Domination on The Ebon Hawk is now a farce

[Devrius]

Another thing occurred to me. Strikes, bombers, and armor if judged by popularity all sort of underperformed a bit in the past.

 

The SIM bomber, in a way, rewards taking those choices that were previously considered not quite good enough.

 

It's just that it does so in a way that I think makes a lot of players feel like the game is trying to bully them into choices that they don't want, and still aren't quite good enough in most situations.

 

For myself, even having looked at the math and decided that damage reduction isn't really terrible, there's still no build that I'd want to use it on other than a SIM bomber, or maybe a dronecarrier that's running into a lot of SIM bombers.

 

On a strike what would it take to get me to adopt a damage reduction based build? Seeing at least 4 SIM bombers in every domination game, and having BLC's available on the Clarion/Imperium. That's what would make a DR strike build truly appealing. It would be brokenly over powered against SIM bombers, but without that benefit, damage reduction builds just aren't good enough for general application in a strike to be really desirable.

 

It's kind of a shame that GSF has only two universal defenses: Evasion and getting the frack away from the guy shooting you.

 

Plenty of weapons can get shield pierce and many completely negate damage reduction.

 

If damage reduction could be somewhere on par with evasion and if there was a way to improve shields to mitigate pierce it would do the game a world of good.

 

Right now we have evasion/mobility builds for general defense and damage mitigation to deal with mine layers.

 

Having to hard counter a single ship build by sacrificing survivability against the rest of the enemy squadron feels silly.

[Kuciwalker]

Evasion has nothing to do with maximum potential burst, which is what I was discussing in that particular quote. The claim was that a TT burst could one-shot gunships; it cannot.

 

No, the claim was that a TT burst can come scarily close to one-shotting a typical scout (especially if the scout has prior battle damage).

[Armonddd]

It's kind of a shame that GSF has only two universal defenses: Evasion and getting the frack away from the guy shooting you.

 

Evasion isn't quite universal -- it doesn't apply to ordinance weapons, drones, or turrets. Being out of range is really the only truly universal counter (since there's still a few things that ignore line of sight and physical dodging).

 

Excluding bugs, though, you're right about that. The second part is good, the first part makes me sad.

 

Having to hard counter a single ship build by sacrificing survivability against the rest of the enemy squadron feels silly.

 

Quite.

 

No, the claim was that a TT burst can come scarily close to one-shotting a typical scout (especially if the scout has prior battle damage).

 

You're right. Dunno how I got gunship out of that. Gunship gunship gunship.

[Ramalina]

It's kind of a shame that GSF has only two universal defenses: Evasion and getting the frack away from the guy shooting you.

 

Plenty of weapons can get shield pierce and many completely negate damage reduction.

 

If damage reduction could be somewhere on par with evasion and if there was a way to improve shields to mitigate pierce it would do the game a world of good.

 

Right now we have evasion/mobility builds for general defense and damage mitigation to deal with mine layers.

 

Having to hard counter a single ship build by sacrificing survivability against the rest of the enemy squadron feels silly.

Range and line of sight are actually the only universal defenses.

 

Shield and Evasion both have many weapons that partially counter them and some weapons that completely counter them.

 

Shield piercing is partial on a lot of weapons, proton torps completely ignore shields, and ion weapons do so much shield damage that they're effectively a hard counter to shields.

 

Evasion is partially countered by accuracy and completely ignored by all missile weapons except rocket pods.

 

Damage reduction is countered by the fewest number of weapons compared to the other defenses, but those weapons counter it completely, have a much higher rate of fire than missiles, do damage in large bursts, and of course are the most popular weapons on what are arguably the two best designed ship types in the game. Or deadliest ship types at any rate. Damage reduction has the potential to be extremely over powered if there aren't strong counters to it, but it's different than the other defenses in that it only has complete counters rather than partial counters and that those counters are more likely to hit the ship than the counters to shield or evasion would be.

[Armonddd]

Range and line of sight are actually the only universal defenses.

 

Don't mines ignore LoS, or was that actually patched? I know drones didn't used to, but I got the impression that mines were still bugged.

[Ramalina]

Don't mines ignore LoS, or was that actually patched? I know drones didn't used to, but I got the impression that mines were still bugged.

 

You're right. I just fly into mines so infrequently that I tend forget about their ability to do damage.

[FridgeLM]

Don't mines ignore LoS, or was that actually patched? I know drones didn't used to, but I got the impression that mines were still bugged.

 

That isn't a bug.

[Kuciwalker]

Evasion isn't quite universal -- it doesn't apply to ordinance weapons, drones, or turrets. Being out of range is really the only truly universal counter (since there's still a few things that ignore line of sight and physical dodging).

 

False? Evasion absolutely works versus turrets (and I'm better vs drones as well although I don't have enough data points to be sure). I use dfield all the time on turret runs.

[Armonddd]

That isn't a bug.

 

It's not a bug that a mine hurts things on the other side of a structure without affecting the structure at all?

 

Really?

 

False? Evasion absolutely works versus turrets (and I'm better vs drones as well although I don't have enough data points to be sure). I use dfield all the time on turret runs.

 

You're right, not sure why I added turrets. It definitely doesn't do anything against drones, though (except maybe the piddly lasers no one cares about).

[Kuciwalker]

It's not a bug that a mine hurts things on the other side of a structure without affecting the structure at all?

 

Really?

 

Really. This is how AOE has always worked in SWTOR.

[FridgeLM]

It's not a bug that a mine hurts things on the other side of a structure without affecting the structure at all?

 

Really?

 

Are you really asking for aoe effects to damage objective structures?

 

Are we playing minecraft now? Red Faction 1?

 

Yes, really, that is not a bug. Completely intentional, mines are not drones.

Edited April 26, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Zoom_VI]

Really. This is how AOE has always worked in SWTOR.

 

Actually no, in ground pvp, AoE effects respect structures. It has always been like that except for a few bugged abilities that where fixed ages ago.

[FridgeLM]

Actually no, in ground pvp, AoE effects respect structures. It has always been like that except for a few bugged abilities that where fixed ages ago.

 

I play a sniper.

 

Neither orbital nor suppressive fire respect LOS. I know, because I've shot people on the other side of the cap node in CW with suppressive fire.

Edited April 26, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Verain]

It's not a bug that a mine hurts things on the other side of a structure without affecting the structure at all?

 

Really?

 

Yes, really. Everything is like this, including ion aoe, which has been in the game since launch. If this wasn't intended, the devs would definitely have mentioned it at some point.

[Zoom_VI]

I play a sniper.

 

Neither orbital nor suppressive fire respect LOS. I know, because I've shot people on the other side of the cap node in CW with suppressive fire.

 

That's a property of the Alderaan nodes only, you cannot however hit someone on the far side of a wall, nor can you sit behind the Novare bunker and stop cappers on the other side with AoE.

[Armonddd]

Are you really asking for aoe effects to damage objective structures?

 

No, I'm asking for LoS to actually work and make sense. I can't shoot through walls with my lasers, why do my explosions go through wall?

 

Really. This is how AOE has always worked in SWTOR.

Yes, really, that is not a bug. Completely intentional, mines are not drones.

Yes, really. Everything is like this, including ion aoe, which has been in the game since launch. If this wasn't intended, the devs would definitely have mentioned it at some point.

 

This is really stupid, and I'm glad I don't touch ground PvP. Further, there's zero reason for it to work this way in GSF except poor coding (...which is why it works that way in the ground game, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised).

[Zoom_VI]

This is really stupid, and I'm glad I don't touch ground PvP. Further, there's zero reason for it to work this way in GSF except poor coding (...which is why it works that way in the ground game, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised).

Except it does work in the ground game, but for some reason whatever makes AoE respect objects in the ground game is not applied to space.

[Devrius]

Except it does work in the ground game, but for some reason whatever makes AoE respect objects in the ground game is not applied to space.

 

This is really annoying in GSF, I mean we have one universal defense( evasion has a few shortcomings) : LoS enemies and generally not being where someone can shoot you yet there are weapons that can work around that...

[FridgeLM]

No, I'm asking for LoS to actually work and make sense. I can't shoot through walls with my lasers, why do my explosions go through wall?

 

Explosive shockwaves travel through objects in real life. A satellite is not a bunker, the concussive effect of an explosion should rightly hit you if you're in its area of effect.

 

I can't believe people think this is even a problem, and it's evidence of your myopic tendency to view everything through a battle scout's eyes.

[Zoom_VI]

Explosive shockwaves travel through objects in real life. A satellite is not a bunker, the concussive effect of an explosion should rightly hit you if you're in its area of effect.

If I'm sitting in a trench and a grenade lands in the dirt two feet in front of my trench, the shockwave isn't going to blow my head off in fact the only thing that grenade is going to do is shower some dirt on my head.

 

I can't believe people think this is even a problem, and it's evidence of your myopic tendency to view everything through a battle scout's eyes.

 

NO NOES ITS DEM EVIL BATTLE SCOUT'S CONSPIRING AGAIN!!

Edited April 27, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[FridgeLM]

If I'm sitting in a trench and a grenade lands in the dirt two feet in front of my trench, the shockwave isn't going to blow my head off in fact the only thing that grenade is going to do is shower some dirt on my head.

 

Pretty sure it's reasonable to assume that an anti-ship space mine has considerably more explosive power than a hand-thrown antipersonnel fragmentation grenade, which is designed to kill and maim by flinging shrapnel, not with explosive force (hence the name). There exist high explosive grenades but they're not nearly as widely used to kill people.

 

If you want to use an example it's more like hiding behind a concrete wall won't protect you from a fuel air or nuclear bomb if you're inside its area of effect.

 

NO NOES ITS DEM EVIL BATTLE SCOUT'S CONSPIRING AGAIN!!

 

I attack the viewpoint because it's fundamentally narrow. Frankly there's a lot of that going on in this subforum.

Edited April 27, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Devrius]

I can't believe people think this is even a problem, and it's evidence of your myopic tendency to view everything through a battle scout's eyes.

 

Wait, so the obvious bug of mines killing players through solid objects is an evil conspiracy from the scout pilots? 0.o

 

WAT?

[Verain]

It's not any kind of bug, and certainly not an "obvious" one. A bug would be like, if just seismics worked that way.

 

EVERY aoe works this way. You know what else works this way? Literally EVERYTHING except railgun direct hits, missile locks, and blasters.

 

 

Here, lets add to your list of "obviously bugged" aoe, shall we?

 

-Ion railgun AOE.

-Slicer's Loop

-Lockdown

-In Your Sights

-Servo Jammer

-Suppression

-Lingering Effect

-Wingman (it's aoe)

-Running Interference (it's aoe)

-Sensor Beacon's aoe buff/debuff

-Repair Probes

-Command Aura

-Tensor Field

-Shield Projector

-Interdiction Field

-Interdiction Sentry Drone's Interdiction Effect

-Repair Drone's aoe heal effect

-Your ability to communicate with allies

-Your ability to detect incoming enemies

-Your ability to sensor dampen, for that matter

-Seismic Mine explosion

-Interdiction Mine explosion

-AOE version of seeker mine explosion

-Concussion mine explosion

-Ion mine explosion

 

 

 

So why pick and choose?

 

 

THE WHOLE GAME WORKS LIKE THIS MAN NOT A BUG SORRY

[Zoom_VI]

Wait, so the obvious bug of mines killing players through solid objects is an evil conspiracy from the scout pilots? 0.o

 

WAT?

 

No he apparently is under the assumption that "battle scouts" have formed some sinister conspiracy to flood the forums with ideas opposite to his.

[Zoom_VI]

THE WHOLE GAME WORKS LIKE THIS MAN NOT A BUG SORRY

 

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

Back when the game launched you could pop clicky adrenals and power relics and two shot people, and it was perfectly within game parameters and mechanics. However that doesn't mean that it should have been allowed to continue.