Kazz_Devlin Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Come on guys use your heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Oh please, this horse has been beaten to death four times over, and then shot a few times. Edited February 24, 2014 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 While always worth bringing up, we have a ton of threads on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwiftDuck Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The game was completely designed around the keyboard and mouse. Joystick support would be terrible. They would have to completely redesign the control system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguelukeswg Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The game was completely designed around the keyboard and mouse. Joystick support would be terrible. They would have to completely redesign the control system. joystick support would be simple, and only really issue they would have to address is damping for joysticks .. but even the mouse needs damping in the game to reduce movement when your not wanting a lot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 joystick support would be simple Actually it would not be. I definitely believe it would be worthwhile, but here's what they would need: 1)- They would need to implement another input, next to their current ones. 2)- They would need to test that. Make test code for it, set all that up. 3)- They would need to have a bunch of physical joysticks on top of the simulated ones for testing. 4)- The joystick can't just control the reticule, that makes no sense. It needs to control the ship straight up. So that's a whole different thing. If your joystick has a hat, maybe THAT can control the reticule, a likely small advantage for a joystick player with a good one. , and only really issue they would have to address is damping for joysticks .. but even the mouse needs damping in the game to reduce movement when your not wanting a lot.... While you can trivially adjust your mouse speed in software (and should, if you are in the surprisingly large number of people who think that the mouse is too fast), joysticks are nowhere as standardized. This would be a big change to the game, and it would also prevent GSF from just reusing SWTOR assets. I still would love it, but at this point we can't even get them to fix like null characters in XML at any rate faster than a month and a half, so expecting them to launch a huge feature with serious balance ramifications is definitely a nonstarter at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguelukeswg Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Actually it would not be. I definitely believe it would be worthwhile, but here's what they would need: 1)- They would need to implement another input, next to their current ones. 2)- They would need to test that. Make test code for it, set all that up. 3)- They would need to have a bunch of physical joysticks on top of the simulated ones for testing. 4)- The joystick can't just control the reticule, that makes no sense. It needs to control the ship straight up. So that's a whole different thing. If your joystick has a hat, maybe THAT can control the reticule, a likely small advantage for a joystick player with a good one. While you can trivially adjust your mouse speed in software (and should, if you are in the surprisingly large number of people who think that the mouse is too fast), joysticks are nowhere as standardized. This would be a big change to the game, and it would also prevent GSF from just reusing SWTOR assets. I still would love it, but at this point we can't even get them to fix like null characters in XML at any rate faster than a month and a half, so expecting them to launch a huge feature with serious balance ramifications is definitely a nonstarter at the moment. well on point 1) there is a microsoft page with codo on how to do it... including touch screens... 2) joysticks are pretty much standardized... min testing needed. 3) put it on a test server... thats what they are for.... 4) yes a joystick can control the ret,,,, why change it? its silly the mouse does now but no reason to change it ,,, as for the rest .... Joysticks have a generic handler in windows which would be the best way to implement... the mouse does as well... how do you thing 4-6+ button mice are used in games...... they dont code for each type that stopped with DX long ago..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmortalLowlife Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I'd be nice, there's quite a few ppl (myself included) who've been asking for joystick/controller support since BEFORE GSF launched. But I've given up any hope it'll actually happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendul Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Even if they had joystick support the joystick crowd would still complain because the keyboard and mouse players out maneuvering them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguelukeswg Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Even if they had joystick support the joystick crowd would still complain because the keyboard and mouse players out maneuvering them. game pad users yes.. real joystick users no... real joysticks have much finer control then game pads or even the mouse. sad part is even android cell phones and tablets have joystick support either through bluetooth or the micro usb and many games support these joysticks. (many of these same devices also have HDMI ablities) yet we have a computer game with out this support, that should have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaskar Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 this is a mmo minigame not a simulator. Get over it play star citizen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahWSD Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Well said my good necromancers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguelukeswg Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) this is a mmo minigame not a simulator. Get over it play star citizen] Jump to light speed in star wars galaxies was a mini game.... it had joystick support. hell it would have even been fine to have this control setup 30 years ago in a game... not today..... you put the controls players expect out of the sort of game you create, even a mini game... space simulator based on the SW theem you put joystick support.... Guess since it seems this has been a long going issue people really need to complain to Lucas Arts about the poorly designed mini game Edited September 4, 2014 by roguelukeswg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magira Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Come on guys use your heads. Brew your own head and http://joytokey.net/en/ or one of the other various programs. BTW: Even Freelancer (Best Space Game ever) had NO joystick support . Edited September 4, 2014 by Magira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) well on point 1) there is a microsoft page with codo on how to do it... Again, copy paste from the internet is not going to cut it for a company. They will need extensive testing as well. 2) joysticks are pretty much standardized... min testing needed. Not true, and you miss the other angle here- they would need to provide a configurator, much as they do for keyboards. 3) put it on a test server... thats what they are for.... TIL you don't work in software. Also that you don't know much GSF history. GSF is almost impossible to put on the test realm, if you didn't know- queues never pop without the whole forum making it happen. I don't mean rare, I mean, they do not pop for days on end. 4) yes a joystick can control the ret,,,, why change it? its silly the mouse does now but no reason to change it ,,, And then it was funny. Because, if you want the joystick to control the reticule, you just need to treat your joystick as a mouse, and a million other programs do that. And those same programs can map your joystick buttons to keys too. If YOU want a solution this ghetto, it's already there for you. Have at it. I wouldn't be interested unless they did it correctly. The joystick controls THE SHIP, and something else- likely the hat- lets you move the reticule. This would be what a joystick naturally is- a superior input device to a mouse in a case like this. If you just want to pretend the joystick is a mouse, stop complaining and go do it- that stuff has been around forever. a generic handler in windows which would be the best way to implement... the mouse does as well... how do you thing 4-6+ button mice are used in games...... they dont code for each type that stopped with DX long ago..... Not what I said, and not relevant. Again, if you want an OS level solution, that you can already get. Edited September 4, 2014 by Verain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendul Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) game pad users yes.. real joystick users no... real joysticks have much finer control then game pads or even the mouse. sad part is even android cell phones and tablets have joystick support either through bluetooth or the micro usb and many games support these joysticks. (many of these same devices also have HDMI ablities) yet we have a computer game with out this support, that should have it. Notice that they say that the very K&M setup that is used in GSF is too OP for a joystick to hang with. The action in GSF is too fast for Joystick users to keep up. Yes in slower flight sims like War Thunder things might be somewhat equitable, but in GSF there is no way. And just to really drive the point home. There is insurmountable evidence that developers when porting between the two, have to dumb things down for the controller users. The only way a joystick user could possibly compete with a M&K user in GSF is if they had aim-assist AKA: aimbot Edited September 4, 2014 by Lendul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) It's a fallacy. A joystick is vastly superior to keyboard and mouse. You of course have to actually make the joystick do its actual job, not halfassed. Right now, for instance, you need to move the reticule farther than you may like to be able to move your ship at the correct rate. A joystick has no qualms here, the ship responds instantly. The mouse allows you to take shots off center, and the hat of a joystick could do this just about as well (actually better if it fully analog- hat full left could mean full left of targeting circle, whereas the mouse has to kind of just guess). You'd have a whole second axis of control. Obviously, if you just make the joystick move the reticule meant to be moved by a mouse, it is trashcan, because a mouse can move that reticule instantly, and it's the only axis of control. The keyboard/mouse versus joystick thing gets a lot of hatred because devs often make the mistake of allowing a "first person shooter" hero to turn instantly, with infinite acceleration and jerk, and stop perfectly and fire, a high skill cap thing that is ludicrously unrealistic and in many cases is materially impossible even for a robot. It is kept because fans of the genre like the skill required to do it, forgetting about the fact that a real human being couldn't make such a reposition / twist. Without a turning radius cap, mouse users have a very unfair advantage, because they are controlling what amount to a mental construct at the speed of computing. Of course that's going to be better, the joystick can't do anything like that. The joystick is meant to control a physical device, and a game that models that will get vastly superior input with a joystick. If the above scheme was implemented, you can rest assured that this forum would be RIFE with complaints from players complaining about how the game is "pay to win" because you "need a 110 dollar thrustbonermasterflightdong" to compete. And, they'd be kind of correct, but the difference between a good mouse and a bad one is almost that much, and the difference larger on live. A mouse can't compete with a joystick, period. Unless you are competing in a fictional world totally designed to a mouse, such as most FPSs, which don't seek to model anything resembling reality. Those "point the screen" games feature too many infinities to map to anything in the real world. Edited September 5, 2014 by Verain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammyGStatus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It's a fallacy. A joystick is vastly superior to keyboard and mouse. You of course have to actually make the joystick do its actual job, not halfassed. Right now, for instance, you need to move the reticule farther than you may like to be able to move your ship at the correct rate. A joystick has no qualms here, the ship responds instantly. The mouse allows you to take shots off center, and the hat of a joystick could do this just about as well (actually better if it fully analog- hat full left could mean full left of targeting circle, whereas the mouse has to kind of just guess). You'd have a whole second axis of control. Obviously, if you just make the joystick move the reticule meant to be moved by a mouse, it is trashcan, because a mouse can move that reticule instantly, and it's the only axis of control. The keyboard/mouse versus joystick thing gets a lot of hatred because devs often make the mistake of allowing a "first person shooter" hero to turn instantly, with infinite acceleration and jerk, and stop perfectly and fire, a high skill cap thing that is ludicrously unrealistic and in many cases is materially impossible even for a robot. It is kept because fans of the genre like the skill required to do it, forgetting about the fact that a real human being couldn't make such a reposition / twist. Without a turning radius cap, mouse users have a very unfair advantage, because they are controlling what amount to a mental construct at the speed of computing. Of course that's going to be better, the joystick can't do anything like that. The joystick is meant to control a physical device, and a game that models that will get vastly superior input with a joystick. If the above scheme was implemented, you can rest assured that this forum would be RIFE with complaints from players complaining about how the game is "pay to win" because you "need a 110 dollar thrustbonermasterflightdong" to compete. And, they'd be kind of correct, but the difference between a good mouse and a bad one is almost that much, and the difference larger on live. A mouse can't compete with a joystick, period. Unless you are competing in a fictional world totally designed to a mouse, such as most FPSs, which don't seek to model anything resembling reality. Those "point the screen" games feature too many infinities to map to anything in the real world. You sir have just nicknamed my next HOTAS. Long Live the THRUSTBONEMASTERFLIGHTDONG!!! Seriously though, try Star Citizen - speeds will be doubled with the next patch, there is racing, it's running on the same engine as crisis (though heavily tweaked), and it's absolutely incredible to fly with 3 monitors from the cockpit of your hornet. TrackIR is also slated to be included, so head capture motion will be amazing..... Ya know, SWTOR could do Joystick just controlling the physical ship IF it supported (and I guess kinda demanded) that everyone who wanted to play with a joystick had to use TrackIR to keep track of where your guns are aiming.... Maybe I'm not thinking that out fully, but the TrackIR would act as the hat the same way that Verain describes. I guess it wouldn't be MANDATORY, but it would increase accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Syntinen Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) You can make a good flight model for Joystick. You can make a good flight model for Mouse. GSF very much has the latter. I don't believe you could ever have a good model for both at once, in same game. Best case scenario: one ends up being far superior to the other. This is a bad thing in environment where PvP is pretty big part of the experience. Most likely scenario: Both suck due to various severe compromises. Design GSF for Joysticks and you kill GSF. In case you haven't noticed, almost nobody has a joystick anymore. They are great , essential and very atmospheric for most serious flight sims..and ok even for arcade stuff portrayed from eyes of pilot. (X wing, Wing Commander etc) However, when it comes to arcade flying in general..world has moved on. Good mouse is far better for GSF. Joystick support would be waste of time from devs. Rather give us some sort of PvE or more maps and stuff! Joystick works for some another game. Edited September 7, 2014 by _Syntinen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamascusAdontise Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Some years ago I bought a nice joystick for use in SWG/JTL, I have found that many/most games just ignore this aspect. Sucks since the joystick provides the "steady" that a mouse lacks, but I digress. IMO the reticule as it stands now would be difficult to integrate with joystick, without dialing up sensitivity I think it would be too slow. Now if we could lock the reticule, I think it would be fine. Sure you would not get those edge of the arc shots, but in the end with the increased stability it might be worth it for a skilled player or as someone who "wants" to play joystick. Anyways not going to happen but I would def try a locked reticule joystick port for GSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Some years ago I bought a nice joystick for use in SWG/JTL, I have found that many/most games just ignore this aspect. Sucks since the joystick provides the "steady" that a mouse lacks, but I digress. IMO the reticule as it stands now would be difficult to integrate with joystick, without dialing up sensitivity I think it would be too slow. Now if we could lock the reticule, I think it would be fine. Sure you would not get those edge of the arc shots, but in the end with the increased stability it might be worth it for a skilled player or as someone who "wants" to play joystick. Anyways not going to happen but I would def try a locked reticule joystick port for GSF. This thread has been hijacked by me and Rumina. Please do not ever write here if you aren't trolling or talking in French Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Some years ago I bought a nice joystick for use in SWG/JTL, I have found that many/most games just ignore this aspect. Sucks since the joystick provides the "steady" that a mouse lacks, but I digress. IMO the reticule as it stands now would be difficult to integrate with joystick, without dialing up sensitivity I think it would be too slow. Now if we could lock the reticule, I think it would be fine. Sure you would not get those edge of the arc shots, but in the end with the increased stability it might be worth it for a skilled player or as someone who "wants" to play joystick. Anyways not going to happen but I would def try a locked reticule joystick port for GSF. Personally I think both the current reticule and a locked reticule would offer different options. With a locked reticule you might be able to pull a tight turn that allows you to lock missiles and fire blasters. Whereas in the current game you'll likely have to choose between firing blasters or locking missiles but not both. Even without joystick support I think a locked reticule would have a lot to offer to the current control set up. Obviously being able to toggle locked/unlocked midflight would be the most ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Personally I think both the current reticule and a locked reticule would offer different options. With a locked reticule you might be able to pull a tight turn that allows you to lock missiles and fire blasters. Whereas in the current game you'll likely have to choose between firing blasters or locking missiles but not both. Even without joystick support I think a locked reticule would have a lot to offer to the current control set up. Obviously being able to toggle locked/unlocked midflight would be the most ideal. Gavin. Read the post above yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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