Domination on The Ebon Hawk is now a farce

[Kuciwalker]

Personally I suspect that the whole armor/armor piercing mechanic needs another look. The way it's set up now there's to much tendency toward extreme rock paper scissors style hard countering. It's just that before the bombers showed up no one had any reason to care about the problems that posed.

 

I've already answered this issue, repeatedly. It is an incredibly easy fix.

 

1. All 100% armor pen becomes 50% armor pen.
   
2. Charged plating's uptime is reduced a lot and DR boost is reduced moderately (no 99% DR).
   

[FridgeLM]

You're assuming literally nothing is happening other than him pooping out a seismic every 15 seconds (has to be 15, because it'll only do 37% damage if it's fully upgraded vs your mastered reinforced armor + shields companion) and you're pushing hydrospanner after the first hit. That situation never actually happens, though.

 

It's a situation you called a three-shot, which is, as I mentioned, disingenuous. Of course it doesn't happen that often.

 

All he has to do is gamble that you're running a full evasion build (which a lot of people do) and hit you with two HLC rounds. Two HLC rounds + 2 seismics = dead evasion quell (remember that he can stack seismics on his own, much less with a buddy). 1 seismic + 1 interdiction > half a strike's hull, and at that point he can face tank you better than you can face tank him. Against your build specifically (I'm assuming you don't have charged plating or you would have mentioned it by now), he's popping out 1052 damage every 15 seconds, all straight to hull. If he turns around to face tank you, he only needs to get off 11 shots (5.5 seconds) for the kill, and that's assuming he never breaks your shields. Can you kill a bomber with charged plating in 5.5 seconds? I'd be pretty surprised.

 

I don't run evasion. If he pokes his head out at me on my approach and takes 5.5 seconds to do anything, I kill engines and face tank him without taking mine damage. Without node hugging he eats an ion missile, which annihilates 54% of his shield strength (1580 out of 2925 if he's like me and takes every available shield capacity upgrade/companion) and quad lasers. If he takes even .1 seconds longer he also eats a concussion with 100% arpen. If any bomber eats an ion and concussion missile they are dead meat.

 

I have shield power converter just like he should be running, but my engine power isn't drained by ions while his are.

 

There's no winning this fight for the bomber if he's stupid enough to try and face check my Quell. His best bet is to node hug.

 

Edit: was looking at the wrong bomber re: shield strength, doesn't change my argument. Edited the values, removed an error re: debuffed engine speeds.

Edited April 25, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Armonddd]

Speaking of exaggeration, 2/3 of the strike builds can get close to bombers just fine.

 

Please specify this statement. Do you mean two of the three types of strike fighters? Within those types, there are several viable builds; I'd be surprised if two thirds of the number of people flying strikes stack max armor.

 

The other thing is, strikes don't generally want or need to get close to bombers. They have the munitions to fight from outside the minefield.

 

Reduced to 1% or 6% the hull damage from one or even two SIM bombers is perfectly manageable.

 

Only bombers get the 1% (strike base is 5% armor, not 10%). Strikes get 6% (perfectly manageable) or 15% if they sacrifice the crew member (still mostly reasonable).

 

Personally I suspect that the whole armor/armor piercing mechanic needs another look. The way it's set up now there's to much tendency toward extreme rock paper scissors style hard countering. It's just that before the bombers showed up no one had any reason to care about the problems that posed.

 

I agree, and will even extend that sentiment to all forms of defense in GSF.

 

The problem is that passive defense requires zero skill. Charged Plating feels like it was intended to be the Distortion Field of armor, but its duration had to be ginormous to make up for the fact that armor only applies to hull damage... which reduces the skill requirement.

 

Balancing active vs passive defense is tricky, and in a lot of cases active defense will win out because it has a much stronger effect when used skillfully (I've often, paradoxically, found myself preferring plate armor targets with no defensive buttons to cloth armor targets with unknown defensive buttons).

 

I think evasion should be removed entirely with the exception of distortion field and engine abilities, both of which would grant 100% evasion for the duration (and distortion field nerfed down to 1.5 seconds, or 3 seconds upgraded). Charged Plating should also be nerfed down to around 5 second duration (possibly removing shield piercing to compensate, I dunno), and base armor for all ships bumped across the board. From there, deflection armor and structural support can be tweaked as need be. I also think armor penetration should be removed from everything but debuffs and torpedoes (thermite and proton both), rewarding both skilled play and party support.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't care that they don't use them. Battle scout problems are not limited to BLCs, blaster overcharge is also part of it. I do agree that BLCs happen to be objectively the best primary weapon component on any ship that can use them, but it's the combination of everything they have that is an increase to their damage output that is the problem, as compared to strike fighters who have sidegrade system abilities (or now with the command variant, utility system abilities).

 

BO is not the best burst damage ability. TT is.

[FridgeLM]

BO is not the best burst damage ability. TT is.

 

That's not that cut and dry.

[Kuciwalker]

That's not that cut and dry.

 

Average != Burst. TT has incredible burst synergy with Concentrated Fire, within BLC shots potentially in the 2K range. A huge fraction of BO's damage comes from ROF, which is actually not a burst-synergistic - over the period of the burst a large fraction of the time (time-weighted not probability-weighted) your DPS isn't actually any higher.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Armonddd]

Average != Burst. TT has incredible burst synergy with Concentrated Fire, within BLC shots potentially in the 2K range. A huge fraction of BO's damage comes from ROF, which is actually not a burst-synergistic - over the period of the burst a large fraction of the time (time-weighted not probability-weighted) your DPS isn't actually any higher.

 

A very important part of burst is reliability. If slugs only had 50% accuracy, they would suck.

[FridgeLM]

Average != Burst. TT has incredible burst synergy with Concentrated Fire, within BLC shots potentially in the 2K range. A huge fraction of BO's damage comes from ROF, which is actually not a burst-synergistic - over the period of the burst a large fraction of the time (time-weighted not probability-weighted) your DPS isn't actually any higher.

 

Eh, that sounds even more disgusting and stupid that battle scouts have two ridiculous burst DPS increases to choose from. I knew TT was good, I singled out BO because it was the most obvious one.

[KcirSirrah]

I will not apologize for anything I have said, nor make concessions as to my beliefs otherwise I would not have said them. You are free to see things your way as I am mine, and all the others are free to do the same as well.

[Nemarus]

The post which was originally here is no longer required. It has been replaced by Kittens in Cups. Edited April 25, 2014 by Nemarus

[Kuciwalker]

A very important part of burst is reliability. If slugs only had 50% accuracy, they would suck.

 

Back in the day, slugs did only have 50% accuracy (if that!) vs. scouts.

[Altheran]

I've already answered this issue, repeatedly. It is an incredibly easy fix.

 

1. All 100% armor pen becomes 50% armor pen.
   
2. Charged plating's uptime is reduced a lot and DR boost is reduced moderately (no 99% DR).
   

Lately, I've been thinking that armor penetration isn't that bad (for cannons).

In case of cannons, those without armor pen can have 16% hull damage. (Not really "instead" as it actually replaces shield piercing)

It actually offsets approximately 14%, performs less than armor piercing on higher DR, but better on lesser DR.

 

As generally it's either high amounts, or very few, I think it's actually not bad... They're not that overperforming.

 

What I see as problematic, however, is that Charged Plating adds DR resulting in being either absolutely powerful or useless depending on the weapon.

I think that what would be healthy for Charged Plating would be to act as a second layer of DR. That way it is never absolute, neither completely ignored.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Altheran

[Verain]

Back in the day, slugs did only have 50% accuracy (if that!) vs. scouts.

 

Back in that day, the other 50% was a one shot.

[Armonddd]

Back in the day, slugs did only have 50% accuracy (if that!) vs. scouts.

 

And it sucked! Not fun to play, not super effective.

 

Also, y'know, there were strikes. And gunships. And you had a lot more than 50% accuracy against them.

[Kuciwalker]

Back in that day, the other 50% was a one shot.

 

A BLC crit while TT is up can be damn close.

[Armonddd]

A BLC crit while TT is up can be damn close.

 

Uh...

 

Vector/Nadia build: 3120 EHP

 

BLC TT crit at 500m w/dam cap: 1267 dam/sec * 60sec / 80 shots * 1.75 crit mult = 1663 damage per shot.

[Verain]

Also, y'know, there were strikes. And gunships. And you had a lot more than 50% accuracy against them.

 

And they couldn't be one shot by a bypass hit either.

 

A BLC crit while TT is up can be damn close.

 

True but crits are by no means guaranteed. The problem with the one shot on the scout is that it was often the first time he knew a gunship was within range, and the intro was "die from full".

 

Uh...

 

Vector/Nadia build: 3120 EHP

 

EHP has something to do with evasion, right? Well, this assumes that a hit takes place. A hit for 1600+ can really mess your day up for sure.

 

 

But I think there's a lot more depth once the bypass nerf went in. I do wish it was an adjustment, not a nerf- for instance, they could reduce the duration slightly and the cooldown a LOT.

[Kuciwalker]

OK, fine, I will roll an alt on TEH (I'll call it Alex@jm) sometime this weekend.

 

After five or six matches with Leggo, I am not impressed by TEH's pilots, although I do like the rate of queue pops.

[Kuciwalker]

True but crits are by no means guaranteed. The problem with the one shot on the scout is that it was often the first time he knew a gunship was within range, and the intro was "die from full".

 

With concentrated fire the crit chance is ~50%.

[Armonddd]

And they couldn't be one shot by a bypass hit either.

 

We've left the realm of relevance to the idea of burst damage requiring reliability.

 

EHP has something to do with evasion, right?

 

Evasion has nothing to do with maximum potential burst, which is what I was discussing in that particular quote. The claim was that a TT burst could one-shot gunships; it cannot.

 

But I think there's a lot more depth once the bypass nerf went in. I do wish it was an adjustment, not a nerf- for instance, they could reduce the duration slightly and the cooldown a LOT.

 

I agree, but at the same time, the game already has too much shield piercing.

[Verain]

I agree, but at the same time, the game already has too much shield piercing.

 

On the contrary, I think it has not enough in some areas. Well, "not enough" isn't right. I like the magnitude, which is lower than before, but not the frequency, which isn't that often or is OMG TOO MUCH.

 

Ex: It's odd to me that the lasers with armor ignore also have talents for shield piercing. You'd expect some laser to have one but not the other. So like if someone had HLC you'd be like "that'll ignore my armor" and someone had rapid fire you'd be like "that'll ignore my shield", or whatever.

[Armonddd]

On the contrary, I think it has not enough in some areas. Well, "not enough" isn't right. I like the magnitude, which is lower than before, but not the frequency, which isn't that often or is OMG TOO MUCH.

 

Ex: It's odd to me that the lasers with armor ignore also have talents for shield piercing. You'd expect some laser to have one but not the other. So like if someone had HLC you'd be like "that'll ignore my armor" and someone had rapid fire you'd be like "that'll ignore my shield", or whatever.

 

The problem is that hull damage, by virtue of how hard it is to repair, is extremely valuable. Also, because shields are so useful against so many things, there's an impression -- expectation, even -- that full shields affords you a decent amount of protection. Then someone shows up with slugs or HLCs or drops a seismic on your face (mines apparently blow up on your face if you shoot them, TIL) and you get one-shot through that protection. It's frustrating and frankly not balanced. As I said a long time ago, why introduce mechanics if you're just going to create common mechanics to invalidate your mechanics?

 

It's one thing when a missile pierces your shields and takes out your last chunk of hull, because there's plenty of warning that you're going to boom. It's completely different when shield piercing shows up out of nowhere and gibbs you.

[Ramalina]

Please specify this statement. Do you mean two of the three types of strike fighters? Within those types, there are several viable builds; I'd be surprised if two thirds of the number of people flying strikes stack max armor.

 

The other thing is, strikes don't generally want or need to get close to bombers. They have the munitions to fight from outside the minefield.

 

Only bombers get the 1% (strike base is 5% armor, not 10%). Strikes get 6% (perfectly manageable) or 15% if they sacrifice the crew member (still mostly reasonable).

 

Yeah, I meant types not builds, was probably already thinking about the next sentence when I typed that.

 

I was looking at DR builds and determined that the type 2 and type 3 strikes can in fact reach 99% DR, though only for 6 sec/min. They need to take nullify as a crew active, and republic side it drops DR with charged plating active from 94 down to 85 because you can't get nullify and the passive together. It's long enough to clear a minefield by boosting through it though.

 

I agree in terms of strikes generally not bothering with DR though. Unless you want to use some rather high risk and sub-optimal builds a strike never really needs to get too close to a bomber unless trying to clear B in Kuat or C in Lost shipyards. If you wanted to get close though, you could. The tradeoffs just aren't worth it to most people.

 

You could take that to mean that bombers might not be quite as bad as we're making out. MMO players tend to flock to what works pretty reliably, and if we aren't willing to take the components that help kill bombers then that sort of implies that we think that there are worse possibilities. Flying around in the same space as gunships and type 2 scouts with defensive components that don't work well against slug railguns and BLCs for example.

 

I'm not as strongly in the nerf SIM bombers camp as some people are. I haven't really run into them when piloted by good pilots that much. On a strike you have to sort of work a bit at any kill that doesn't involve farming a blissfully unaware noob, so having to work more to kill a bomber, well it's not that different from any other ship with a good pilot. A pilot that knows what they're doing can at the risk of some gunship exposure, fly a bomber around a sat in a way that makes all of the 'good' anti-bomber long/medium range missiles impossible to lock on. You'll never have the 2.6 seconds needed for a lock without them LOSing unless they make a mistake. Neutralize a strike's secondary weapons and it hurts, even if it's not a Pike or Quell.

 

Few pilots are perfect though, and it's not really much worse than before the engine cooldown nerfs when scouts and gunships that played perfectly allowed a maximum missile launch window of one to two seconds for the slower missiles, and would defeat at least 2 out of every three missiles fired, unless they made a mistake. That was without using LOS mind you.

 

I expect the developers probably will do something about the SIM bombers, but I suspect that it will be a fairly small change and won't change the armor/armor pierce and shield piercing mechanics and distribution among components very much. They've got everything else close enough to well balanced that they're not going to be eager to take a big hammer to fundamental mechanics for a single ship build that's moderately broken.

[Ramalina]

Another thing occurred to me. Strikes, bombers, and armor if judged by popularity all sort of underperformed a bit in the past.

 

The SIM bomber, in a way, rewards taking those choices that were previously considered not quite good enough.

 

It's just that it does so in a way that I think makes a lot of players feel like the game is trying to bully them into choices that they don't want, and still aren't quite good enough in most situations.

 

For myself, even having looked at the math and decided that damage reduction isn't really terrible, there's still no build that I'd want to use it on other than a SIM bomber, or maybe a dronecarrier that's running into a lot of SIM bombers.

 

On a strike what would it take to get me to adopt a damage reduction based build? Seeing at least 4 SIM bombers in every domination game, and having BLC's available on the Clarion/Imperium. That's what would make a DR strike build truly appealing. It would be brokenly over powered against SIM bombers, but without that benefit, damage reduction builds just aren't good enough for general application in a strike to be really desirable.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Ramalina

[Nemarus]

Another thing occurred to me. Strikes, bombers, and armor if judged by popularity all sort of underperformed a bit in the past.

 

The SIM bomber, in a way, rewards taking those choices that were previously considered not quite good enough.

 

It's just that it does so in a way that I think makes a lot of players feel like the game is trying to bully them into choices that they don't want, and still aren't quite good enough in most situations.

 

For myself, even having looked at the math and decided that damage reduction isn't really terrible, there's still no build that I'd want to use it on other than a SIM bomber, or maybe a dronecarrier that's running into a lot of SIM bombers.

 

On a strike what would it take to get me to adopt a damage reduction based build? Seeing at least 4 SIM bombers in every domination game, and having BLC's available on the Clarion/Imperium. That's what would make a DR strike build truly appealing. It would be brokenly over powered against SIM bombers, but without that benefit, damage reduction builds just aren't good enough for general application in a strike to be really desirable.

 

Yeah, that's the conundrum I'm having.

 

I can get Charged Plating on a Strike, but it doesn't end up having the weapons I need to challenge a CP SIM.

 

The Imperium has no Armor Piercing blaster options.

 

The Quell only has HLC's, which are very hard to use under the node and will do better if used to attack the Bomber from outside mine range (and you still have to deal with LOS issues). But if you aren't in range of the mines, then charged Plating is more of a liability than a boon.

 

If the Imperium had BLC's or Rocket Pods, it could be the perfect anti-CPSIM. Or better yet, strip Armor Piercing off BLC's and put them on Lights or Rapids. That would make short-range weapon choice far more interesting.