Assassin / Shadow Top 3 Answers

[sithBracer]

Actually, that is important in NiM content. You hear about some of those wipes on NiM Brontes where she had ~200 health left? If someone had precast a DoT (Rupture, Crushing Darkness, Corrosive Dart, Impale, etc.) it would have been a kill, not a wipe. While it may be a limited circumstance, and it may not contribute a huge amount of damage, saying that it doesn't make a difference is wrong.

 

I don't hear of it, but yes it is possible. Although a much easier remedy to that little "only 200 left" problem would be to not bring a deception assassin into a NiM raid.

[Aelanis]

I don't hear of it, but yes it is possible. Although a much easier remedy to that little "only 200 left" problem would be to not bring a deception assassin into a NiM raid.

 

Except that that fight is basically made for Deception Assassins. Tons and tons of targets with not all that much health makes for a great fight for Deception, and with the control Deception has over its burst, it's one of the best specs you can actually bring to that fight.

[Jiminison]

Could that be because MC is supposed to be used only in Balance with the proc, and not shadow tanks

 

 

I've seen so many shadow dps casting MC/TTK , or shadow tanks casting MC it's ridiculous. I cry everytime

 

coming from a pvp perspective all abilities should help in a fight not hinder it or why even offer it in the first place. If not a chance to be instant at least shorten the cast time or eliminate the knock back during casting it doesn't have to be as good as balances version it just should be a little more efficient .

[Altheran]

Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows already do quite well in PvP, even with their uncompetitive sustained damage output. Their skill tree provides them with very effective burst damage, and at this time we have no plans to boost their sustained damage for fear of creating unstoppable killing machines in PvP. In the more distant future, we might diminish some of Deception’s/Infiltration’s burst damage output in exchange for more sustained damage output, but we cannot currently provide a timeframe for any potential changes.

 

I dare your combat team to try Infiltration Shadows/Deception Assassins without using Force Potency/Recklessness, then try a Vigilence guardian ("sustained" spec) and tell us with a strait face they have a good burst.

 

Hoping that it gives them a good idea of what isn't right on that spec...

 

HINT : you transformed a "backloaded burst" spec, with due improved survivability and/or controls, into a "frontload burst" spec when you allowed Force Potency to build Breaching Shadows and have its CD reset while keeping the toolset and playstyle of "backload burst" spec.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[invertioN]

coming from a pvp perspective all abilities should help in a fight not hinder it or why even offer it in the first place. If not a chance to be instant at least shorten the cast time or eliminate the knock back during casting it doesn't have to be as good as balances version it just should be a little more efficient .

Should really specify in advance, pve or pvp. I was talking mostly about tanks who are casting mind crush while they are getting constantly hit by a boss, which is the ridiculous part.

Obviously MC can have it's use if u are smart about it, but this is not what I was referring. Same goes for Aelanis' post, I think it was pretty obvious what he meant the first time.

Edited May 16, 2014 by invertioN

[Evolixe]

HINT : you transformed a "backloaded burst" spec, with due improved survivability and/or controls, into a "frontload burst" spec when you allowed Force Potency to build Breaching Shadows and have its CD reset while keeping the toolset and playstyle of "backload burst" spec.

 

What??

[Altheran]

What??

 

I explain why the spec is "so good" for PvP as some people claim while having low DPS.

 

They literally gave a great, somewhat reliable opener, area where the spec wasn't that good before, while having the controls and defenses (relatively speaking for a stealth class) of a backloaded spec, which made the spec viable despite the astonishingly low DPS.

[Evolixe]

I explain why the spec is "so good" for PvP as some people claim while having low DPS.

 

They literally gave a great, somewhat reliable opener, area where the spec wasn't that good before, while having the controls and defenses (relatively speaking for a stealth class) of a backloaded spec, which made the spec viable despite the astonishingly low DPS.

 

Which is a good thing because it makes the class all that much more skill dependant.

[sithBracer]

They literally gave a great, somewhat reliable opener, area where the spec wasn't that good before, while having the controls and defenses (relatively speaking for a stealth class) of a backloaded spec, which made the spec viable despite the astonishingly low DPS.

 

So what is your point exactly? You think they need to change the survivability and sustained damage or something?

[sithBracer]

Except that that fight is basically made for Deception Assassins. Tons and tons of targets with not all that much health makes for a great fight for Deception, and with the control Deception has over its burst, it's one of the best specs you can actually bring to that fight.

 

Ummm what?

 

The recklessness would not be reset after they kill one enemy so I don't understand what control you are talking about? The only way to reset it quickly would be to combat stealth and many people save that for an emergency rez/escape. A carnage marauder who has a gore window every 15 seconds would be much better imo.

 

But I would agree that deception would be better for this battle than madness, but that is not saying much as they both currently are garbage.

[Aelanis]

Ummm what?

 

The recklessness would not be reset after they kill one enemy so I don't understand what control you are talking about? The only way to reset it quickly would be to combat stealth and many people save that for an emergency rez/escape. A carnage marauder who has a gore window every 15 seconds would be much better imo.

 

But I would agree that deception would be better for this battle than madness, but that is not saying much as they both currently are garbage.

 

You're hamstringing yourself if you're saving Cloak for an emergency rez. In that fight, you can only pull it off in the first 2 phases anyway, and no one should die during that time, unless they pull a stupid and get blasted by one of the reaches.

 

Now, I'll have to check again, but I'm pretty sure that stealthing out after the droids all drops takes you out of combat with every one of them, and that when one dies, it brings you back out of combat. I could be wrong, as I haven't done the fight in Infiltration in some time, and I didn't have Cloak ready at the time when I last did it, but if it does, Deception would perform beautifully on that fight.

[sithBracer]

You're hamstringing yourself if you're saving Cloak for an emergency rez. In that fight, you can only pull it off in the first 2 phases anyway, and no one should die during that time, unless they pull a stupid and get blasted by one of the reaches.

 

I'm pretty sure you can do it after the robots phase in case someone dies during that phase, but not 100% sure either since I never have to do it.

 

 

Now, I'll have to check again, but I'm pretty sure that stealthing out after the droids all drops takes you out of combat with every one of them, and that when one dies, it brings you back out of combat. I could be wrong, as I haven't done the fight in Infiltration in some time, and I didn't have Cloak ready at the time when I last did it, but if it does, Deception would perform beautifully on that fight.

 

If you can, then yes I would agree; but since you are still in combat with brontes herself I would think you can't. But, who knows, it might be a glitch, please let me know the results.

[Altheran]

So what is your point exactly? You think they need to change the survivability and sustained damage or something?

 

I mean that there may be something not needed if they notice an overtuning when improving for PvE.

And I'm pointing out that the spec used to not be designed like now... In other words if something has to go, it's the opening power, in order to still be true to the original design of the spec.

 

I'd like Shadows to be as different from Scoundrels as possible and not see them turn Shadows into Scoundrel #2 because they share the same design, which they did not have.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[sithBracer]

I mean that there may be something not needed if they notice an overtuning when improving for PvE.

And I'm pointing out that the spec used to not be designed like now... In other words if something has to go, it's the opening power, in order to still be true to the original design of the spec.

 

Wasn't the original design bad? I heard that a long time ago madness was actually the good spec and deception was the bad one ...

[Altheran]

Wasn't the original design bad? I heard that a long time ago madness was actually the good spec and deception was the bad one ...

 

Because it suffered from low DPS like now.

 

When they buffed the spec, they only gave the frontloaded damage. It made it work in PvP, but did not solve PvE issues.

 

It wasn't inherently bad design... Just poorly made.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[sithBracer]

Because it suffered from low DPS like now.

 

When they buffed the spec, they only gave the frontloaded damage. It made it work in PvP, but did not solve PvE issues.

 

It wasn't inherently bad design... Just poorly made.

 

But if you remove the burst damage and give them more sustained damage deception will suck at PvP and we will end up with 2 dps specs that suck at pvp and are ok in PvE. In PvP TTK > overall damage.

[Altheran]

But if you remove the burst damage and give them more sustained damage deception will suck at PvP and we will end up with 2 dps specs that suck at pvp and are ok in PvE. In PvP TTK > overall damage.

 

Not removing all the burst. Just the "opening" one.

 

I'm sure you can think of plenty of specs in many games that use "finishing bursts" and doing fine...

Edited May 16, 2014 by Altheran

[Xinika]

In response to the questions answered:

 

Question 1.

 

You had already secretly answered this with the PTS changes so there's not much of a surprise. I believe this is moving in a good direction and the changes to Madness / Balance are ranked very highly in my book.

 

Question 2.

 

Madness is getting some much needed love but you've completely neglected that Deception does not need this nonsensical buff/nerf change. I believe that is an extremely lazy fix and you are capable of better. A thread like this simulates a better change with minimal impact on PvP. I should also mention it is contradictory you'd say you don't want to give a burst class more sustained damage in PvP when you've changed the Pyro PT into exactly what you preach against.

 

Question 3.

 

The ideas for the Phase Walk are on the PTS forums. It needs to be instant cast. This cannot be beyond your capability. As others have pointed out, a simple 3% increase to damage to the caster whilst it is active will help PvE DPS variants out.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Xinika

[Aelanis]

In response to the questions answered:

 

Question 1.

 

You had already secretly answered this with the PTS changes so there's not much of a surprise. I believe this is moving in a good direction and the changes to Madness / Balance are ranked very highly in my book.

 

Question 2.

 

Madness is getting some much needed love but you've completely neglected that Deception does not need this nonsensical buff/nerf change. I believe that is an extremely lazy fix and you are capable of better. A thread like this simulates a better change with minimal impact on PvP. I should also mention that it is contradictory that you'd say you don't want to give a burst class more sustained damage in PvP when you've changed the Pyro PT into exactly what you preach against.

 

Question 3.

 

The ideas for the Phase Walk are on the PTS forums. It needs to be instant cast. This cannot be beyond your capability. As others have pointed out, a simple 3% increase to damage to the caster whilst it is active will help PvE DPS variants out.

 

Unless they tone down the changes to Balance a lot, that 3% increase will be completely over the top in Balance. Not so much for Infiltration, but definitely Balance, especially with the 5 minute duration Phase Walk will now get. I've seen some other good ideas in other threads, but we may want to make a thread devoted solely to a discussion of Phase Walk, and try to gather all the ideas there, as they're currently widely scattered.

[Jiminison]

Hey folks,

 

Here are your top 3 questions, back from the combat team.

 

-----

Madness in PvP

 

The Madness Assassin has been grossly revamped from its original state pre-xpac, which in turn has caused many players to become repulsed by its current playstyle. Due to the changes, Madness also suffered a dramatic hit in PvP, losing access to its Insta-Whirlwind utility and the loss of Maul procs which also goes to hurt its burst potential. In addition, the spec suffers from being far too easy to kill (having no true stealth benefits) with no real execution power to actually down targets beyond fluff damage, therefore making it seemingly a useless fighter on the field in comparison to what other classes / specs can do.

 

With no team utility, lack of kill power and absurdly low survivability, what exactly is the purpose of a Madness Assassin on the battlefield? Are there any plans to alter or change the viability of the spec in PvP?

 

The purpose of the Madness/Balance Assassin/Shadow on the field of battle is to put a great deal of pressure on the enemy by dealing a large amount of sustained damage. If left unchecked, a Madness/Balance Assassin/Shadow should be able to devastate enemy forces with their high damage output. We know that the relatively low sustained damage output of the Madness/Balance Assassin/Shadow has prevented players from adequately fulfilling this role, and we do have plans to alter the viability of Madness/Balance Assassins/Shadows in PvP. We are currently working to improve their performance in the 2.8 update. You can read up on and discuss the latest information regarding these improvements in our

Public Test Server forum

.

 

At the time of this writing, here are the current 2.8 changes that affect Madness/Balance Assassins/Shadows:

 

Assassin/Shadow

General

• Assassin’s/Shadow’s Training now additionally reduces the activation time of Whirlwind/Force Lift by 1 second.
  
  
• Mass Mind Control will now taunt NPC’s while Dark Charge/Combat Technique is active and reduce threat when Dark Charge/Combat Technique is not active.
  
  
• Lightning Charge/Force Technique, Surging Charge/Shadow Technique, and Dark Charge/Combat Technique no longer require 100 Force to activate but do consume all available Force when activated.
  
  

Madness/Balance

• Haunted Dreams/Containment now lowers the activation time of Whirlwind/Force Lift by 0.5/1.0 second(s) while Lightning Charge/Force Technique is active (up from 0.25/0.5 seconds).
  
  
• Shapeless Spirit/Mental Defense now causes Mass Mind Control to grant a 15/30% reduction in damage taken by the Assassin/Shadow for 6 seconds, along with its other effects.
  
  
• Raze/Force Strike now has a 100% chance to activate on melee attacks (up from 60%).
  
  
• Bloodletting/Crush Spirit now grants a 15/30% chance for damaging periodic effects to trigger Bloodletting/Crush Spirit, which finishes the active cooldown on Assassinate/Spinning Strike and makes your next Assassinate/Spinning Strike usable on a target at any health level. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds.
  
  
• Creeping Terror/Sever Force now deals slightly more damage.
  
  
• Discharge/Force Breach deals slightly more damage while Lightning Charge/Force Technique is active.
  
  
• Lightning Burns/Rippling Force now also has a 50/100% chance to trigger from Creeping Terror/Sever Force damage.
  
  
• Lingering Nightmares/Mind Warp now increases the damage dealt by Crushing Darkness/Mind Crush by 16.5/33% instead of increasing the duration of its periodic effect.
  
  

 

Please remember that the notes above are still subject to change as we continue to develop the 2.8 update.

 

PvE Assassin's Capability

 

Both DPS specs of the Assassin: Deception and Madness currently suffer from their own unique hindrances that puts us behind on the DPS markers by a fair amount.

 

Whilst Deception may be performing alright in PvP, its PvE mirror isn't exactly optimal, suffering from high fluctuations spawned by RNG elements such as the ability to land critical hits which may make or break Deception's DPS output or the current rate limit's incarnation. Due to its dependency on high surge talents or its random force regeneration mechanics, the spec can perform great when the stars align but when they don't - it severely falls behind.

 

Then Madness' target switching capability seems lacking whilst the rotation itself feels clunky, as if something is missing. It is the only spec that does not utilize the signature ability Maul and generally feels starved for force within its Thrash-spamming rotation. The top-end Madness ceiling feels low, relative to the balance norm, and looking at top damage dealers seen here or here on the Operations dummy and on a large number of boss fights confirms this. A burst filler such as Maul, Force Lightning, Shock or even a proc that triggers Assassinate could help to solve the missing link and raise the DPS ceiling in line with similar classes.

 

The stated intent of all DPS classes is to perform within the 5% bracket. Do you actually feel Assassins are performing up to par in that design intentl? Are there any plans to help us out in this area?

 

We do not believe that Assassins/Shadows are currently capable of dealing competitive sustained damage for endgame PvE content, and that is one of the things we are aiming to fix with the 2.8 update. The answer to the PvP question above contains a list of many potential changes to the Madness/Balance Assassin/Shadow that increase sustained damage. Our goal is to make Madness/Balance Assassins/Shadows a viable choice for picky Nightmare Operation group leaders once the 2.8 update goes live.

 

Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows already do quite well in PvP, even with their uncompetitive sustained damage output. Their skill tree provides them with very effective burst damage, and at this time we have no plans to boost their sustained damage for fear of creating unstoppable killing machines in PvP. In the more distant future, we might diminish some of Deception’s/Infiltration’s burst damage output in exchange for more sustained damage output, but we cannot currently provide a timeframe for any potential changes.

 

The Phase Walk Enigma

 

While Phase Walk finds a solid use in PvP or even for the Assassin Tank in PvE, the PvE DPS variants of the Assassin have practically no use for the ability. Outside a random escape or perhaps a near impractical situation, is it safe to argue this ability was solely formed for the tank or geared specifically for the Assassin’s PvP arsenal?

 

If so, are there any planned changes to make it more viable for the PvE DPS Assassin?

 

It is safe to assume Phase Walk was primarily designed for PvP, but that does not mean you could not lay it down where you know you might later need to be in certain encounters to save yourself a Force Speed cooldown and move to that location faster. We already have some distant plans to improve Phase Walk for damage dealing Assassins/Shadows in PvE (but we cannot let that cat out of the bag just yet), and we will also consider additional improvements to Phase Walk as well. We welcome your ideas in this regard, and we look forward to reading them in your replies.

 

-eric

 

Tanks need more damage out put for pvp. Every fight I have 1 v1 with what I am assuming hybrid sorc is me coming with in 30% of their life and them healing up 75% one did this 3 times in a row to me she finally widdled me down. And as far as dps *** are concerned they eat through me quick unless I can break up their rotation and it usually comes down to me lacking dps in that fight as well but atlest I can win in that scenario (sometimes). Just look at pure tanks dps a bit please I don't expect to 2 shot people but every class has def cool downs why not give the tanks some real dps cool downs. I have to say this too shadows need another def stance which trades the DR buff for self heals this way both camps of heals shadows and DR shadows will be happy. You would think since our base class is the consular we would actually have a healing mechanic in one of the shadow trees . We have endured nothing but survival nerfs and one very , very meek dps buff while you guys have been very liberal with classes like trooper and even guardian is preforming better after the so called nerf. I rode the roller coaster with paladin in that other game this feels way too much like that and is why I don't play that game at all now ,it gets old.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Jiminison

[Xinika]

Tanks need more damage out put for pvp. Every fight I have 1 v1 with what I am assuming hybrid sorc is me coming with in 30% of their life and them healing up 75% one did this 3 times in a row to me she finally widdled me down. And as far as dps *** are concerned they eat through me quick unless I can break up their rotation and it usually comes down to me lacking dps in that fight as well but atlest I can win in that scenario (sometimes). Just look at pure tanks dps a bit please I don't expect to 2 shot people but every class has def cool downs why not give the tanks some real dps cool downs. I have to say this too shadows need another def stance which trades the DR buff for self heals this way both camps of heals shadows and DR shadows will be happy. You would think since our base class is the consular we would actually have a healing mechanic in one of the shadow trees . We have endured nothing but survival nerfs and one very , very meek dps buff while you guys have been very liberal with classes like trooper and even guardian is preforming better after the so called nerf. I rode the roller coaster with paladin in that other game this feels way too much like that and is why I don't play that game at all now ,it gets old.

Our full tank spec does not need damage. It needs to survive like a tank. It's absolutely pathetic in every way. This is by far the worst I've seen Tank Shadows in PvP.

[Aelanis]

Tanks need more damage out put for pvp. Every fight I have 1 v1 with what I am assuming hybrid sorc is me coming with in 30% of their life and them healing up 75% one did this 3 times in a row to me she finally widdled me down. And as far as dps *** are concerned they eat through me quick unless I can break up their rotation and it usually comes down to me lacking dps in that fight as well but atlest I can win in that scenario (sometimes). Just look at pure tanks dps a bit please I don't expect to 2 shot people but every class has def cool downs why not give the tanks some real dps cool downs. I have to say this too shadows need another def stance which trades the DR buff for self heals this way both camps of heals shadows and DR shadows will be happy. You would think since our base class is the consular we would actually have a healing mechanic in one of the shadow trees . We have endured nothing but survival nerfs and one very , very meek dps buff while you guys have been very liberal with classes like trooper and even guardian is preforming better after the so called nerf. I rode the roller coaster with paladin in that other game this feels way too much like that and is why I don't play that game at all now ,it gets old.

 

1) Tanks are not dps. We need to survive, not kill the opponents outright. We also don't need to return to being "an unstoppable killing machine" (I feel like that quote is going to come back to haunt them ) like we used to be, where no one can beat us. Xinika already said it: we need to be more survivable as a tank, not do more damage. That's why we have teammates. Balance is good. Being a Mary Sue class is not, and leads to more nerfs.

 

2) Sounds like a l2p issue against hybrid sorcs.

 

3) KBN gave a great reasoning as to why a separate stance for self heals would not work, and it's even more the case now that stance dancing doesn't require 100 force, but instead all of what we have left. You may not like it, but he's right: we can't have the best of all worlds.

 

4) We have a tree heavily devoted to self-healing: it's called Balance. It's part of that hybrid that you seem to think is so strong, and we share it with Sages.

[Jiminison]

Our full tank spec does not need damage. It needs to survive like a tank. It's absolutely pathetic in every way. This is by far the worst I've seen Tank Shadows in PvP.

 

I fully agree with a defensive boost , our melee could use a boost especially with life pools rising every 6 mo or so, if not more damage maybe take some of our abilities off of sharing the same global cooldown . But I still feel our melee could use a boost

Edited May 20, 2014 by Jiminison

[Jiminison]

1) Tanks are not dps. We need to survive, not kill the opponents outright. We also don't need to return to being "an unstoppable killing machine" (I feel like that quote is going to come back to haunt them ) like we used to be, where no one can beat us. Xinika already said it: we need to be more survivable as a tank, not do more damage. That's why we have teammates. Balance is good. Being a Mary Sue class is not, and leads to more nerfs.

 

2) Sounds like a l2p issue against hybrid sorcs.

 

3) KBN gave a great reasoning as to why a separate stance for self heals would not work, and it's even more the case now that stance dancing doesn't require 100 force, but instead all of what we have left. You may not like it, but he's right: we can't have the best of all worlds.

 

4) We have a tree heavily devoted to self-healing: it's called Balance. It's part of that hybrid that you seem to think is so strong, and we share it with Sages.

 

So how high up in this so called healing tree can you go if you spec full tank ,you may want to look into that.

I may listen to xinika but not pve master KBN. Plus making us harder too kill would make us "unstoppable". I am not asking for a 50% or even 25% boost in damage just a little boost. life pools have risen our damage has not (gear stats are not enough) while other classes ability damage has risen. My experience with self heals was more enjoyable than DR and there are plenty of us who feel this way so when DR numbers are thrown around showing a positive outcome over self heals it flies in the face of my personal experience and means nothing to me.

[Jiminison]

Hey Aelanis Ill make a toon on your sever you spec your shadow 36 into kinetic and I want to see you face off 1v1 against a similar geared sorc hybrid...I mean this whole heartedly .......oh wait your on a pve server. So tell me of your great victories over this new version of sorc. please! (l2p bah) Edited May 20, 2014 by Jiminison