23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions

[snave]

You're right, I haven't participated in this thread previously, and I don't frequent the class forums often. However, my past participation has little to do with how I feel that you are badly representing one of my classes through your responses here.

 

Mate you had plenty of time to give input to the questions at I time when I could have listened to you, go back through the thread and you'll see that other than total class redesigns and questions that had already been answered I tried to work everyone's points in to the final product. It easy to turn up as captain hindsight and pretend you know everything, the window for you to voice any concerns was more than ample but like most players you said nothing, did nothing.

 

 

As for how long it has taken them to fix it, you could ask the same thing for many other classes, some of which have been in a bad situation as long or longer than operatives. The important thing is that they're doing something now, and creating good dialog with the players, which includes this class rep system.

 

Despite having the power of hindsight you don't seem to have done your homework very well. We have had terrible dialog with the devs, the only time they asked us for feedback they opened it back up for other classes but ignored it for us even when we were creating threads to try and get something going for the PTS they ignored us. It's also incredibly relevant how long it takes to fix something, we've been on the sidelines for the best part of this games lifespan are we meant to just cross our fingers and hope that they do something soon so we can play at the end game?

 

Again, whether you think the extra information you put along with your final "question" is just fluff or a part of the question, by putting it in there along with your summarized question, it is a part of what you're asking. To say that the question has not changed is not accurate, as it's changed from multiple paragraphs to just one.

 

The question is the same, the context, evidence and suggestions were removed. What was said changed yes, the question did not.

 

You may have thought that providing a wall of text was the best idea, but obviously you were mistaken. Eric asked you to cut it back, and you and your buddy went on a tirade, accusing the devs of lying, incompetence, and looking for nothing but praise. And that's what bothered me. Instead of responding to, in my opinion, a quite reasonable request with humility you instead lashed out. I don't really care about how you had phrased the questions originally, only that I agree with Eric's assessment, and found your responses to be completely uncalled for.

 

The wall of text was the best idea based on the assumption that bioware wants to fix the class. It laid out all of the evidence to support the issues, the issues themselves and potential ways to fix those issues. Then there was a nice open question for them to lay out how they felt about the class and what they would be doing to help us. If someone handed me that for every situation that I need to solve IRL I could probably cut my hours in half. That being said, it may not have been what bioware wanted from this.

 

Yeah I went on a tirade, I admitted that several pages ago. It was a rant born from the frustration of trying to get this class to a respectable level for the last 2 years +, I said from the very beginning that how bioware treated these questions and responded to us would be more telling than the actual questions themselves. Not sure how else you'd like me to respond to this point because I've already addressed it several times. You seem to have taken me ranting incredibly seriously and become fixated on it, it would probably be easier for me to edit my post to avoid any further complications from it but I tend to own my mistakes rather than pretend they didn't happen.

 

 

 

Just to wrap this from me. The question have been submitted, I did the best of my ability and apologies to anyone who feels I let them down. I've already arranged to go on to the torocast podcast to discuss the answers when we get them so that should save me some typing at least.

 

I'd like to sincerely thank all the people who helped me generate these questions and wish you all the best of luck in the future, there's a new MMO coming out this weekend which is likely to take up a lot of my time going forward but I'll still try to make a 2.8 PvP video because "Snaves On A Plane" is too good a title not to use. This will be the last response from me on this thread, I think everything that I can say has been said. Regardless of the questions / answers / changes, never forgot - We are Lions!

 

 

I'm a Lion rawr

Edited May 28, 2014 by snave

[Nateous]

You're right, I haven't participated in this thread previously, and I don't frequent the class forums often. However, my past participation has little to do with how I feel that you are badly representing one of my classes through your responses here.

actually it does. As it is not just YOUR class. To criticize now sort of implies you are a " fairweather fan" of the specm unlike snave and the rest of the vocal community who have tried to be patient and constructive with BW. You'll have to excuse some of us as we are quite tired of broken promises, unwarrented nerfs, and cold shoulders. Please stop sheeting in my hand and calling it chocolate.

 

As for how long it has taken them to fix it, you could ask the same thing for many other classes, some of which have been in a bad situation as long or longer than operatives.

 

i'm sorry what now? Please name 1 class whose been nerfed more, broken and left for dead, or other wise ignored more than agents.

 

The important thing is that they're doing something now, and creating good dialog with the players, which includes this class rep system.

 

you mean like this recent PtS, where we've effectively been ignored all month, forcing to curb our questions into pts-related questions? Yeah , if thats not red-headed-step-child ignorance - dont even know.

 

Instead of responding to, in my opinion, a quite reasonable request with humility you instead lashed out. I don't really care about how you had phrased the questions originally, only that I agree with Eric's assessment, and found your responses to be completely uncalled for.

 

funny thing about opinions...

 

"Do you even shiv, bro?"

[Adovir]

 

I'd like to sincerely thank all the people who helped me generate these questions and wish you all the best of luck in the future, there's a new MMO coming out this weekend which is likely to take up a lot of my time going forward but I'll still try to make a 2.8 PvP video because "Snaves On A Plane" is too good a title not to use. This will be the last response from me on this thread, I think everything that I can say has been said. Regardless of the questions / answers / changes, never forgot - We are Lions!

 

 

I'm a Lion rawr

 

When is your next podcast/stream I haven't watched any, your Brit time right if your TRE?

[Aikion]

Snave admirably gathered, analyzed, and distilled the community concerns into 3 basic areas of interest. Then filled in the background for each area with supporting information, and community suggested fixes. Eric felt, and I can see his side as there were a lot of rhetorical questions, that the questions needed "simplification." I.E. the background information, meant to provide insight into not only what we were asking for but why we were asking for it, was cluttering up the actual questions.

 

I'm hoping for the best. But as it stands, I'm going to put forward the following template for future Community Reps to use.

 

1. ___________. Others classes have it, we don't. Fix please?

2. We can't ___________ fast enough, ___________ long enough, or ___________ others enough to matter in ___________. Fix please?

3. ___________, ___________, and ___________. Fix please?

 

And our questions rephrased in this format:

 

1. Raid utility. Others have it, we don't. Fix please?

2. We can't kill stuff fast enough, live long enough, or help others enough to matter in Ranked PvP. Fix please?

3. Bugs, RNG, and silly ability restrictions. Fix please?

 

You'll probably get the same response, and spend less time worrying over how to phrase your question!

Edited May 28, 2014 by Aikion

[Cordorian]

While assassins may be preforming poorly in PVE right now as of 2.8 their madness tree will be doing exceptionally good damage, comparable to ours. Along with a size able dps boost (which they totally deserve because their sustained dps is quite poor) they are also getting a decent survivability boost so the raid spot that we got do to pure damage can be given to an assassin instead because of better defenses and raid utility.

 

The shadow tanks I've never had a problem with in PVE, I actually still prefer having a shadow/sin tank in my group because it allows for more mechanical leniency. What most people found to be the problem with shadow tanks is that they wanted to continue a dual shadow/sin tank combo for raiding which was no longer viable because of spikiness. No tank wants to concede that they're better for off tanking and if they don't have a CD ready having the boss isn't a good idea. My group used a sin PT combo and we never really had any problems because the sin let the PT main tank while he handled more adds and boss mechanics with shroud.

 

Lastly we all know how decept is in PVP, no matter how you spin it it's a very strong class. Comparing an Op to a Sin in PVP is very difficult because while they both do the same roll one can do it better mainly because if initial burst fails they can live to see the next fight because of better escape mechanics and survivability.

 

Excuse my ignorance, and this isnt meant to be mean in any way... is there any pts data on the madness changes for PVE (not that it matter for this discussion we have 3 viable specs for pve atm, and only one most have). Not that dummy parse matter anything, i just would like to know how madness on sin is doing with the changes, because even me as basically a pve noob could easily beat the highest sin parse on op bosses with my scoundrel dps (both scrapper and df) at the time i still did pve (like 3-4 months ago and even pre concealment buff). Despite their better survivability what additionaly group utility do sin provide (i am really just interested), they cant really off tank since they are still too squishy for that, phase walk is mostly useless in pve, operatives can stealth rez as well, so ?what is it sin bring to the table that operatives cannot despite better survivability?

 

about the tanking thing, you say sin are basically off tanks and that seems to be the received opinion, so basically both pt and jugg are better main tanks. Fair enogh operative still have a heals spec, that both can act as a main tank healer and an aoe healer, thereby being a must of for any serious raid group and sorc or merc being potentially better at the specific job, we can perform both if needed to a very good degree and being the easiest to play as well. (no reason to nerf medicine). Not saying that operative heals is like stike king of the hill in pvp.

I dont exactly know what the raid leaders said to snave (despite being in the same guild, i am a bit lazy logging imp side these days and asking him in game), but i imagine that still you want to have mara as a bloodthirst and predation bot and probably if you roll with 2 melee vengeance is now referred, for surviability and cc immunty issues. Otherwise i think snipers and mercs pretty much form the dps these days. the problem is not that operative are not viable, the problem is probably still that other specs just offer the edge more for progression raiding.

 

deception is a very good place pvp wise, but then again there arent that many player that can pull it off in group ranked anymore, and heck roudy can even make sorc healing work somehow.

 

and absolutely no, i think the both dps specs definitely need help and i crying for it for ages, but when it comes to sustained dps both seems fine, major issure is surviability.

 

and finally i ultimately dont disagree at that much, just some questions that popped up when reading this parts of this thread. Operative concerns are perfectly reasonably, i played both scoundrel and operative for quite some time now, and i do think snave did a good job (not just because he is kind a guild mate still, kind of a big deal and kind of less *** than he appears to, kind of the person that last year gave me hope in continuing playing the class as dps), i just wanna know.

 

 

Anyway my voice doesnt matter or will not matter. I gave up operative dps for pvp quite a while ago, and even though trying it again in last 6 months i am now at the point i dont enjoy it anymore.On top like snave, i will probably soon will be playing another game. (and yes i am not exactly what would call good ).

 

Operative where one of the most fun class to play in this game, and looking back i dont regret being stubborn and stupid liking them. It just lost interest i guess.

[Adovir]

Excuse my ignorance, and this isnt meant to be mean in any way... is there any pts data on the madness changes for PVE (not that it matter for this discussion we have 3 viable specs for pve atm, and only one most have). Not that dummy parse matter anything, i just would like to know how madness on sin is doing with the changes, because even me as basically a pve noob could easily beat the highest sin parse on op bosses with my scoundrel dps (both scrapper and df) at the time i still did pve (like 3-4 months ago and even pre concealment buff). Despite their better survivability what additionaly group utility do sin provide (i am really just interested), they cant really off tank since they are still too squishy for that, phase walk is mostly useless in pve, operatives can stealth rez as well, so ?what is it sin bring to the table that operatives cannot despite better survivability?

 

about the tanking thing, you say sin are basically off tanks and that seems to be the received opinion, so basically both pt and jugg are better main tanks. Fair enogh operative still have a heals spec, that both can act as a main tank healer and an aoe healer, thereby being a must of for any serious raid group and sorc or merc being potentially better at the specific job, we can perform both if needed to a very good degree and being the easiest to play as well. (no reason to nerf medicine). Not saying that operative heals is like stike king of the hill in pvp.

I dont exactly know what the raid leaders said to snave (despite being in the same guild, i am a bit lazy logging imp side these days and asking him in game), but i imagine that still you want to have mara as a bloodthirst and predation bot and probably if you roll with 2 melee vengeance is now referred, for surviability and cc immunty issues. Otherwise i think snipers and mercs pretty much form the dps these days. the problem is not that operative are not viable, the problem is probably still that other specs just offer the edge more for progression raiding.

 

deception is a very good place pvp wise, but then again there arent that many player that can pull it off in group ranked anymore, and heck roudy can even make sorc healing work somehow.

 

and absolutely no, i think the both dps specs definitely need help and i crying for it for ages, but when it comes to sustained dps both seems fine, major issure is surviability.

 

and finally i ultimately dont disagree at that much, just some questions that popped up when reading this parts of this thread. Operative concerns are perfectly reasonably, i played both scoundrel and operative for quite some time now, and i do think snave did a good job (not just because he is kind a guild mate still, kind of a big deal and kind of less *** than he appears to, kind of the person that last year gave me hope in continuing playing the class as dps), i just wanna know.

 

 

Anyway my voice doesnt matter or will not matter. I gave up operative dps for pvp quite a while ago, and even though trying it again in last 6 months i am now at the point i dont enjoy it anymore.On top like snave, i will probably soon will be playing another game. (and yes i am not exactly what would call good ).

 

Operative where one of the most fun class to play in this game, and looking back i dont regret being stubborn and stupid liking them. It just lost interest i guess.

 

just quickly on the tank thing if youre a light armor tank in most every game youre going to have to be stuck with more add duty and mechanical works because of the way your class is normally. You have very good evasive abilities which make you very favorable for certaint raid aspects which the other classes cant do as well. its all give and take, PTs are better for AOE threat while jugs are nice damage sponges that are more situational with their aoe if no reflect.

 

For madness the buffs will translate very well into their PVE because of total damage increases on skills, force management being almost a joke i guess, ability to use shock in rotation again, procs for assassinate, less dot cliping(by way of decreasing duration but increasing damage) and less RNG. While i have no actual night mare numbers or anything but BW went about changing the spec in a way that will translate very well, the only true problems with madness atm is that they have no real burst(5-6k i believe) and they have target switching difficulties, but that is to be expected for a spec which focuses on DoT damage. Probably the strongest things they did for the spec were less dot cliping, less RNG and better force management. Less RNG is self explanitory you have to spend less time fishing for procs to get one of your main moves off so more damage and takes away from those unlucky moments where you go long periods of time with no proc. For PVE DoT clipping in a DoT focused spec is one of the worst things you can do. By changing the 2 extra seconds on crushing darkness to 16%(i believe check me) more damage to crushing darkness up front and DoT effects makes it so that it hits harder over all and less chance of you taking off the last 2 seconds of it by accident by jumping the gun on crushing darkness which is one of the biggest losses for DPS for less experienced players. This also makes managing your DoTs abit easier because it means less hold off on your Raze proc. Lastly with the energy increase they have less need for saber strike(auto attack) which is always a good way to increase dps, less auto attacks more actual attacks=slightly more damage and with extra energy they are able to get shock into their rotation, because of this they are now picking up chain shock again so dps boost there and more variety for them and slightly better burst at times. I believe Mknightrider was able to down Brontis NiM in madness, not needing to respec decept for that fight so i guess take that little bit with a grain of salt for improvement

[Icebergy]

You're a pretty terrible class rep if you actually have this attitude about this process. If Bioware made a mistake in this round of questions and answers it was in selecting you in the first place.

 

I hope that was just venting.

 

This is what I have came away from this thread with as well.

[Aikion]

Snave stepped up to organize this as both Operative and Scoundrel reps and their backup reps stopped playing. A job that only a few would choose to do. Any criticism leveled at him for being a "bad rep" should take this into account.

[Lemmeron]

Hi, I just wanted to jump in and thank snave for his hard work as class rep, lets face it - it is a **** job trying to coordinate peoples rants, opinions and personalities into something tangible and succinct like 3 questions for the devs and writing them in such a way as to not be too critical (however much it must have taken all his self control)

 

One thing I notice a lot in the operative forums is that so much discussion focuses on operative healers, and the dps specs seem to be more of an after thought.

 

It is very hard to get good info on the ways players who play concealment find ways to deal with the 2.7 nerfs (other than us crying ourselves to sleep not being able to knock people on their faces)

 

It has taken me a lot of hours getting beaten soundly in pvp and tweaking my gear to come to grips with 2.7 nerfs and the huge dmg buff to other classes - and i would like to apologise for not contributing to the questions. But for me when 2.7 went live - I stopped playing starwars for a week after the first night of pvp because I couldnt believe how badly it hurt my operative.

 

I know it is too late now for current questions, but the big things I would like to see for operative with the "slippery" theme the devs say we are suppose to have without huge defensive CD are these.

 

1. high in concealment tree (ie shadow operative elite) either a permanent 15-20% reduction to the duration of stun duration on us (which still fill resolve as normal to us) or it tied into countermeasures usable while stunned (then 25-50% reduction). IMO this is ideal as it forces players to consider if they want to blow their cc on a squishy operative with less effect - or save for another class with full effect and makes us at least a little "slippery" rather than just "squishy"

 

2. hidden strike OR acid blade gives a 15-20% alacrity debuff to our target for 4-6 seconds (cannot be done by op healers)

 

3. counter measures makes us drop from all players current target and focus target (we can be re-targeted straight away - but it would interrupt any cast on us (cannot be done by op healers)

 

4. even more unlikely but some form of additional in combat stealth of short duration (4 sec ?) so we can re-hidden strike / avoid focus for a sec.

 

5. for the love of God tie our 2.8 20% dr to something other than revitalizers or free up some points in the tree so we can take it without loosing our reduced cooldown on debilitate.

 

- Encypher (The Harbringer Server)

[Dropfall]

Going by what I just read in the responses for the Sage Class Rep Answers, prepare to be cluster****ed by the Devs.

[Icebergy]

Going by what I just read in the responses for the Sage Class Rep Answers, prepare to be cluster****ed by the Devs.

 

I thought those answers were really good.

[Dropfall]

I thought those answers were really good.

 

Lol, like being told a DPS Sorc shouldn't bubble himself in Ops ever; really good?

 

Snave has the right attitude, it 's nothing but a way to seem like they give a crap what you or I think.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Dropfall

[Liquor]

CU all over again. I won't go as far as saying it's NGE but it is big enough that it pissed off the community and we are divided.

 

Saw this in AoC as well. Dumbed down the game and changed core class abilities. It affected gameplay.

 

This is just the tip of what is to come. What happens to game balance when we still LvL 55 with 200QL armor ratings? You can not expect devs to balance with all the different builds out there. What happens to these abilities when they become available as you LvL up. They too weak for this gear. Does it improve with higher LvL gear?

 

We have players in game that can't even install their core class stat at LvL 55 trying to do ops. They join pugs with green gear levels below 55. Not everyone has min/max gear to test everything. It is a process.

 

If you're wanting changes based on your current build you failed the community by not taking these into consideration. The questions show how tunneled the vision is for this class. The answers will be very general and won't solve a thing. They will be left open for even more questions. We have seen this before.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Liquor

[ronniehenlau]

This is what I have came away from this thread with as well.

 

Snave isnt a class rep, he only stepped up lacking anybody else to do it. Im hoping these questions gets answered within 7 days, so I can give my opinion before my sub runs out!

[Adovir]

Snave isnt a class rep, he only stepped up lacking anybody else to do it. Im hoping these questions gets answered within 7 days, so I can give my opinion before my sub runs out!

 

It's supposed to be 2 weeks before you get your response

[Haystak]

Going by what I just read in the responses for the Sage Class Rep Answers, prepare to be cluster****ed by the Devs.

 

BOHICA

 

Only word that comes to mid when thinking of the answers we will get.

[FoE_Khorne]

Well this thread has certainly gained a.. few.. posts since my last visit to the forums. Honestly I havent bothered posting or checking because I was pretty pissed that we were pretty much ignored on the pts after the initial Focused feedback thread. Then all the subsequent threads and PM's about it were ignored while assassins and maras got many responses.... Hell they even posted on that deception thread. Im just really hoping they dont refer us to the changes that they made in 2.8. I agree with them, and even argued for 2 of them for some time..

 

But there are a few other small things that can be done to really improve QoL for us. With a TON more uncleasable dots incoming in 2.8 I feel that dps operative QoL is going to drop even farther. We really need evasive imperative to me moved into the lower tiers of one of the dps specs. Honestly that is the biggest change that I would like to see. Either that or cloaking screen needs to purge all negative effects when it is used. (could be tied to advanced cloaking) . Concealment isnt too far off of being rated viable IMO. Another small change would be moving Chem-resistant Inlays to either tier one of the medicine tree in place of Incisive Action or Precision Instruments or swapping it with Inclement Conditioning over in the concealment tree. I would prefer the latter of those options, but either would be nice. Obviously our set bonuses should be looked at as well. Just restating my thoughts.....

Edited May 29, 2014 by FoE_Khorne

[Adovir]

Well this thread has certainly gained a.. few.. posts since my last visit to the forums. Honestly I havent bothered posting or checking because I was pretty pissed that we were pretty much ignored on the pts after the initial Focused feedback thread. Then all the subsequent threads and PM's about it were ignored while assassins and maras got many responses.... Hell they even posted on that deception thread. Im just really hoping they dont refer us to the changes that they made in 2.8. I agree with them, and even argued for 2 of them for some time..

 

But there are a few other small things that can be done to really improve QoL for us. With a TON more uncleasable dots incoming in 2.8 I feel that dps operative QoL is going to drop even farther. We really need evasive imperative to me moved into the lower tiers of one of the dps specs. Honestly that is the biggest change that I would like to see. Either that or cloaking screen needs to purge all negative effects when it is used. (could be tied to advanced cloaking) . Concealment isnt too far off of being rated viable IMO. Another small change would be moving Chem-resistant Inlays to either tier one of the medicine tree in place of Incisive Action or Precision Instruments or swapping it with Inclement Conditioning over in the concealment tree. I would prefer the latter of those options, but either would be nice. Obviously our set bonuses should be looked at as well. Just restating my thoughts.....

 

Bro that didn't even cross my mind that the uncleansable DoTs were going to cause more QoL problems and less survivability. BW can no longer really say that we should be cleansing DoTs and such to try and survive longer bc we are essentially no longer able to get ride of tech or phys moves because the specs that use DoTs have. Form of immunity(before anyone says PT/merc they have 3 DoTs and cleans only removes 2 and in the 4.5 seconds a reapp is very easy). Essentially now cleans should be keybound for getting roots off or phys slows. So the only way to get any DoTs off of you blowing evasion is now required, but depending on what the comp of the group is you may have used it to survive a ravage/sniper burst so then resstealth will only be able to be used for offensive rotations for the next minuet, not as an intended escape aka less survival chances in a longer fight/arena.

 

Honestly I would prefer if they swapped deadly directive for chem resistant inlays because only healers use that any way and would go a long way to making us stronger any way. Since we now need to pretty much use evasion to get rid of any DoTs a change that would help but probably never come is have counter measures remove DoTs instead of evasion but they probably won't ever do this so I won't delve further into it.

 

Also since DoTs can be reapped to use during the window of evasion it already gets kinda difficult to run if you have a good DoTer fighting you if you're not mashing your combat stealth fast enough you'll probably get re DoTed and knocked out of stealth because of it.

[HaoZhao]

With a TON more uncleasable dots incoming in 2.8 I feel that dps operative QoL is going to drop even farther.

 

You mean the DOTs from annihilation and madness (assassin), two specs almost universally recognized as PVP's biggest jokes? Yeah, watch out for those madness assassins, fellow operatives. If they somehow live longer than 3 seconds after coming out of stealth, they might even get to use BOTH of their DOTs, and we can't have that!!

[Adovir]

You mean the DOTs from annihilation and madness (assassin), two specs almost universally recognized as PVP's biggest jokes? Yeah, watch out for those madness assassins, fellow operatives. If they somehow live longer than 3 seconds after coming out of stealth, they might even get to use BOTH of their DOTs, and we can't have that!!

 

They're getting a damage buff to all their dots and a survivability boost, also I know some pretty ****** madness sins that do pretty well in ranked

[Aikion]

From Dev Stream today:

(Full Video Link)

Link to Operative Discussion Time (37m17s)

 

Revitalizers/Stim boost 4 tick bug was fixed for 2.8.

 

I got in a question about Revitalizers turning Stim Boost into a half dps and half defensive ability, and suggested Countermeasures as a good place to put it instead. The response was they generally don't like creating these dps/defensive abilities. They examined a few places to put it, and decided to put it in Revitalizers for now. That may be re-examined, but the cooldown/healing/defense bonus would need reconsidered if moved to another ability.

 

Lethality is one of their top 3 specs to look at buffing/fixing issues for 2.9.

 

Separate discussion topic link.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Aikion

[HaoZhao]

They're getting a damage buff to all their dots and a survivability boost, also I know some pretty ****** madness sins that do pretty well in ranked

 

They'll melt away in seconds when focused, just like concealment melts away in seconds. The damage reduction attached to group taunt is nice and all, but that's all it is. It will increase your average lifespan by a few seconds and you still don't have any burst to show for it. Even with the survivability boost, they're still going to survive less than deception, so... I wouldn't get to worried about that. Madness sorcerer is still the, by far, the more lethal of the two.

[Milchmann]

 

 

Also, I know there is quite a bit of frustration in the Operative/Scoundrel community right now.

 

Are you joking, Eric?!?!? frustrated right now?!?

Almost all operatives/scoundrels have rerolled or quit the game, because they have been frustrated since release. DD-operatives / scoundrels have never been competetive in ranked-pvp.

[Liquor]

We'll this certainly turned into the fail we expected. LoL