Domination on The Ebon Hawk is now a farce

[Zoom_VI]

Many variations of teamwork also work to rapidly remove a minelayer before help can arrive.

 

Your version of teamwork is bring another minelayer + friends. 3v1 situations are not valid for a balance discussion.

[Verain]

it turned around just as fast as me, and I've specced for faster turn.

 

Bomber base OR UPGRADED pitch/yaw: 1.32 / 0.78

Strike base pitch/yaw: 1.58/0.96

2x upgraded strike pitch/yaw: 1.78/1.16

 

 

If you are getting outturned by a bomber, that's on you. Pretty hardcore on you.

[SammyGStatus]

A solo gunship doesn't peel a node, but two do.

 

Speak for yourself!

 

.....JK, it's definitely tough to clear a bomber from a node as a solo GS, especially when being tailed by multiple enemies. Best way to combat bombers is more bombers. Let's get a cluster ^$@# going, everyone who's in range will die (Like the thought bomb in the Darth Bane books), and then from the ashes rebuild the defense of the node. Rinse, repeat.

 

Honestly, that doesn't seem like it'll work too well or effectively. This isn't optimal, but it does make for a pretty cool light show on Denon @ B

[Verain]

Your version of teamwork is bring another minelayer + friends. 3v1 situations are not valid for a balance discussion.

 

Oh, I'm sorry! I thought we were talking about a node, a team objective of which they are only three, and of which people are complaining about solo bombers defending. I didn't realize that of course you should be expected to solo a node in your dogfighter or sniper, because that's a fair assumption to have.

 

I guess it is totally unreasonable to bring three players to one of the nodes that you need two of to win. Clearly.

 

If the bomber floats in space, stay out of range of his mines and shoot him. If he flies away from the mines, instead try shooting him. If he stays inside the mines, missile lock and maybe try to shoot him, and stay away from his lumbering slow turning self. If he LOSes in the middle of an area of no strategic importance... just ignore him- a minelayer floating in space can be soloed by anything at any time, and accomplishes nothing for anyone!

 

 

 

Simply put, it's FINE that you can't solo an entrenched bomber. You should need teamwork for that. Oh, and my scenario wasn't really 3:1- it's how to kill the bomber fast, even assuming some enemy interference. Because once you do that, the node can become yours.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Verain

[Armonddd]

/popcorn

[Zoom_VI]

Oh, I'm sorry! I thought we were talking about a node, a team objective of which they are only three, and of which people are complaining about solo bombers defending. I didn't realize that of course you should be expected to solo a node in your dogfighter or sniper, because that's a fair assumption to have.

 

I guess it is totally unreasonable to bring three players to one of the nodes that you need two of to win. Clearly.

 

If the bomber floats in space, stay out of range of his mines and shoot him. If he flies away from the mines, instead try shooting him. If he stays inside the mines, missile lock and maybe try to shoot him, and stay away from his lumbering slow turning self. If he LOSes in the middle of an area of no strategic importance... just ignore him- a minelayer floating in space can be soloed by anything at any time, and accomplishes nothing for anyone!

 

The whole point of this thread is that the only way to remove a minelayer a specific build is to bring another minelayer of the same build.

 

You came in a said no its easy to remove the minelayer, all you need is a gunship, a scout and another minelayer

 

Brilliant! you just proved the point you where trying to disprove.

 

Simply put, it's FINE that you can't solo an entrenched bomber. You should need teamwork for that. Oh, and my scenario wasn't really 3:1- it's how to kill the bomber fast, even assuming some enemy interference. Because once you do that, the node can become yours.

 

No one class of ship should ever, under any circumstances be worth more than any other class of ship.

 

Good heavens, you complain about Armonddd yet you are merely a gunship version of him.

[Armonddd]

Good heavens, you complain about Armonddd yet you are merely a gunship version of him.

 

Not sure why everyone feels inclined to type out the extra Ds, they're only there because I was five minutes late at launch.

[Nemarus]

Oh, I'm sorry! I thought we were talking about a node, a team objective of which they are only three, and of which people are complaining about solo bombers defending. I didn't realize that of course you should be expected to solo a node in your dogfighter or sniper, because that's a fair assumption to have.

 

I guess it is totally unreasonable to bring three players to one of the nodes that you need two of to win. Clearly.

 

If the bomber floats in space, stay out of range of his mines and shoot him. If he flies away from the mines, instead try shooting him. If he stays inside the mines, missile lock and maybe try to shoot him, and stay away from his lumbering slow turning self. If he LOSes in the middle of an area of no strategic importance... just ignore him- a minelayer floating in space can be soloed by anything at any time, and accomplishes nothing for anyone!

 

 

 

Simply put, it's FINE that you can't solo an entrenched bomber. You should need teamwork for that. Oh, and my scenario wasn't really 3:1- it's how to kill the bomber fast, even assuming some enemy interference. Because once you do that, the node can become yours.

 

For every "coordinated A-team of mixed ships" you bring, the node can easily be defended by less than the same number of Bombers piloted by newbies or bots.

 

Bring a Type 3 Strike, a Type 1 Strike, and a Gunship? Two S/I Minelayers will either take care of the Strikes, leaving the Gunship impotent and alone 15km away, or they'll at the very least delay for minutes at a time, during which their team can exploit the numbers advantage on other nodes.

 

Bring a a Dronecarrier, two Gunships, and a Strike? Three (or maybe even two) S/I Minelayers will still delay the node being lost for minutes.

 

And if we talk about equal number of any non-SI Bombers vs. equal number of S/I Minelayers, it's a joke. The best you could hope for is a stalemate where the Bombers circle the node while the rest of the team takes potshots at them.

 

But bring two S/I Minelayers against two S/I Minelayers? That's a tossup. Either side could win, and some small measure of skill might be the determining factor. Bring three S/I Minelayers against two? The three are almost certainly going to win. Then it becomes about numbers.

 

And as to your point about cleverly deploying mines to detonate old ones, yes of course I know that. I was the one who asked Chris if that was intended, because it felt broken to me. It allows you to turn 1107 burst AOE hull damage into 2214 burst AOE hull damage.

 

You act like it's not burst damage because "you have to fly into it". Well guess what, if you don't actually close on the node at some point, YOU NEVER TAKE IT. If you don't close on the node, you cannot maintain LOS on the circling Bomber enough to destroy it in a timely (or ever) fashion. You can use teamwork to do it, but then that's an A v B ship situation, where A is greater than B, and A can always be shut down just by adding more Bombers such that B = A.

 

And while I agree that attacking a defended node should require skilled and coordinated teamwork, defending a node should require an equal amount of skilled and coordinated teamwork. And 2-3 Si/I Minelayers circling and spamming mines is not skilled and coordinated teamwork. It's botwork.

 

And stop acting like Charged Plating and Armor is the ultimate solution. All that does is drag out the fight slightly longer. Charged Plating is up for 19 out of every 30 seconds. New mines are spawned every 15 seconds. In that window when Charged Plating is down, you're going to eat a ton of damage or you're going to be off the node, with no LOS on the Minelayer.

 

And since Repair Probes had its cooldown doubled since PTS, it is no longer enough healing to deal with the hull damage output of even one S/I Minelayer, let alone 2+.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nemarus

[Ramalina]

So thinking about this some more here's what I came up with.

 

Mine hull damage: The damage is fine. It's 100% avoidable by not flying into the glowy red spheres. Type 2 scouts howl a lot if you smack them on the nose with a mine for trying to hump the bomber's landing gear with their BLCs, but that's not a problem so much as it is type 2 scouts being type 2 scouts. Eventually they'll learn (maybe), and they do have build options that allow out ranging mines.

 

Bomber tankiness: This may be a bit of a problem. The idea is that there's a ship class that's immune to the burst that type 1 gunships and type 2 scouts have in borderline excessive amounts. Increased missile vulnerability is the tradeoff to make strikes, type 1 scouts, and maybe type 2 gunships comparatively better at dealing with bombers. It's slightly problematic though, because in order to be tanky enough to survive burst, the bombers wind up being so tough that it becomes a real chore to take them down with sustained dps containing liberal missile use. So the ships that are supposed to be stronger against them don't really feel much stronger against them.

 

It's also complicated a bit by the natural habitat of the bomber being good cover for LOSing. The missiles that have enough oomph to bother bombers are also the ones that have long enough lock on times that LOSing around a node can mostly erase the advantage that the ships with the 'good' missiles are supposed to have with respect to bombers.

 

The interesting thing is that the complaint is really composed of multiple parts. Part one basically goes, there's a ship that can kill my type 2 scout if I'm too lazy to fly around mines instead of through them. Part two goes, I can't burst down a bomber with BLCs on my type 2 scout, boo hoo, whine, gripe, etc.

 

There's also a third part, which is that even with multiple ships it can be difficult to kill a bomber on a node. It's a little bit suspicious to me though. If the real problem is tankiness, then what weapons the bomber carries shouldn't matter. Still it might be worth a look. Shield penetration was nerfed a bit at one point, and the resulting balance was pretty good in a bomber free world, but with the ability to use engine pool as a second shield pool once set up on a node perhaps minelayers are overly shielded at this point.

[SammyGStatus]

If they fixed the blast radius to exclusively be top or bottom of the satellite, instead of "Hey, this mine is on the bottom of the satellite. There's some sort of metal ceiling here that will kill a ship if it touches. Let's let the burst damage completely ignore that barrier and take down both top and bottom". Not cool >.< I understand the Ion AOE does the same thing, but that one makes more sense to me than a mine doing the same thing (only slightly more, as being on the other side of a barrier in KM should mean that my AOE Ion can't penetrate through the thick rock wall)

[Nemarus]

So thinking about this some more here's what I came up with.

 

Mine hull damage: The damage is fine. It's 100% avoidable by not flying into the glowy red spheres. Type 2 scouts howl a lot if you smack them on the nose with a mine for trying to hump the bomber's landing gear with their BLCs, but that's not a problem so much as it is type 2 scouts being type 2 scouts. Eventually they'll learn (maybe), and they do have build options that allow out ranging mines.

 

Bomber tankiness: This may be a bit of a problem. The idea is that there's a ship class that's immune to the burst that type 1 gunships and type 2 scouts have in borderline excessive amounts. Increased missile vulnerability is the tradeoff to make strikes, type 1 scouts, and maybe type 2 gunships comparatively better at dealing with bombers. It's slightly problematic though, because in order to be tanky enough to survive burst, the bombers wind up being so tough that it becomes a real chore to take them down with sustained dps containing liberal missile use. So the ships that are supposed to be stronger against them don't really feel much stronger against them.

 

It's also complicated a bit by the natural habitat of the bomber being good cover for LOSing. The missiles that have enough oomph to bother bombers are also the ones that have long enough lock on times that LOSing around a node can mostly erase the advantage that the ships with the 'good' missiles are supposed to have with respect to bombers.

 

The interesting thing is that the complaint is really composed of multiple parts. Part one basically goes, there's a ship that can kill my type 2 scout if I'm too lazy to fly around mines instead of through them. Part two goes, I can't burst down a bomber with BLCs on my type 2 scout, boo hoo, whine, gripe, etc.

 

There's also a third part, which is that even with multiple ships it can be difficult to kill a bomber on a node. It's a little bit suspicious to me though. If the real problem is tankiness, then what weapons the bomber carries shouldn't matter. Still it might be worth a look. Shield penetration was nerfed a bit at one point, and the resulting balance was pretty good in a bomber free world, but with the ability to use engine pool as a second shield pool once set up on a node perhaps minelayers are overly shielded at this point.

 

I wrote the OP. This isn't about Type 2 Scouts (or any Scouts). I don't fly one. I don't have one readied. This isn't even about Bombers in general. I like that Bombers (in general) are a hard counter to Scouts, especially in Domination. Any Bomber can be. Drones, Seeker Mines, Concussion Mines... they all work great against Scouts and should continue to do so.

 

That is not what this is about. This is about one particular Seismic/Interdiction Minelayer build being a hard counter to EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME for Domination.

 

The impetus for this complaint was because I fly this particular Minelayer build in Domination and I knew it was broken, and now everyone else on my server does too. Now everyone is flying it. No other ship--not Scouts, Strikes, Gunships or other Bomber builds--can compete with this particular Minelayer build ship for ship in Domination, especially if there are two or more. No other ship can counter this particular Minelayer build like itself.

 

This is a very narrow, very specific problem with a very specific build in one particular gametype, which results in everyone gravitating toward this build for that gametype.

 

I am disgusted that someone cannot offer legitimate and thoughtful feedback without blindly being accused of having some "agenda" by others who have their own. People need to stop tunnel-visioning on their favorite class and try out the rest of GSF--otherwise they have no business discussing balance of the game at large.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nemarus

[Armonddd]

The interesting thing is that the complaint is really composed of multiple parts. Part one basically goes, there's a ship that can kill my type 2 scout if I'm too lazy to fly around mines instead of through them. Part two goes, I can't burst down a bomber with BLCs on my type 2 scout, boo hoo, whine, gripe, etc.

 

There's also a third part, which is that even with multiple ships it can be difficult to kill a bomber on a node. It's a little bit suspicious to me though.

 

What about the part where my favored class gets hard countered the moment a bomber sets up on a node?

 

I've never asked for BLCs to three-shot bombers, and I've never said that mines are a problem for the lazy. I've repeatedly asked for a change that gives scouts and strikes a chance to dislodge a bomber against an equally skilled opponent -- something that is flat out impossible on live. I like to think that's a fair and respectful complaint.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Armonddd

[Morgrid]

a hard counter to EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME

 

But it's not.

 

It's a counter to those who lack teamwork and a variety of ships.

 

You can build a Quell as a bomber killer if you wanted, EMP missiles, Ion missiles and Heavy Laser Cannons - however this build doesn't create HUGE NUMBERS™ so you'll dismiss it.

 

You know what you can target with EMP missiles? Just about everything.

 

Mines? Check.

 

Drones? Check.

 

Turrets? Check.

 

The best part about it? All those pesky mines you speak of being spawned? It cuts that in half.

 

I know I know, prying a bomber out from under its rock can be a daunting task for all you pilots used to zipping around, nary a f**k to be given, but here's the thing. You have access to the tools you need. You just don't want to use them.

 

Tensor Field? Hmmm... Tasty speed and turning rate increases for 24 seconds, great for being under a satellite. WAIT! It's a support skill! I CAN'T USE THAT.

 

Combat Command? 20% accuracy and 7% crit for 24 seconds, as well as power regeneration? Man, that would be great for landing shots on a bomber to bring it down quickly - offsetting some of that tracking penalty and all...

 

Ah damn, it's a support skill too. YOU CAN'T USE THAT!.

 

"They're not good enough!" you exclaim.

 

Well, you also call yourself "Aces". If you can't a bomber or one of the many MANY MANY stationary targets near it with a missile, you should probably rethink that title.

[Ramalina]

Sorry, but I'm just really just not comprehending the part where we're all forced to fly within 3500m of a minelayer and/or its mine(s). At least not on nodes other than C in Lost shipyards.

 

"But we have to fly close to the node to turn it."

 

You can't turn the node until ships in close proximity are already dead or fled. So you might as well kill the bomber from a standoff range greater than the not-very-great mine blast radius and then get close to the sat.

 

Since you seem to be developing a fondness for large fonts: Getting blown up by flying into stacked mines with a blast radius shorter than the range of every other primary and secondary weapon system in GSF is not a problem.

 

It is the INTENDED FUNCTION of the mines.

 

I mentioned type 2 scouts because most of this thread was really about them having one specific situation where the BLCs cheese build doesn't feel like easymode, and complain about it as only type 2 scout pilots and type 1 gunship pilots can complain. To be more fair to them than I generally like being, there is a pretty strong incentive to build and fly a type 2 scout as an "in your face" style ship. For everyone else, there are workable weapons, especially secondary weapons, that very handily keep you well out of the range of seismic and interdiction mines unless you lack enough sense to break off when you should.

 

Minelayers kill stuff with mines. They are supposed to kill stuff with mines. If you stay out of the relatively short blast radius of the mines they POSE A NEGLIBLE THREAT TO ANY OTHER SHIP IN GSF. It's not at all the same as a gunship that can effectively threaten a third or more of the map from one position.

 

Seismic and interdiction mines are vastly OP to the same people who find asteroids to be vastly OP. The ones that don't fly AROUND deadly obstacles.

 

To the extent that there are bomber related problems in domination game modes, it's a matter of the time to flip a node being slowed down so much that the probable outcome of the game is established early on, and that changing the outcome become prohibitively difficult. Seismic mines combined with interdiction mines don't create that problem, bomber tankiness does. If seismic mines combined with interdiction mines are the only practical solution to that problem, then the game balance solution is not to nerf them, but to make sure that there are multiple alternative solutions that are about as effective.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Ramalina

[Nemarus]

But it's not.

 

It's a counter to those who lack teamwork and a variety of ships.

 

You can build a Quell as a bomber killer if you wanted, EMP missiles, Ion missiles and Heavy Laser Cannons - however this build doesn't create HUGE NUMBERS™ so you'll dismiss it.

 

You know what you can target with EMP missiles? Just about everything.

 

Mines? Check.

 

Drones? Check.

 

Turrets? Check.

 

The best part about it? All those pesky mines you speak of being spawned? It cuts that in half.

 

I know I know, prying a bomber out from under its rock can be a daunting task for all you pilots used to zipping around, nary a f**k to be given, but here's the thing. You have access to the tools you need. You just don't want to use them.

 

Tensor Field? Hmmm... Tasty speed and turning rate increases for 24 seconds, great for being under a satellite. WAIT! It's a support skill! I CAN'T USE THAT.

 

Combat Command? 20% accuracy and 7% crit for 24 seconds, as well as power regeneration? Man, that would be great for landing shots on a bomber to bring it down quickly - offsetting some of that tracking penalty and all...

 

Ah damn, it's a support skill too. YOU CAN'T USE THAT!.

 

"They're not good enough!" you exclaim.

 

Well, you also call yourself "Aces". If you can't a bomber or one of the many MANY MANY stationary targets near it with a missile, you should probably rethink that title.

 

It's been said so many times already, but I'll say it again.

 

No one is saying that this Minelayer build cannot be killed by anything else.

 

The problem is that it's easier and faster and more reliable to attack this Minelayer with its twin. This Minelayer's best defenses come from its:

 

1) big shields which can regen quickly with E-2-S Converter and Overcharge

2) affinity for close sat hugging, making sustained LOS difficult

3) immense hull / armor

 

Seismic Mines and Interdiction Mines both ignore #1 and #2. They are mitigated by armor, but the only weapon that ignores shields AND armor is a proton torpedo, and it takes three (maybe four if the Minelayer specs for hull points and hydrospanner) to take one down. And landing one proton Proton Torpedo, let alone three, on a circling Bomber is tough stuff. Even if the Minelayer was stationary, it would take at least 30-40 seconds to hit a Bomber with three torps.

 

I know what you're going to say: bring three Strikes with proton torpedoes, and use teamwork to all hit the Bomber at the same time!

 

Okay. The other team brings three Minelayers to counter your three Strikes. Now you have 6000-7200 hull points you need to get through before you can cap the sat. What do you do?

 

The only way to deal with more than one of these Minelayers in a timely fashion is with AOE hull damage, and the only source of that is one of these Minelayers.

 

Hence everyone starts playing these Minelayers. Is it that hard to understand? What is your counter argument to the scenario I've just presented?

 

And why are you acting like I'm obsessed with Scouts? I fly one in TDM, sure. But I never fly one in Domination, except for my recent experiments with a Bloodmark. And it would be a decent little ship for Domination, except that if someone is running these mines, it can't go near a node, and its Repair Drone gets taken out immediately.

 

But before that, in Domination I was flying Bombers and Strikes exclusively. And for any mildly difficult match, I'd fall back to this ridiculous Minelayer build, because it would all-but-guarantee my team victory. And not because I'm an ace, but because the build is broken.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nemarus

[Armonddd]

You can build a Quell as a bomber killer if you wanted, EMP missiles, Ion missiles and Heavy Laser Cannons - however this build doesn't create HUGE NUMBERS™ so you'll dismiss it.

 

No, I'll dismiss it because it's pretty bad against anything that isn't a bomber, which means that if I'm not flying against a bomber, I'm either hiding or sniping newbies. That's, frankly, boring, and if the game is forcing me to field boring tactics to beat overpowered builds, there's a few problems.

 

Tensor Field? Hmmm... Tasty speed and turning rate increases for 24 seconds, great for being under a satellite. WAIT! It's a support skill! I CAN'T USE THAT.

 

With booster recharge and +20% turning radius, tensor field is overkill. There's nothing it can give me to help me fight a bomber. It's literally worthless. Possibly worse, if I'm not expecting it and I overturn or overshoot. Oh... and of course that's if I'm on the satellite like a bad. If I'm not, I don't even need what I have, much less tensor's buff.

 

Combat Command? 20% accuracy and 7% crit for 24 seconds, as well as power regeneration? Man, that would be great for landing shots on a bomber to bring it down quickly - offsetting some of that tracking penalty and all...

 

Ah damn, it's a support skill too. YOU CAN'T USE THAT!.

 

7% crit is not very significant. 20% accuracy is going to do nothing against a bomber's lack of evasion. Offsetting tracking penalty is, again, only going to do anything if you're on the satellite. If you're not, you don't need accuracy because, again, nonexistent evasion.

 

"They're not good enough!" you exclaim.

 

Well, you also call yourself "Aces". If you can't a bomber or one of the many MANY MANY stationary targets near it with a missile, you should probably rethink that title.

 

They're... not.

 

If you're going to try disproving theorycrafting with theorycrafting, try making your theorycrafting practical.

[Morgrid]

Okay. The other team brings three Minelayers to counter your three Strikes. Now you have 6000-7200 hull points you need to get through before you can cap the sat. What do you do?

 

If your team is letting three painfully slow minelayers reinforce a node that you're going after, you need to have a talk with your gunships.

 

You do realize and Ion missile will strip the shields off whatever side of the bomber it hits right? Plug a bomber with one of those and it will go nowhere fast.

 

And heavy lasers are one of the many weapons that just chew through hull with frightening speed.

 

Oh what's this? EMP missiles disable mines and turrets from stand off range? Wow. AND they do it in an AOE!?

 

Here's the thing. That EMP missile? The one you call useless?

 

Yeah, a bomber without access to Interdiction Mine will have their damage fall off. A bomber without access to shield converter? Well that's not nearly as survivable.

 

 

You have options.

 

You're just willingly blind to them.

[Nemarus]

Minelayers kill stuff with mines. They are supposed to kill stuff with mines. If you stay out of the relatively short blast radius of the mines they POSE A NEGLIBLE THREAT TO ANY OTHER SHIP IN GSF. It's not at all the same as a gunship that can effectively threaten a third or more of the map from one position.

 

Seismic and interdiction mines are vastly OP to the same people who find asteroids to be vastly OP. The ones that don't fly AROUND deadly obstacles.

 

To the extent that there are bomber related problems in domination game modes, it's a matter of the time to flip a node being slowed down so much that the probable outcome of the game is established early on, and that changing the outcome become prohibitively difficult. Seismic mines combined with interdiction mines don't create that problem, bomber tankiness does. If seismic mines combined with interdiction mines are the only practical solution to that problem, then the game balance solution is not to nerf them, but to make sure that there are multiple alternative solutions that are about as effective.

 

But this Minelayer isn't just used defensively, except by really stupid people. It's not just a node-holder ... it's a node-clearer.

 

You say the big problem with Bombers in Domination is the time it takes to kill them so you can flip a node. I agree, that is a problem. The thing is, because of the general tankiness of all Bombers, this particular Minelayer build, which ignores shields and line of sight requirements, ends up being the most efficient way to kill not just one Bomber, but multiple stacked Bombers too.

 

Let's say 2 Dronecarriers have fortified a node their team controls. It has covered the place in sentry drones, two Repair Drones, and seeker mines, and there's 3 defense turrets. Scouts without an EMP Field would be instantly destroyed if it went there. Strikes would have to carefully mix EMP Missiles and use mid-range weapons to try and clear the defenses faster than the Dronecarriers could replenish them. Gunship could speed up the dismantling of defenses, but it's still going to take some coordinated teamwork and most of all, time.

 

But one S/I Minelayer can simply roll on in, deploy Overcharged Shields or Charged Plating, HLC the three turrets on approach, eat the few Seeker Mines without a care (using E2S to refill shields), and then drop its own Seismic / Interdiction Mines out of LOS of any sentry drones. 4 seconds later, if the Dronecarriers and any other defenders have not vacated the node (i.e. conceded it to the Minelayer), the mines explode and take out all the drones.

 

Anyone who was dutifully staying on the node to prevent its loss takes 1107 hull damage. Scouts die. Strikes are red-hulled and burning.

 

Anyone who is not a Bomber now have 15 seconds to get out of there or they will die.

 

What are the two Dronecarriers going to do? Any drones they drop will be destroyed by the next salvo, or if they place them a bit off the node, the Minelayer will simply LOS them. Seeker Mines do not do enough damage to even dent the Minelayer. Proton Torpedos will be LOS'd, and only do 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage needed to kill the Minelayer anyway. Two Strikes can coordinate to top/bottom the satellite and range the single Minelayer down, but it'll take time, and either way it's a 2v1 exchange.

 

A single Minelayer has essentially rested control (at least for a time) from 2+ ships--not just Scouts mind you, but Dronecarriers, super-tanky-support ships. Imagine what two such Minelayers could do. You don't have to--it's easy (because of math!). The same thing but twice as fast, because the mine damage stacks perfectly.

 

I say this with experience. I do it ALL THE TIME on my S/I Minelayer. The only thing that successfully stopped me was when everyone else started running the same Minelayer build.

[Nemarus]

If your team is letting three painfully slow minelayers reinforce a node that you're going after, you need to have a talk with your gunships.

 

You do realize and Ion missile will strip the shields off whatever side of the bomber it hits right? Plug a bomber with one of those and it will go nowhere fast.

 

And heavy lasers are one of the many weapons that just chew through hull with frightening speed.

 

Oh what's this? EMP missiles disable mines and turrets from stand off range? Wow. AND they do it in an AOE!?

 

Here's the thing. That EMP missile? The one you call useless?

 

Yeah, a bomber without access to Interdiction Mine will have their damage fall off. A bomber without access to shield converter? Well that's not nearly as survivable.

 

 

You have options.

 

You're just willingly blind to them.

 

I am blind to nothing. I have tried desperately with all three flavors of Strikes to create an anti-Bomber build. The Imperium comes closest because of Repair Probes, and indeed it does fairly well against a single Minelayer. But two Imperiums against two Minelayers is a joke.

 

And you should check your math. The build in question has 2925 shields. An Ion Missile does 1580 shield damage. That leaves 1345 shields on an arc, which leaves plenty of time for the Bomber to flip over and present its other arc, or break LOS.

 

Again, I say this from the experience of PLAYING ONE and trying to COUNTER ONE. One is far easier than the other.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nemarus

[Ramalina]

Ok, Nemarus, that was a very well argued reply. I suppose the thing is, that I see mine nerfs as just making node flipping even worse than it already is, and that a better solution might be a reduction in what's close to 3.5k shields per arc (after cooldowns) for the minelayer or making the anti-bomber missile weapons more effective on bombers.

 

The problem is doing it without making bombers underpowered, or missiles/torps overpowered.

[Slivovidze]

The thing is, piloting a lolbomber takes, like two hands, and ability to press two buttons repeatedly.

To pilot it successfully requires a decent share of area overview, plus the above.

 

To counter that thing, requires either the same build with the same skillset, or:

Decent piloting skills, quick decision-making, luck, mastered ship of specific build (which is insanely weak against everything else), preferably allies on voice chat.

 

THAT is wrong. A drunk me with stock lolbomber can decimate a decent enemy team. All that's needed is to get close to a satellite.

[Nemarus]

Ok, Nemarus, that was a very well argued reply. I suppose the thing is, that I see mine nerfs as just making node flipping even worse than it already is, and that a better solution might be a reduction in what's close to 3.5k shields per arc (after cooldowns) for the minelayer or making the anti-bomber missile weapons more effective on bombers.

 

The problem is doing it without making bombers underpowered, or missiles/torps overpowered.

 

Thanks. I'm trying to be constructive. I just get frustrated when personal attacks and little holy wars break out in threads that weren't ever about the warring sides. There are no sides here. Seismic and Interdiction Mines are a threat to everyone: Scouts, Strikes, Gunships, Dronecarriers and other Minelayer builds.

 

I think you could nerf Seismic and Interdiction Mines safely without threatening the effectiveness of Bombers. After all, Dronecarriers would be unaffected, and even a Minelayer with Concussion and Seeker Mines is still very effective, especially against lightly shielded targets. I think Seismic and Interdiction could be adjusted to be more in line with Concussion and Seeker Mines.

 

Once you get rid of the 100% shield piercing, balance is much easier, because shield capacity/regen/management is much more in everyone's control. Right now, if Concussion Mines and Seeker Mines give you trouble, you can mitigate by using a more heavily shielded ship, using particular shield and reactor components, defensive crew skills, playing with power to shields, or doing hit and fades that give your shields time to recharge. None of these mitigations make Concussion/Seeker Mines useless--it just gives the mine victim a little more strategic options.

 

This is a stark difference from what happens with mines that deal direct hull damage. For hull damage, the only mitigation comes from the inherent ship class (Bombers > Strike = Gunship > Scout), the Armor Component (which isn't available to everyone), and crew. Charged Plating too, but that is a very specialized, high-skill component. And regardless, you can't "put more power to hull" or hide to let your hull recharge, unless you have a Repair Drone handy.

 

Come to think of it, it makes me wish that instead of Repair Probes, the support ships had gotten some team-wide version of Charged Plating. Something that helps pre-empt a sudden burst of hull damage for a short time, teamwide. Of course, this would be a very narrowly focused counter to Seismic/Interdiction, which is probably a bad habit.

 

That's why I think it's better to just make all mines need to go through shields to some extent, just like every other weapon in the game except Proton Torpedo. Proton Torpedo is a very special and powerful weapon, which some people are very good at wielding, and it's never felt unbalanced because of the high skill required to use it. Mines are not a high-skill weapon.

[MisterBlackJack]

We call that build a "Press 1 to win" build. It's disgusting. There's no reason to have something with so much imbalance in the game at all. YOU LITERALLY CANT DO ANYTHING AGAINST THEM while they're circling, holding the node, and being annoying. Any strike / scout is asking for it. And GS is gonna get pissed wasting his time. Any bomber will.... well, there isn't a whole lot of deep thinking from the mind of a bomber (a jest, but as the build name implies, it doesn't take much thought to lay a mine and blow it up). Dominations aren't fun when it's like that. I prefer to actually engage in combat, not watch someone circle something where I can hit it at all, and none of my teammates can pull the bomber off (and as a GS, I shouldn't be anywhere near a node anyways)

 

There is a very good counter to bombers circling satilites. Which is fly low and get under them and fire at em. You get them as they fully cirlce the satilte and get another pilot to take out mines.

 

It's really not hard to counter them. The key to domination fights (which by the way has been the same since GSF launched) is having a good coordinated team. And it comes down to that. If you have the better coordinated team, i don't care how many bombers the other team has you will win the match

[Armonddd]

There is a very good counter to bombers circling satilites. Which is fly low and get under them and fire at em. You get them as they fully cirlce the satilte and get another pilot to take out mines.

 

It's really not hard to counter them. The key to domination fights (which by the way has been the same since GSF launched) is having a good coordinated team. And it comes down to that. If you have the better coordinated team, i don't care how many bombers the other team has you will win the match

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7353314&postcount=17

[Nemarus]

There is a very good counter to bombers circling satilites. Which is fly low and get under them and fire at em. You get them as they fully cirlce the satilte and get another pilot to take out mines.

 

It's really not hard to counter them. The key to domination fights (which by the way has been the same since GSF launched) is having a good coordinated team. And it comes down to that. If you have the better coordinated team, i don't care how many bombers the other team has you will win the match

 

I love how this argument keeps coming up. "If you're better/coordinated/teamwork you can counter them." "If you attack a Minelayer with two Strikes/Gunships you can counter them."

 

Let's just take it to the limit, right now.

 

Let's say I get on Impside [Gsf] and I tell everyone, "Next Domination match, everyone fly your S/I Razorwire." When the match starts, four Razorwires go to each node."

 

Explain to me how your coordinated team stops them. Take any makeup of ships you like, up to 12. Divide your forces however you want. Assume all of your pilots are aces or elites.

 

Go.

 

--wait, before you answer, I just want to make sure you understand a few key things:

 

1) EMP Missile/Field do not stop Seismic Mines from being deployed every 15 seconds. Each seimic mine deals 678 direct hull damage in an AOE that covers the satellite and a little beyond.

 

2) Ion Missiles do not deal enough damage to take out one arc of an S/I Minelayer's shields

 

3) It takes 3-4 proton torpedoes to kill an S/I Minelayer

 

4) Gunships cannot cap nodes from 15km out

 

5) Hull healing for same sources does not stack

 

Okay. Four S/I Minelayers coming toward each node. Solve it.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nemarus