Vanguards and Powertechs are the new squish

[J_McSkill]

I've played several hundred ranked games so far this season and I can say that VG's/PT's are the new focus target in arenas. With all the buffs that other classes have received (Juggs/Guards, Sorcs/Sages, etc.) this class has fallen behind. VG's/PT's are a heavy armour wearing melee class with NO real gap closer and what I now consider sub par defensive cooldowns. The only gap closer they have is a pull on a long cooldown that ONLY works if the target isn't white barred.

 

I'm not screaming for a massive buff, just a small tweak to either make them more mobile by adding a baseline storm OR changing adrenaline rush / kolto to cap at 50% instead of 35%. After all Juggs/Guards doesn't cap at all and is pretty much a heal to full.

 

I've talked to others who feel the same (not just people who main a PT/VG) so I figured I would make a post to see how others feel. A heavy armour melee class shouldn't be the squishiest target imo.

 

Thanks for any comments.

Edited June 28, 2014 by J_McSkill

[TonyDragonflame]

Assault/pyro vanguards/pt indeed very squishy and often primary target (after dps operatives, mercs and dps sins).

[EzioMessi]

I have noticed this in Solo Ranked, and whenever the enemy has no Ranged players on the team (Sorcs are still my favourite target ) someone always suggest hitting the Vanguard/PT first (unless there's also an Scouperative on the enemy team), because Sent/Mara have 5 second invincibility, Guardians and Juggs (until 2.8) have heal-to-full, and Assassins and Ops can only be attacked once they open up on you.

 

Still, this situation will change with 2.8, because ED/FD does not in any way make the Jugg invincible. Yesterday I got matched against a team that had both a PT and a Jugg, and we randomly decided to see if we could just burst through his ED, and to my surprise, we actually could completely shut him down and kill him really fast. With 2.8, it will become even easier, so Guardian/Juggs are going to be target number 1 soon.

[DynamiCtagez]

There getting even more damage with 2.8 and a crit chance increase. So definitely no buffs pls. Unless they nerf the burst. Edited May 10, 2014 by DynamiCtagez

[J_McSkill]

There getting even more damage with 2.8 and a crit chance increase. So definitely no buffs pls. Unless they nerf the burst.

 

Honestly I don't want a DPS buff at all! Just a mobility (gap closer) or defensive buff.

[MidichIorian]

So you've basically played a few houndred games of ranked without a sage/sorc on your team. You're lucky so I don't see what you're complaining about.

[Easpeak]

I've played a few hundred ranked games so far this season and I can say that VG's/PT's are the new focus target in arenas. With all the buffs that other classes have received (Juggs/Guards, Sorcs/Sages, etc.) this class has fallen behind. VG's/PT's are a heavy armour wearing melee class with NO real gap closer and what I now consider sub par defensive cooldowns. The only gap closer they have is a pull on a long cooldown that ONLY works if the target isn't white barred.

 

I'm not screaming for a massive buff, just a small tweak to either make them more mobile by adding a baseline storm OR changing adrenaline rush / kolto to cap at 75% instead of 35%. After all Juggs/Guards doesn't cap at all and is pretty much a heal to full.

 

I've talked to others who feel the same (not just people who main a PT/VG) so I figured I would make a post to see how others feel. A heavy armour melee class shouldn't be the squishiest target imo.

 

Thanks for any comments.

 

You are doing something wrong. VG/PT is a fun cookie cutter class with incredible spike. You just have to manage your defensive cooldowns better.

[J_McSkill]

So you've basically played a few houndred games of ranked without a sage/sorc on your team. You're lucky so I don't see what you're complaining about.

 

Sorc/Sages do get focused often but I can honestly say that with all the buffs they've received it's less now and a PT/VG is a quicker kill.

[J_McSkill]

You are doing something wrong. VG/PT is a fun cookie cutter class with incredible spike. You just have to manage your defensive cooldowns better.

 

Hey Easpeak, I've played a number of matches with and against you (my pub's name is Swat). I was the number one rated VG on our server but believe I'm second as of this post. I'm glad you feel that way because honestly I feel we've fallen behind the other classes in regards to DCD's and mobility. And like I mentioned, I've had long convo's with some other high rated VG's/PT's and they seem to feel the way I do. Thanks for the comment tho, I'm glad to hear all opinions.

[Aelaias]

I target assault/pyro preferentially due to their combination of very high dps and softness. Their dps at this time is op and is getting further boosts. If you ignore them your team sets up for a loss.

[windogie]

You are doing something wrong. VG/PT is a fun cookie cutter class with incredible spike. You just have to manage your defensive cooldowns better.

 

Not really it's been known for a long time now that they need better defensive cool downs. Mostly tank has needed it but the others are showing through now since the advanced proto tank isn't possible anymore. It has been narrowed down to them needing more CDs or better CDs. Shield gives 25% reduction for the duration. Pretty much it's the most useless situational cd there is, it gives a armor buff which does nothing against the majority of damage that will be coming at you. Example any dot class, vengeance dots and arsenal merc. As well as any class with armor penetration which is about every class that does white damage. Now from a tank standpoint this is bad because juggs have the exact same cd but better with 40% reduction to all damage. One reason why focusing vg tanks is viable btw but ignoring tank completely dps will just get ignored for the duration then globaled after is over with nothing but kolto overload to save them, which sadly doesn't do crap against most dps situations and is only really worthwhile in tank spec. Bioware is pretty much doing what they did-and still are doing-to mercs which is increase their damage but never touch their defensive cooldowns.

[alexsamma]

I target assault/pyro preferentially due to their combination of very high dps and softness. Their dps at this time is op and is getting further boosts. If you ignore them your team sets up for a loss.

 

Anytime I see a pyro/assault on the other side I try to convince my team to target them until they pop their self heal, not because I think they are easy to kill, but because their un-controlled burst is to strong; by targeting the pt/vg first we can hopefully shut down some of the initial burst and pressure the vg into popping his defenses early in the match, the last thing you want is a pt/vg as the last man standing with all of his dcd's ready to go.

[DarthRaika]

Yes they are often the focus target but that is also due to their burst and this is only an issue in ranked. In regs they are GREAT and in yolo they are very good (but often focus targets). Also, sorcs, mercs, and op dps ops are all higher on the focus target list in arena. Sorcs have invulnerable but even the best sorcs are rather easily shutdown with good ff. I know the 2 sorcs considered the best on my server I've seen held to under 10k in several rounds where we ff'd them hard. I've never seen the best ptech/vguards shutdown that well.

 

A good vguard will still pull out some nice dmg during his dcd's and have a good chance at bursting someone down before they die where a sorc will just melt or kite with much lower dps output. Also, this is assuming bad yolo's with no peels/etc. With a team that works together it is hard to ff down either class and it is only the poor op that will still fail hard here .

 

Really they are in a good spot imo. They are very strong when left alone and have enough dcd's + instants to survive long enough under strong ff while still putting out burst. If you are yolo'n and you get several dps on you who are decent then you should die.

 

Not attacking you btw just saying I don't think the class is in as bad of a place as you seem to think.

[nitroyoshi]

cant buff everyones survivability in yolo 4v4 dps

because theres always going to be a squishiest class

[J_McSkill]

cant buff everyones survivability in yolo 4v4 dps

because theres always going to be a squishiest class

 

I agree totally, just don't think that a VG/PT should be that class. A heavy armour wearing tanky melee dps class with no stealth or gap closer should not be the easiest to kill. Range can kite and attack at range, stealth classes can avoid detection.

[XenTharqua]

VGs and PTs are still the n°3 class in terms of representation in the top 200 solo queue (31/200). They were overpowered during S1 if you ask me but now I would say they are fine.

 

They have very high damage potential, good defence and ok mobility. Snipers and Commandos gets the initial focus much more frequently.

[alexsamma]

I agree totally, just don't think that a VG/PT should be that class. A heavy armour wearing tanky melee dps class with no stealth or gap closer should not be the easiest to kill. Range can kite and attack at range, stealth classes can avoid detection.

 

You are not the easiest to kill, in either spec, even vigi/veng with all of it's tankish dcds falls fast to four dps focusing it, that's just the nature of solo queue.

[J_McSkill]

Really they are in a good spot imo. They are very strong when left alone and have enough dcd's + instants to survive long enough under strong ff while still putting out burst. If you are yolo'n and you get several dps on you who are decent then you should die.

 

Not attacking you btw just saying I don't think the class is in as bad of a place as you seem to think.

 

VG's/PT's have two dcd's, a shield and an eight second heal that caps at 35% health... No vanish, no leap, no push back, no super sprint or teleport and have to be in melee range to do real damage.

 

Thanks for the comment and I appreciate your opinion.

[J_McSkill]

You are not the easiest to kill, in either spec, even vigi/veng with all of it's tankish dcds falls fast to four dps focusing it, that's just the nature of solo queue.

 

I'm not saying they are the easiest but they are close. Also if your 4 dps focus our jugg and our 4 dps focus your PT, my team wins.

 

I'm just saying that the class designed as a tanky dps should not be even close to the easiest considering the lack of escapes and dcd's.

[foxmob]

I agree totally, just don't think that a VG/PT should be that class. A heavy armour wearing tanky melee dps class with no stealth or gap closer should not be the easiest to kill. Range can kite and attack at range, stealth classes can avoid detection.

 

PT/VG dcds are fine. dps juggs are off the charts. sins are just as easy to burn; they're just stealth, so they can dictate the fight whereas PTs cannot (phasewalk is quite powerful though). maras...look. I choose between a mara and pt based on the player not the class. but UYR and camo are reasonable dcds in their current state, just as reactive shield that fires back and adrenaline rush that both replenishes and reduces dmg are reasonable. so if you're going to pick the one that's out of place, I think you need to look at the jugg dps being too robust rather than the PT being too weak.

[Pearlie]

I've noticed this trend as well. As pyro, you often have to use your stun-breaker before being white-barred or you will be globalled.

[J_McSkill]

PT/VG dcds are fine. dps juggs are off the charts. sins are just as easy to burn; they're just stealth, so they can dictate the fight whereas PTs cannot (phasewalk is quite powerful though). maras...look. I choose between a mara and pt based on the player not the class. but UYR and camo are reasonable dcds in their current state, just as reactive shield that fires back and adrenaline rush that both replenishes and reduces dmg are reasonable. so if you're going to pick the one that's out of place, I think you need to look at the jugg dps being too robust rather than the PT being too weak.

 

I agree, we're both getting at the same thing just in different ways. I was saying to increase VG'S/PT'S survivability or mobility to bring in line with others. You're saying decrease other classes to bring in line... Either way we agree that they are not on par with the other heavy armour, tanky dps class in terms of survivability or mobility.

[foxmob]

I've noticed this trend as well. As pyro, you often have to use your stun-breaker before being white-barred or you will be globalled.

 

it sucks, but all BHs/Troopers need to anticipate and prepop adrenaline. also hydrollics is off gcd, so you want to shield and hydrollics asap. eat the first and then break. I do it on my merc (and you think PTs have it bad!) and it usually works. when it doesn't work, it's cuz I did something wrong. everything after that though...oye. sucks w/o tank and heals.

[alexsamma]

I'm not saying they are the easiest but they are close. Also if your 4 dps focus our jugg and our 4 dps focus your PT, my team wins.

 

I'm just saying that the class designed as a tanky dps should not be even close to the easiest considering the lack of escapes and dcd's.

 

A class designed as a tanky dps should not have nearly as much burst a pt/vg does then?

[foxmob]

A class designed as a tanky dps should not have nearly as much burst a pt/vg does then?

 

the balance is fine. really. nobody should be able to live through 3 dedicated dps w/o guard and heals. and while sins have an incredible escape, there's nothing spectacular at all about their mitigation/avoidance. it's just juggs that reflect and ED for a 2nd life w/o ever using the shield or medpac that makes pt's seem lacking.

 

ok. think I've said this more or less already. I'll stop.