not make a difference. Beating a skank would require pretty high dps level damage and giving that to a full tank is pretty ridiculous.

Edited May 20, 2014 by sithBracer

[Xinika]

Honestly that does sound a bit harsh. There are very few cases when a full tank can beat a healer 1v1, tanks just don't have enough burst and healers will wear them down (scissors cuts paper). At this point skank healers can heal at around 80% of what a full healer can do and have much more survivability, so saying it is a L2P issue kind of shows you have very little experience in PvP and are just coming off as rude.

 

That being said, what occurred is exactly what should have occurred given the way the specs are lined up now. Damage should not be increased for tanks, and even if it was, it would not make a difference. Beating a skank would require pretty high dps level damage and giving that to a full tank is pretty ridiculous.

Also nothing should be balanced around 1v1 either and if they wish to play a hybrid spec then one should do so too if one cares that much about a simple duel. We do have hybrid specs which perform quite well against skank builds. As far as full tank goes, I'm less concerned about 1v1 and more concerned about what it is failing to achieve: Tanking.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Xinika

[Jiminison]

You want self heals back, I get it. That doesn't change that it's not happening. If you want a self-heals spec, then trying to pick a tank to do so is not going to work out so well for you in this game. Health pools in PVP haven't risen dramatically (maybe since the initial release of 2.0, but look at the increase in PVE health pools in comparison, and you'll see it's really not that bad). Even a 25% damage boost is overkill in response to a ~10% increase in DPS and healer health pools. Now, ignoring the fact that a 25% damage boost would be over the top, much less a 50%, the point of a tank is to be able to survive hits and reduce incoming damage. Increasing our damage reduction to the point where a Marauder with Cloak of Pain going is no longer almost as survivable as we are as tanks is a pretty good start, and will hardly make us "unstoppable killing machines". And as long as we don't have both excellent survivability and excellent damage, we won't be.

 

Now, maybe if you'd actually read what people like KBN said, instead of reading what you want to, you'd realize that he actually said that in certain situations, losing self heals was a nerf. It just so happens that we're still not resilient enough front line tanks to take advantage of where the DR was a buff in PVP, and so you only get to see the nerf.

 

 

 

Actually, I have. He was in an Obroan/Berserker mix, I was in full PVE gear, and I still got him to ~1/2 health. And I play on a PVE server because I don't want to get ganked while leveling up, not because I'm adverse to PVP. A lot of people feel that way. While we may not have the best PVPers in the game, the game is hardly competitive in terms of PVP. Even ask Xinika, who you seem to be willing to listen to.

 

I said not 50% not 25% it doesn't have to be game breaking I wont throw out the proper percentage because I do not know what it should be. In my case had him down below 50% 3 times in one fight my Def cooldowns and interrupt just could not keep pace with his heals and bubbles and dots it was a semi long fight. I feel if I had a bleed I didn't have too hard cast every time and wait for a long cooldown on top of it that would help that got shot down so now I say a little more melee damage that gets shot down ok how about taking at least one ability of a shared cool down I am sure there is a prob with that too. I think some people just want to shoot down everything no matter what. Ok lets do what you want then make us hard as heck to kill and they will lower our dps .So I will only say just do something, anything in a positive direction or lets just stay how we are then since you are fine with it ,while watching yet another sorc and sage spec get buffed.

[Aelanis]

Honestly that does sound a bit harsh. There are very few cases when a full tank can beat a healer 1v1, tanks just don't have enough burst and healers will wear them down (scissors cuts paper). At this point skank healers can heal at around 80% of what a full healer can do and have much more survivability, so saying it is a L2P issue kind coming off as rude.

 

That being said, what occurred is exactly what should have occurred given the way the specs are lined up now. Damage should not be increased for tanks, and even if it was, it would not make a difference. Beating a skank would require pretty high dps level damage and giving that to a full tank is pretty ridiculous.

 

I had read it as Madness/Lightning hybrid. It's not as surprising if they can heal themselves. And maybe it was a little harsh, but I'm really tired of seeing people ask for our class to return to being very overpowered, where we'll get nerfed again. I wasn't too fond of the perception that we were too squishy for Operations as a result of changes made, and I don't like that there are some people who still seem to hold that perception.

[Jiminison]

OH ya name the place and time and I'll make that toon, I d love to see how it's done!

[Jiminison]

I had read it as Madness/Lightning hybrid. It's not as surprising if they can heal themselves. And maybe it was a little harsh, but I'm really tired of seeing people ask for our class to return to being very overpowered, where we'll get nerfed again. I wasn't too fond of the perception that we were too squishy for Operations as a result of changes made, and I don't like that there are some people who still seem to hold that perception.

 

Who says it has to be overpowered get past that ,making broad speculation is the safe way in debating something like this no one said to nerf anybody, just a little attention to a class a lot of us love to play that has not seen any for quite awhile , we do need a change the game has changed since our last positive class change ,when ever that was.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Jiminison

[Jiminison]

Honestly that does sound a bit harsh. There are very few cases when a full tank can beat a healer 1v1, tanks just don't have enough burst and healers will wear them down (scissors cuts paper). At this point skank healers can heal at around 80% of what a full healer can do and have much more survivability, so saying it is a L2P issue kind coming off as rude.

 

That being said, what occurred is exactly what should have occurred given the way the specs are lined up now. Damage should not be increased for tanks, and even if it was, it would not make a difference. Beating a skank would require pretty high dps level damage and giving that to a full tank is pretty ridiculous.

 

I can see your point then scissor vs sheet metal may need to be the out come something close too a stale mate. 1 v 1 too me is the ultimate measurement as some one who enjoys pvp besides every star wars movie ends in 1 v 1. Fighting sports are that way, we as society respect 1 v 1 one more than any other kind of fighting its human nature. I do enjoy the gang warfare that group pvp is but I see more enjoyment deriving from being able to hold your own when by your self or defending some one .

Edited May 20, 2014 by Jiminison

[Jiminison]

Who says it has to be overpowered get past that ,making broad speculation is the safe way in debating something like this no one said to nerf anybody, just a little attention to a class a lot of us love to play that has not seen any for quite awhile , we do need a change the game has changed since our last positive class change ,when ever that was.

 

wow I said change like a million times ....I sound like a politician doh.

[Jiminison]

My only regret is that I felt like the Madness PvP questioned was answered beforehand and now Darkness' PvP survivability is undeniably low as a full fledged tank. I just hope it won't be another year before that issue is sorted out.

 

 

The damage KC puts out is enough. The problem is, it doesn't survive long enough to properly upkeep the damage in conjunction to its DR boosts (which can be interrupted and or shut down) If we were able to actually keep up a bit longer without having to run or play super defensively, then naturally, you will see what KC is capable of damage wise in the longrun.

 

For example: Before the change to self heals, it was very possible to 1v1 Infiltration Shadows as KC with over 75% of your HP pool left. Sometimes you'd frankly just maul them down with your damage output but back then you could actually stay alive long enough to get said damage out.

 

I can't argue this, damage boost through better Defense and more easily controlled than a dps boost. My only issue with this is that our over all defense is what has been tweaked over and over and over and this seems to be where they want us to be so my natural inclination is too ask for more damage. I guess if they can change their regular habit of scaling down our D and actually embracing it then I would see it different.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Jiminison

[Tonev]

While i agree pt changes a little much. Hopefully toned down abit before live. But changes are completely counter able via cleanse/shroud/evasion. So until they make pt's dots not cleanseable. Not a huge pvp change.

 

Deception doesn't have dot damage they can simply increase for pve sustained damage. So i leave that theory crafting to much more qualified people.

 

Man, I wreak people on my Vanguard and to say that the dots aren't a problem because they can be cleansed is a understatement. I can keep dots up on a target almost 100% of the time having the Operatives or Scoundrels do nothing but that the whole time "until I gett CCed/stunlocked and burned". I think it's a huge mistake to constantly keep buffing the classes of this game, becaue eventually it will lead to a necessary item squish to bring balance back to the whole game.

 

WOW did this and regretted as it made a lot of their high end bosses (Litch King) and others not even a challenge for people anymore (He became soloable just like Malgus).

[jack__]

WOW did this and regretted as it made a lot of their high end bosses (Litch King) and others not even a challenge for people anymore (He became soloable just like Malgus).

I have a nagging feeling that Malgus isn't a high end boss, considering he was incredibly easy pre 2.0 as well

[Jyowan]

Ok now I'm done with that. I really need to understand a thing here. I'm a Deception PVE player since day 1. I got some questions here, I thought Deception would be finally be balanced for PVE in 2.8, but now I understand it will never be. So, let me ask you thoses, and please, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

1 - On the PVE relics, there is a restriction that make it impossible to use in PVP. So, there is an already-existing function in the game that detects if the player is in PVE or PVP environment, right ?

 

2 - Bioware has a lot of difficulties on finding a way to balance the PVE Depeption without making PVP Deception overpowered. And that's why there is no balancing plan for 2.8 and the future, right?

 

3 - Knowing that, and I trully thought it would be done that way looooong time ago, why don't they just put a PVE Buff, like a permanent stance, that just boost the sustained damage for PVE? You just have to block the effect when entering a PVP environment, is that really hard to do?

Edited May 29, 2014 by Jyowan

[Aelanis]

Ok now I'm done with that. I really need to understand a thing here. I'm a Deception PVE player since day 1. I got some questions here, I thought Deception would be finally be balanced for PVE in 2.8, but now I understand it will never be. So, let me ask you thoses, and please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, it will happen eventually. Keep reading.

1 - On the PVE relics, there is a restriction that make it impossible to use in PVP. So, there is an already-existing function in the game that detects if the player is in PVE or PVP environment, right ?

You are correct.

2 - Bioware has a lot of difficulties on finding a way to balance the PVE Depeption without making PVP Deception overpowered. And that's why there is no balancing plan for 2.8 and the future, right?

There are, in fact, plans to try to change Infiltration. See following quote:

Hey Gang,

 

First of all, I want to drop in a quick apology for not having commented in here sooner. We've been paying attention here, but it's been pretty busy in the office the last couple weeks and I just wasn't making the time to respond to all the good forum posts.

 

Secondly: I think this is all really solid info/feedback/suggestions, and I love the effort put into it. I think it is likely that Infiltration/Deception will be one of the classes we touch in 2.9, and this thread is going to be such an excellent resource for ideas in places to start. Threads and player effort like these can really make my team's life so much easier, and I'm all for that!

That was in response to a 14 page long thread detailing what could be done to fix Infiltration without touching PVP, and by the end, basically everyone was in agreement about the changes: small effect on PVP, big boost to damage in PVE.

3 - Knowing that, and I trully thought it would be done that way looooong time ago, why don't they just put a PVE Buff, like a permanent stance, that just boost the sustained damage for PVE? You just have to block the effect when entering a PVP environment, is that really hard to do?

No, they can't just do that, because open world PVP exists. Yes, you could do this and balance Warzones, but it wouldn't be a panacea. Also, making it a stance would be bad because then tanks (who don't need to deal the extra damage) or Balance dps (who is going to already be near the top of the charts in 2.8, and also doesn't need the damage) could get it. And you can't just "boost sustained damage" by snapping your fingers: it takes careful consideration and planning to make sure you don't heavily impact burst with the changes. See this thread for the discussion on just how to do this.

[Jiminison]

Yes, it will happen eventually. Keep reading.

 

You are correct.

 

There are, in fact, plans to try to change Infiltration. See following quote:

 

That was in response to a 14 page long thread detailing what could be done to fix Infiltration without touching PVP, and by the end, basically everyone was in agreement about the changes: small effect on PVP, big boost to damage in PVE.

 

No, they can't just do that, because open world PVP exists. Yes, you could do this and balance Warzones, but it wouldn't be a panacea. Also, making it a stance would be bad because then tanks (who don't need to deal the extra damage) or Balance dps (who is going to already be near the top of the charts in 2.8, and also doesn't need the damage) could get it. And you can't just "boost sustained damage" by snapping your fingers: it takes careful consideration and planning to make sure you don't heavily impact burst with the changes. See this thread for the discussion on just how to do this.

 

Yes Tanks do need to deal extra damage for pvp, pve Tanks may be fine but PURE pvp tanks damage is easily mitigated. Infl/Dec damage needs to be toned down in pvp their opener is ridiculous pve I don't know how they are.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Jiminison

[Aelanis]

Yes Tanks do need to deal extra damage for pvp, pve Tanks may be fine but PURE pvp tanks damage is easily mitigated. Infl/Dec damage needs to be toned down in pvp their opener is ridiculous pve I don't know how they are.

 

We're not supposed to deal lots of damage in PVP. We need better utility and/or survivability in PVP. And the Infiltration opener is nice, but it doesn't need toning down. If you think it does, you need to learn how to play against them, just like is necessary for every other class in the game. If you know what you're doing, the Infiltration opener is nasty, but does not need to be toned down. Besides, if they toned down the opener, they'd take away a large part of what makes it competitive in PVP right now.

[AhmarZahir]

wouldn't a simple way of making phase walk usefull be armour reduction?

 

any enemy stood within a small radius receives the 20% armour reduction that would usually be applied by jugg/sniper/merc?

 

since its 0.5 sec cast it can easily be lifted and replaced where needed.

[Leafy_Bug]

Phasewalk is part of a Shadow's mitigation so to say so I would not vote for an armour debuff change. I would vote for an on the fly positioning like the sage salvation any day.

[IInox]

Phasewalk is part of a Shadow's mitigation so to say so I would not vote for an armour debuff change. I would vote for an on the fly positioning like the sage salvation any day.

 

how can u do that if PW stays for 5min?