Domination on The Ebon Hawk is now a farce

[Armonddd]

I dont really worry about Minelayers in open space, my point was that the HLC range when defending a Satellite is too usefull. They can just shoot back at a strike staying outside of the mine field, instead of being forced to act by either LOSing or leaving the node to get into laser or quad range.

 

While that would be an interesting and probably overall positive change for the game, it wouldn't really happen without reducing their range to ~4km.

 

Bombers with BLCs?

[Whizzer_]

While that would be an interesting and probably overall positive change for the game, it wouldn't really happen without reducing their range to ~4km.

 

Bombers with BLCs?

Well BLCs or Lasers would have been my choice, but looks like that ship has sailed, Bioware will hardly remove components from ships.

I would have preferrred them to be awesome at close range around a node, but vulnerable to Strikes with HLCs. Would give Strikes a job beside being Gunship/ decent T2 Scout bait

[Nizzemancer]

Bomber base OR UPGRADED pitch/yaw: 1.32 / 0.78

Strike base pitch/yaw: 1.58/0.96

2x upgraded strike pitch/yaw: 1.78/1.16

 

 

If you are getting outturned by a bomber, that's on you. Pretty hardcore on you.

 

I was turning as fast as possible, when I came around he started firing on me again so he turned around just as fast as me, if I start turning when we pass each other how is that on me? my reflexes aren't that bad. and once I start turning all I can do is wait for him to come into view again while following the indicator. There's definately something fishy there.

 

Regardless of that though mines need a nerf. Hell, why are there even player deployed mines in this game? If there was going to be mines they would have been deployed by larger vessels anyway. It makes no strategic sense at all.

[General_Brass]

 

Regardless of that though mines need a nerf. Hell, why are there even player deployed mines in this game? If there was going to be mines they would have been deployed by larger vessels anyway. It makes no strategic sense at all.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minelayer

 

Scroll down to Aerial Minelaying.

[-Streven-]

Well BLCs or Lasers would have been my choice, but looks like that ship has sailed, Bioware will hardly remove components from ships.

I would have preferrred them to be awesome at close range around a node, but vulnerable to Strikes with HLCs. Would give Strikes a job beside being Gunship/ decent T2 Scout bait

 

You really don't know what you're talking about. Strikes with heavy lasers are the best ship in the game at killing bombers hands down. They are excellent at dogfighting and just fine at tracking down and killing gunships.

 

I am truly shocked at how few quality strike pilots there are. I'm even more shocked at all the people who take the position that strikes are nothing more than bait for other ships.

[Armonddd]

You really don't know what you're talking about. Strikes with heavy lasers are the best ship in the game at killing bombers hands down. They are excellent at dogfighting and just fine at tracking down and killing gunships.

 

Oh... that's right, I forgot they updated concs and torps so they don't need to maintain line of sight during the lock-on, and also added AoE to take out the pets littered around the nodes. Yeah, strikes are definitely better than gunships at taking out bombers.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

You really don't know what you're talking about. Strikes with heavy lasers are the best ship in the game at killing bombers hands down. They are excellent at dogfighting and just fine at tracking down and killing gunships.

 

I am truly shocked at how few quality strike pilots there are. I'm even more shocked at all the people who take the position that strikes are nothing more than bait for other ships.

 

Yeah, I haven't run into too many that are good. I love my strikes and know a couple good strike pilots both pubside and impside, but they're much more rare than the gunships, scouts, and bombers.

[-Streven-]

Oh... that's right, I forgot they updated concs and torps so they don't need to maintain line of sight during the lock-on, and also added AoE to take out the pets littered around the nodes. Yeah, strikes are definitely better than gunships at taking out bombers.

 

I know you dont have much respect for strikes but for all you stat crunching reality has shown me time and again how good strikes are especially against bombers. Nothing clears mines and drones as efficiently as heavy lasers. Gunships are good, don't get me wrong, but they take a little longer to charge up and line up their shots and can't get to the backside of a sat as quickly. Also, I've yet to meet a BLC abuser who could convince me that I'm gimping myself taking out my starguard.

 

You might try this:

HLC

Ion cannon

Double volley clusters

Retro thrusters

Quick shields

As much thrust as you can find, forget about turning.

 

Kill bomber droppings first. Then ion, cluster, heavy, cluster....boom. If they turn to fight I hit em with suppression. If they circle around it just takes a little longer but not much if 1v1.

Edited April 17, 2014 by -Streven-

[-Streven-]

Yeah, I haven't run into too many that are good. I love my strikes and know a couple good strike pilots both pubside and impside, but they're much more rare than the gunships, scouts, and bombers.

 

I love my scouts just as much as my strikes but you're right, there are few quality strike pilots out there. Good use of thrusting and offline tactics allow you to dogfight with anyone. If BLCs weren't so OP the tier 2 scouts would have much to fear from strikes.

[Armonddd]

I know you dont have much respect for strikes but for all you stat crunching reality has shown me time and again how good strikes are especially against bombers.

 

I actually have a lot of respect for good strikes. One of my best buds mains strike, and he's great at it. Strikes are, in general, pretty good against bombers -- just not on a node, where bombers are problematic. Heavies and quads are simply poor while circling a satellite, and if you're not circling the satellite, the bomber's LoSing you.

 

But no two ways about it -- if you're a strike and you smack a bomber with pretty much anything but clusters, he's gonna hurt.

 

Nothing clears mines and drones as efficiently as heavy lasers.

 

...no, I'm pretty sure the AoE one-shots from ion railguns are better at that.

 

Gunships are good, don't get me wrong, but they take a little longer to charge up and line up their shots and can't get to the backside of a sat as quickly.

 

This is the inherent problem in trying to dislodge all bombers -- everything relies on line of sight, and nodes disrupt that so easily. The major upside of railguns is that they don't need several seconds of line of sight to land the shot -- just a split second when the bomber makes a mistake and pokes his head out.

 

Also, I've yet to meet a BLC abuser who could convince me that I'm gimping myself taking out my starguard.

 

Well, I mean, BLCs aren't exactly great against bombers.

 

I still do it, though, because I'm crazy and it's fun.

[-Streven-]

Well, I mean, BLCs aren't exactly great against bombers.

 

I still do it, though, because I'm crazy and it's fun.

 

Great, now you've Patsy Cline stuck in my head.

[Sindariel]

Kill bomber droppings first. Then ion, cluster, heavy, cluster....boom. If they turn to fight I hit em with suppression. If they circle around it just takes a little longer but not much if 1v1.

 

Ion? Cluster? Heavy?

 

Short range Ion cannons, which bring you right into the explosion range of the bombers mines, which he's pooping out every 15s?

Clusters, with the shortest range of all missiles?

Heavy lasers, which are easy to avoid at close range, so you have to pull back after switching from ion cannons, and then you're out of lock-on range of your cluster missiles?

 

Seriously, but your build has absolutely zero synergy and Heavy Lasers biggest strength, it's shield penetration, is completely useless, when you pair it with Ion cannons.

 

You either go Quads/Rapids - Ion - Cluster for short-mid range, or Quads/Rapids - Heavy - Conc for mid-long range.

[DrLunchmeat]

Ion? Cluster? Heavy?

 

Seriously, but your build has absolutely zero synergy and Heavy Lasers biggest strength, it's shield penetration, is completely useless, when you pair it with Ion cannons.

 

You either go Quads/Rapids - Ion - Cluster for short-mid range, or Quads/Rapids - Heavy - Conc for mid-long range.

 

Im gonna disagree with you here, Its a dumb idea to attack the seismic turds that litter sats with this loadout, but its not as bad as you're saying it is either:

 

its not about "synergy", the benefit of running ions/clusters/HLC is having both a medium and a short ranged counter to enemies. With ions and clusters, you can put power to engines, and chase scouts down using ions to strip shields and clusters to finish them, conserving your blaster pool. Heavies are for anything that gets out of your 5k ion/cluster range. Its a general approach instead of over specialization, which comes in handy in a T1 SF which is kind of made to be a generalist spaceship. You have the ability to use two primary weapons in a starguard/rycer, why restrict yourself to one range?

 

Also Rapids suck so hard, and should never be put on anything, much less a strike, which has so many better options.

Edited April 17, 2014 by DrLunchmeat

[-Streven-]

Ion? Cluster? Heavy?

 

Short range Ion cannons, which bring you right into the explosion range of the bombers mines, which he's pooping out every 15s?

Clusters, with the shortest range of all missiles?

Heavy lasers, which are easy to avoid at close range, so you have to pull back after switching from ion cannons, and then you're out of lock-on range of your cluster missiles?

 

Seriously, but your build has absolutely zero synergy and Heavy Lasers biggest strength, it's shield penetration, is completely useless, when you pair it with Ion cannons.

 

You either go Quads/Rapids - Ion - Cluster for short-mid range, or Quads/Rapids - Heavy - Conc for mid-long range.

 

Again, HLCs to clear the way before engaging. You're also not paying attention to the retro thrusters in that build. They shoot you right back to a nice range to finish off with HLCs after shields are stripped. You can take out a bomber in less than 7 seconds easily. I think that gets me well under the 15 seconds you gave me. Retros also give you plenty of time for at least two volleys of clusters which is why I'm running them over concussion currently.

 

Plus bombers really aren't all that hard to track with HLCs even at close range. They are slow moving targets after all.

Edited April 17, 2014 by -Streven-

[-Streven-]

Im gonna disagree with you here, Its a dumb idea to attack the seismic turds that litter sats with this loadout, but its not as bad as you're saying it is either:

 

its not about "synergy", the benefit of running ions/clusters/HLC is having both a medium and a short ranged counter to enemies. With ions and clusters, you can put power to engines, and chase scouts down using ions to strip shields and clusters to finish them, conserving your blaster pool. Heavies are for anything that gets out of your 5k ion/cluster range. Its a general approach instead of over specialization, which comes in handy in a T1 SF which is kind of made to be a generalist spaceship. You have the ability to use two primary weapons in a starguard/rycer, why restrict yourself to one range?

 

Also Rapids suck so hard, and should never be put on anything, much less a strike, which has so many better options.

 

This pretty much sums up why HLCs. They have too many uses to get rid of them on this build. I use clusters instead of lasers at close range. If the target is near death you can even retro to put yourself in better range for HLCs to finish the job.

 

Why wouldn't you clear the mines and drones first. HLCs put you ~6900m out and you can pop three mines in three shots. Turrets go down in three shots and drones go down in about 4. HLCs are great at clearing junk off a sat while staying well out of range of all but the drones which is why those die first.

Edited April 17, 2014 by -Streven-

[Sindariel]

Again, HLCs to clear the way before engaging. You're also not paying attention to the retro thrusters in that build. They shoot you right back to a nice range to finish off with HLCs after shields are stripped. You can take out a bomber in less than 7 seconds easily. I think that gets me well under the 15 seconds you gave me. Retros also give you plenty of time for at least two volleys of clusters which is why I'm running them over concussion currently.

 

Plus bombers really aren't all that hard to track with HLCs even at close range. They are slow moving targets after all.

 

Your build may work against the average braindead "zombie" bomber pilot who's sittting quietly in the corner of a sat and barely manages to press 2 buttons, but you'll never kill a skilled bomber pilot this way.

 

When im defending a satellite with my minelayer, i'm hugging the walls so tightly that it's very easy to LOS any attacker. Even battle scouts with burst laser/cluster combo and their huge firing arc can barely hit me, let alone your ion cannons. And the few shots that manage to hit my shields are easily countered with engine to shield converter.

Killing me in 7 seconds? Never!

The only way to get me off the node is a combined attack from different angles with long range weapons.

 

And that's exactly the reason why Nemaru's build is so super effective and hard to counter (in the hands of a skilled pilot).

 

Why wouldn't you clear the mines and drones first. HLCs put you ~6900m out and you can pop three mines in three shots. Turrets go down in three shots and drones go down in about 4. HLCs are great at clearing junk off a sat while staying well out of range of all but the drones which is why those die first.

 

I'm always happy when my enemies kill my mines, because that saves me the time and effort to do it myself.

There are always some other enemy ships around the satellite and by killing my mines, they're just killing their own teammates.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Sindariel

[-Streven-]

I'm always happy when my enemies kill my mines, because that saves me the time and effort to do it myself.

There are always some other enemy ships around the satellite and by killing my mines, they're just killing their own teammates.

 

What you said about LOSing by a good bomber pilot is true. It does makes things more difficult but not terribly so. I've yet to see a bomber move so quickly I couldn't get a lock on him with clusters. Newsflash, ions do much higher damage than BLCs. All things being equal if its 1v1 you're going down.

 

As far as me killing your mines. I get that other friendlies may be in the area but if they are stupid enough to fly into a minefield their death probably isn't going to impact much. That has been one of my points recently in several threads, nobody who's paying attention should ever get hurt by a mine. They are too easy to avoid and kill. If you want to survive and beat minelayers then killing mines first is the correct tactic.

[-Streven-]

Your build may work against the average braindead "zombie" bomber pilot who's sittting quietly in the corner of a sat and barely manages to press 2 buttons, but you'll never kill a skilled bomber pilot this way.

 

Never huh? I guess there aren't any skilled bombers on Harbinger then because I've yet to find one I couldn't kill.

[Sindariel]

Newsflash, ions do much higher damage than BLCs.

 

I wasn't talking about the damage. I was talking about the firing arc. The damage of your weapons is meaningless if you can't hit me. If it's easy for me to avoid BLCs, than it's even easier to avoid Ions. That was my point.

You might hit me with cluster missiles, but their damage is so low, that it can easily be restored with a tap on shield energy converter and shield projector.

 

I primarily fly scouts and strikes myself, so i know how to fly in a way to avoid their attacks.

 

Never huh? I guess there aren't any skilled bombers on Harbinger then because I've yet to find one I couldn't kill.

 

Are they running the build that's been discussed in this thread?

 

I don't say it's impossible to kill them, but if they get killed this easily like you described than they either suck, or they are already weakened from previous attacks.

 

Edit:

Let's face it. Most (not all) bomber pilots ARE unskilled, braindead zombies. That's why they "fly" a bomber after all.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Sindariel

[Rollory]

Part of the reason minelayers in general, and Nem's build in particular, are so powerful is that so few people are using charged plating, which is the direct counter to them. Charged plating has so many drawbacks already that it is only worth running as part of a specialized anti-bomber build. But few people are willing to use charged plating because it makes them so vulnerable to slug railgun and other armor-piercing weapons. That is the main reason seismic + interdiction mines are so powerful in the current meta: the counter to them exists but very few people are willing to use this counter because they don't want to give up their survivability against other ship types.

 

This is pretty much spot on. That said, I think it's more in people's heads for not using it, and not because the game itself is lacking something critical.

 

I've been running a charged plating / hyper beacon minelayer pretty consistently this week on both republic and imperial sides and I am totally in love with it. I consider it distinctly superior to Nem's shield-tank build given the current loadouts people are running, and I'm ready to start experimenting with charged plating on my T2 and command strikes also.

 

With deflection armor, M1-4X or Xalek on defense, and the base 5% damage reduction, you get up to 39% base damage reduction. Charged plating boosts that to 99% for 19 seconds out of every 30. A single charged plating seismic/interdiction minelayer can take out 2 or 3 shield-tank seismic/interdiction minelayers - I know this because I've done it several times. There actually is some skill to it - you need to track when they're dropping their mines to know when best to hit your charged plating and when and how to deliberately trigger theirs so as to best get them with your own. If you're flying it right, you take negligible damage from them and either kill them or chase them off - especially with heavy lasers, you can finish them in a head-to-head without much risk to yourself because you'll have taken so much less hull damage. You're also essentially immune to non-rocket/burst scouts, or strikes trying to use ions or rapid-fire, which is are typical ways to try to chase a sat-hugging bomber. (Before anyone hisses, I happen to like rapid-fire and find it a completely understandable and valid weapon choice. It does give hilariously bad results in this case. You haven't lived until you've sat there with your hull already in the red and watched a guy you know is an ace blast away at you for 5 or 6 seconds with absolutely no effect. Could practically see the question marks orbiting his head)

 

Meanwhile, you're tremendously at risk from heavy laser / protorp strikes and slug rail gunships, which punch right through the damage reduction. It takes just one or two of those to really hurt you. In fact, a T2 strike with the exact same charged plating defense build is basically perfect for clearing sats - it only needs to fear railgun drones and starting off head-to-head with the bomber, but the strike's greater maneuverability should let it easily avoid that. Two gunships, or a gunship and a strike, if operating without any opposition from the minelayer's friends can pretty easily nail the minelayer and kill it quickly - entirely because the charged plating minelayer can't regenerate its defenses quickly the same way the shield-tank one can.

 

This mostly solves Nem's challenge about facing a team composed entirely of seismic/interdiction minelayers. If they're pure shield, just a few charged plating ships will totally disrupt them. If they're split between shield and plating, the game gets interesting; the opposing team has to figure out which to target with what attacks, but it's entirely doable. It DOES take a certain level of skill on the opposing team which the minelayer team doesn't need.

 

So the scissors-paper-rock game is still on. Shield tank minelayer kills most things in close quarters. Charged plating minelayer kills shield tank minelayer, and anything else without armor penetration; strike and/or gunship kills charged plating minelayer.

 

Remaining problems: you need to know what to do, and you need to have someone on your team with a ship configured correctly to be able to take down the shield-tank minelayers. Neither is guaranteed. The shield-tank minelayers still provide a huge advantage against inexperienced pilots, and the charged-plating minelayer can be a really nasty surprise for a team that isn't prepared for it. But, I'm not convinced there's a large qualitative difference between these sorts of things and 2-ship noobs trying to approach a sat and getting 2-shotted by starter gunships.

 

Rhodogast / Kelril, The Ebon Hawk

[Nemarus]

 

I've been running a charged plating / hyper beacon minelayer pretty consistently this week on both republic and imperial sides and I am totally in love with it. I consider it distinctly superior to Nem's shield-tank build given the current loadouts people are running, and I'm ready to start experimenting with charged plating on my T2 and command strikes also.

 

So the scissors-paper-rock game is still on. Shield tank minelayer kills most things in close quarters. Charged plating minelayer kills shield tank minelayer, and anything else without armor penetration; strike and/or gunship kills charged plating minelayer.

 

 

I had tried Charged Plating on my Minelayer when 2.6 first dropped, but because there were so few other S/I Minelayers, it wasn't really needed, and the Overcharged Shield build was superior.

 

Now that everyone and their dog are running SIMs, of course I've switched to Charged Plating on my own. But that's just another reason why this whole thing is stupid: once again, the best counter to the SIM is itself.

 

Already the SIM was already extra resilient to S/I damage because of its hull points and Armor. Now let's make it one of the four ships in the game that can take Charged Plating too! In a game of Rock Paper Scissors, you don't make the Rock its own best counter.

 

And as for those three other ships that can take Charged Plating, the Rycer is immediately discounted as a potential counter because it doesn't have an Armor component. So even when Charged Plating is active it still takes considerable hull damage.

 

The Quell and Imperium, on the other hand, have some potential. Both can equip EMP Missiles, which are helpful (but not great) at slowing down SIM DPS.

 

The Quell also has the advantage of having HLC's (which ignore Charged Plating) and a variety of other offensive missiles.

 

The Imperium's offense is much weaker, and it doesn't have a way to cut through Charged Plating. On the other hand, it has Repair Probes, which lets it repair incidental hull damage it suffers when Charged Plating is on cooldown.

 

I've been experimenting with both, running Charged Plating. The problem with using the Quell and HLC's as a counter to CP SIM's is the line of sight problem. Even though you can survive the mines, you really can't use HLC effectively if you're engaged closely with the circling Bomber. And even if you could, if you don't keep Interdiction Mines suppressed using EMP Missiles (which are hard to lock with at close range), then they slow you, making pursuit of the Bomber impossible.

 

Your other option is to park at the bottom or top of the satellite and use EMP Missile, HLC's and your other missile to range the Bomber down. But you've still got the issue of the Bomber flipping to the other side of the satellite, and you're also leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to other enemy fire. And since you're not in the minefield, Charged Plating isn't really all the valuable and you'd probably be better off taking something else.

 

As for the Imperium, if you load it up with Charged Plating, Light or Rapid lasers, you can dive right under the satellite with the Bomber and park on its butt, spewing lasers into its rear. This works decently ... unless that Bomber has Charged Plating, in which case you're only able to damage it 11 out of every 30 seconds. Still, I have killed single SIM's of both varieties this way (which is why in my original post I said the Imperium is a decent counter to a single SIM). You still have to keep Interdiction Mines suppressed though, either with EMP Missile or by staying so tight on the Bomber that your lasers instantly destroy any mines it drops. And that is hard to do. And if you miss just one Interdiction Mine, you are grievously slowed, and you sometimes even have a hard time moving off the node before your Charged Plating runs out. Plus, even if you do move off the node, that means that Defense Turrets are going to start spawning, which the Imperium is not awesomely equipped to kill quickly.

 

But regardless, the moment a second SIM shows up, it doesn't matter if you have 6 Imperiums. The game is over and your only hope is that the enemy's other node is less defended.

 

Yes, Charged Plating creates a tiny, strange little Rock Paper Scissors game. But it's totally lopsided. You've basically got this:

 

SIM with Overcharged Shields

Hard counter to: all Scouts, all Dronecarriers, T1 Strikes, and T2 and T3 Strikes not running Charged Plating

(and 1 such SIM can counter multiple of the above because of AOE damage)

 

SIM with Charged Plating

Hard counter to: all Scouts, all Dronecarriers, T1 Strikes, and T2 and T3 Strikes not running Charged Plating

Moderate counter to: SIM Shield build

(and 1 such SIM can counter multiple of the above because of AOE damage)

 

Quell with HLC's

Soft counter to: SIM Charged Plating build

 

Imperium with Charged Plating

Soft counter to: SIM Shield build, SIM Charged Plating build

(and that soft counter is only in a 1v1 -- 2+v2+ will always go to the SIM)

 

This is hardly a balanced game of RPS. And SIM's (of either variety) still create a hard exclusion zone for the vast majority of ships/builds in the game (including all newbie ships/builds).

 

And in general, if you are flying Charged Plating and you aren't staying tight on the node, you're going to be fodder for BLC's, HLC's and Slugs. Which means you need to stay on the node to stay alive (because of LOS protection). Which means you might as well be flying a SIM yourself.

 

What I'd love to see is the SIM get stripped of Charged Plating (so that it is not the ship that is best protected from its own offense), and instead add Charged Plating to the Dronecarrier and maybe even the Bloodmark. Then each major class would have at least one CP build, and the SIM would no longer be so protected against itself.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Nemarus

[Rollory]

Now that everyone and their dog are running SIMs, of course I've switched to Charged Plating on my own. But that's just another reason why this whole thing is stupid: once again, the best counter to the SIM is itself.

 

That's just not true. It would be true if it was repeated iterations. Instead it's just one: shield to plating. After that, adding more plated minelayers doesn't help (plated minelayers are no good against other plated minelayers), and the same pair of strikes and/or gunships can take each one down with no additional trouble - just time. Stacking plated minelayers doesn't improve defense effectiveness at all, because the attackers can easily take them down from outside mine range.

 

The problem with using the Quell and HLC's as a counter to CP SIM's is the line of sight problem.

 

No, it's not. I specifically mentioned using TWO ships to kill the minelayer. There is no line of sight problem at all in that case. Rhint and Itkovian, for example - there's just not much the minelayer can do if it doesn't have any support. Killing a minelayer solo is hard - sure; killing a sat-hugging scout solo is hard too when that scout knows to keep the sat between you and him. You shouldn't be trying to do it solo. You can't make fully informed judgements about difficulty or balance based on solo attacks on a sat. If you CAN take a sat solo, that's good piloting on your part and probably a mistake or two on the defender's part, but whether you can or can't isn't dispositive as to the effectiveness of the defending ship overall, because it's a very particular situation.

 

I also don't know why you describe the plated minelayer as being a "moderate" counter to the shield one. It takes the shielder down as fast as the shielder takes down everything else.

 

And SIM's (of either variety) still create a hard exclusion zone for the vast majority of ships/builds in the game (including all newbie ships/builds).

 

Leaving aside the newbie issue, that's what minelayers are supposed to do. That, and having no LOS problems when attacking a sat, are what minelayers can do that no other ship can. I don't see these things as problems.

 

Whether the high-end game should be balanced to not allow newbie-ineffectiveness situations is an entirely different discussion.

 

What I'd love to see is the SIM get stripped of Charged Plating (so that it is not the ship that is best protected from its own offense), and instead add Charged Plating to the Dronecarrier and maybe even the Bloodmark

 

Terrible idea. The very first situations where I really took note of seismics was seeing them clear a whole swath of sentry drones in one boom. You're putting the responsibility of killing the minelayer on a ship that can't possibly catch it - it would have to set up drones some distance off the sat, which takes time, and they can be shot down really easily by the minelayer. The command scout in practice will have a giant hassle to hunt the shielder down and do enough damage fast enough to kill it. Either of those is worse than the current situation.

 

Rhodogast / Kelril, The Ebon Hawk

[Nemarus]

That's just not true. It would be true if it was repeated iterations. Instead it's just one: shield to plating. After that, adding more plated minelayers doesn't help (plated minelayers are no good against other plated minelayers), and the same pair of strikes and/or gunships can take each one down with no additional trouble - just time. Stacking plated minelayers doesn't improve defense effectiveness at all, because the attackers can easily take them down from outside mine range.

 

Time is victory in Domination. And right now the fastest way to remove a SIM--whether it has Charged Plating or Overcharged Shield--is with another SIM. Why? Because another SIM doesn't have to chase or aim. All it needs to do is circle and place its mines. Yes, Charged Plating will slow it down, and a Charged Plating SIM will outlast an Overcharged SIM, but regardless, it's still the most efficient way to put one down.

 

No, it's not. I specifically mentioned using TWO ships to kill the minelayer. There is no line of sight problem at all in that case. Rhint and Itkovian, for example - there's just not much the minelayer can do if it doesn't have any support. Killing a minelayer solo is hard - sure; killing a sat-hugging scout solo is hard too when that scout knows to keep the sat between you and him. You shouldn't be trying to do it solo. You can't make fully informed judgements about difficulty or balance based on solo attacks on a sat. If you CAN take a sat solo, that's good piloting on your part and probably a mistake or two on the defender's part, but whether you can or can't isn't dispositive as to the effectiveness of the defending ship overall, because it's a very particular situation.

 

 

You say two Strikes working in concert can take down a defending SIM. Not as fast and dependably as two attacking SIM's can. That's true even if the defending SIM is running Charged Plating. Don't believe me? Let's do some math.

 

Upgraded Seismic and Interdiction mines combine to do ~1100 damage. Through 39% DR, they do 671 damage. If they need to chew through 2000 hull, that means it will take 3 volleys to destroy a Bomber running a DR build. Let's say I'm a Charged Plating SIM defending a node. Two SIMs come to challenge me--let's assume they are running Charged Plating as well. I might have some mines already out, but if the attacking SIMs are smart they'll take them out with HLC's on approach. They do so, and so I drop a new pair.

 

Now we all fire off Charged Plating. The attackers set off my mines and deploy their own. I trigger theirs but take no real damage due to CP. 19 seconds pass. CP fades off everyone. If the two attacking Bombers are smart, they will delay a second, let me drop my mines and eat the damage from them (they each take 671 damage). Then, with the space clear they both drop their mines. I now take 2 IM's and 2 SM's to the face, for a total of 1342 damage. One more volley from either Bomber will destroy me. Luckily they can't deploy a new volley before we all put Charged Plating back up, which essentially puts us all back at square one. But I'm doomed either way, because their damage comes twice as fast as I can--this is the primary problem with Bomber stacking. I'll be dead as soon as Charged Plating fades again. So my total life is around 50 seconds.

 

Now sure, two Strikes, working in perfect tandem to cover the bottom and top of a satellite with HLC's, can cut through 2000 Hull faster than 50 seconds. The thing is, so could two attacking SIM's. While I pop Charged Plating, the two attacking SIM's could move to top and bottom of the satellite and HLC me down. Once again, anything a Strike could do to counter me, another SIM could do equally or better.

 

And if I'm only defending against one attacker, then a Strike has no chance to dislodge me in timely fashion due to LOS, whereas another CP SIM has at least a 50% chance of winning a battle of attrition with me.

 

I also don't know why you describe the plated minelayer as being a "moderate" counter to the shield one. It takes the shielder down as fast as the shielder takes down everything else.

 

Let's look at the math again. Bombers have either 2000 hull with 39% DR or 2400 hull with 19% DR. Either one is going to last a lot longer against Seismic and Interdiction Mines than even the burliest Scout (950 hull, 29% DR) or Strike (1450 hull, 34% DR).

 

Leaving aside the newbie issue, that's what minelayers are supposed to do. That, and having no LOS problems when attacking a sat, are what minelayers can do that no other ship can. I don't see these things as problems.

 

If that's what Minelayers are supposed to do, then why can't you do it with Concussion, Ion or Seeker Mines? Why are Seismic and Interdiction Mines the only viable options for excluding {all Scouts, all Dronecarriers, all Gunships, all T1 Strikes, and all T2 and T3 Strikes without Charged Plating} from approaching a node?

 

Either those other mine types are sorely underpowered for purposes of allowing a minelayer to do what it is "supposed to do" or that is not what Minelayers are supposed to do (not to that extent anyway) and Seismic and Interdiction Mines are overpowered.

 

I look at Concussion and Seeker Mines and Drones and I see weapons that are all very good at excluding Scouts from approaching a node (which I do believe is what Bombers in general are supposed to do--be a hard area denial counter to Scouts). But those other Mines/Drones do not prohibit Strikes or other Bomber builds from approaching a node. Only Seismics/Interdictions affect such a broad swath of ship classes and build types.

[LilSaihah]

Generally I agree, I don't know if it's really worth getting too much into specifics of what I disagree with or not. Gonna respond to suggestions, though:

 

I think that 60/40 CD is too long. I think that a 40-50/30-35 would be a healthy CD.

 

Seismic Mine only damaging one fighter doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint.

 

Making mines deal damage to their owner would be... Interesting. Personally, I think that if friendly fire's going to be there, it should be there for everyone- A triggered mine should deal damage to everyone and everything, including turrets, other mines, the minelayer and both friendly and enemy fighters.

 

Splash damage distribution sounds... Weird. As with one-fighter damage, it doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint- These mines seem to cause a blast from their position, and anything struck would be struck with the same force as anyone else, unless there's something in the way.

 

An interference mechanic would be interesting. If friendly fire were implemented, a too-tightly packed minefield would self-destruct.

 

Interdiction mine getting its damage changed to have no shield piercing makes sense. I don't know if it needs to be buffed in return; I think that Interdiction's secondary effect should be the main reason you drop it, not the damage.

 

An EM field kinda-sorta makes sense, but personally, I think it would be better off if it were a new ability rather than replacing EM field. Perhaps something like a "disruptor probe".

 

Satellite capture range is finicky. Increasing the size of the capture zone on its own wouldn't actually do much to fix the problem, I don't think- Node humping would still be the best option for a bomber, and non-bombers would still need to go in there to try to dislodge them. I'm somewhat inclined to say some decap option is the best.

Edited April 24, 2014 by LilSaihah

[Zoom_VI]

The shroud of the mines has fallen, begun the bomber wars have.