Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

[LadyKulvax]

Just so people understand properly, the Battle of Lehon consisted of.... two... Interdictor class-cruisers, that is literally all we see the entire time during the battle, two Sith capital ships, facing a much larger Republic fleet, there is zero sign of other Interdictors in the area, yet the Republic fleet is losing badly in the orbital battle, it's only when Bastila switches her powers over to the Republic fleet, does the Republic manage to break a hole through the blockade.

 

Also, no the Sith fleet is not decimated in the battle, we see multiple Interdictors make up Nihilus' fleet alone.

[Selenial]

The Flux Cannons on the Emperor's Space Station, something that does not exist in this scenario. However my point was that they did not suffer colossal losses, so I doubt Malgus was steam rolling them.

 

Of course without hijacking the space station, he would have won.

 

Yes, her point was the Ship to Ship malgus was winning.

 

Also, really, think about it.

 

We're talking the Republic and Imperial fleet here, Likely outnumbered the Stealthed Armada 10-1, and the Armada was winning. It doesn't matter if they suffered collosal losses or not, they were doing superb.

 

[Selenial]

Also, I'd like to point out here, that from my Memory, I start with Capital Ships from Santhe/Sienar.

 

That means I start with Interdictors, to yank his ships out of hyperspace. I start with multiple different types of Star Destroyers too, to bolster my numbers.

[Beniboybling]

You're failing to take into account Fighters here, even with Superior Numbers, I'd quite easily outnumber their fighters by a lot. 497 (if I remember right) fighters per Venator, 16-or So Venators and that's 8000 fighters.

 

That's A LOT. That means tune's Ships need 90 Fighters per Capital Ship to equal the OCF, which wasn't how much they generally used.

 

Then of course, I've got a helluvalotta Tie Fighters etc from the Santhe/Sienar company, AND another 1270 fighters from my Harrowers Alone....

 

Ok, that can be confusing, so let me put it like this. with all the ships of that class that I have...

Venators - 8000 fighters.

Harrowers - 1270 fighters

Acclamator - 480. That's Standard, though they can replace ground Vehicles with Starfighters, so that menas they can hold an extra 1452 if they want.

I dont know Terminus Numbers, so let's factor those out.

 

Then theirs God knows how many from Sienar.

 

And the fact that any fighters from the Stealth fleet, are, you know, Stealthed...

 

I think my fighters hold an advantage you are not taking into account.

The OCF has 17 vessels in total, so I highly doubt you have sixteen Venators. Probably more like 10+. And its 420 so that's roughly 4200 fighters. However I'd need information on Alliance fighters before making an assessment.

 

I also doubt they'll deploy them all at once, I expect that's both tactically ineffective and a waste. I expect if there were over four thousand fighters in the sky, as well as that of enemies, they'd probably crash into each other.

 

Stealthed fighters being an absolute nightmare for their non-stealthed allies, they can't even see them.

[Aurbere]

Just so people understand properly, the Battle of Lehon consisted of.... two... Interdictor class-cruisers, that is literally all we see the entire time during the battle, two Sith capital ships, facing a much larger Republic fleet, there is zero sign of other Interdictors in the area, yet the Republic fleet is losing badly in the orbital battle, it's only when Bastila switches her powers over to the Republic fleet, does the Republic manage to break a hole through the blockade.

 

Also, no the Sith fleet is not decimated in the battle, we see multiple Interdictors make up Nihilus' fleet alone.

 

Well, Bastila was using her Battle Meditation against the Republic. So that didn't help the situation.

[LadyKulvax]

The Flux Cannons on the Emperor's Space Station, something that does not exist in this scenario. However my point was that they did not suffer colossal losses, so I doubt Malgus was steam rolling them.

 

Of course without hijacking the space station, he would have won.

 

They were going to as they were getting hammered and no they don't exist in this scenario but that was never the debate in the first place, the Flux Cannons destroy the dozen or so ships stationed around his Fortress, they were never used against the Imperial fleet itself, because Malgus' fleet is in the way, so intentionally the player is told to fire the Flux Cannons on the rear of Malgus' fleet, which combined with the Firepower of the Imperial Navy, destroys the dozen or so ships stationed there.

[Beniboybling]

Ahh, you are correct. I pretty much spacebar it now, so I guess I only remember the Imperial Version, even though I play predominantly republic.

Actually I think after that he goes one extra and takes over the turrets while the Reps are in Malgus' presence. And Malgus is liked "Well played." The activates the self destruct sequence. However we have to take into account that the space station doesn;t exist here, and it was a massive asset. Flux cannons that can destroy capital ships in one shot? Yeah the Reps and Imps would have to be able to contend with the fleet - else they'd have been annihilated.

[LadyKulvax]

Well, Bastila was using her Battle Meditation against the Republic. So that didn't help the situation.

 

Indeed, but two capital ships vs an entire armada of Republic Hammerheads, I think that pretty much evened out the contest.

[ShadowMudkip]

Actually I think after that he goes one extra and takes over the turrets while the Reps are in Malgus' presence. And Malgus is liked "Well played." The activates the self destruct sequence. However we have to take into account that the space station doesn;t exist here, and it was a massive asset. Flux cannons that can destroy capital ships in one shot? Yeah the Reps and Imps would have to be able to contend with the fleet - else they'd have been annihilated.

 

The point is, is that the vastly outnumbered stealth armada was able to hold its own against the combined might of the Republic and Imperial fleets. We shouldn't be comparing a stealthed ship to a regular ship as a stealthed ship is far superior.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Actually I think after that he goes one extra and takes over the turrets while the Reps are in Malgus' presence. And Malgus is liked "Well played." The activates the self destruct sequence. However we have to take into account that the space station doesn;t exist here, and it was a massive asset. Flux cannons that can destroy capital ships in one shot? Yeah the Reps and Imps would have to be able to contend with the fleet - else they'd have been annihilated.

 

No the shields just go down and that's when he says "well played" though he did say something about the Flux Cannons but he didn't have them cause Argos left.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

They were going to as they were getting hammered and no they don't exist in this scenario but that was never the debate in the first place, the Flux Cannons destroy the dozen or so ships stationed around his Fortress, they were never used against the Imperial fleet itself, because Malgus' fleet is in the way, so intentionally the player is told to fire the Flux Cannons on the rear of Malgus' fleet, which combined with the Firepower of the Imperial Navy, destroys the dozen or so ships stationed there.

If the Stealth Fleet is as powerful as presented, the fleets would have been crippled before the Flux Cannons turned on Malgus' fleet. Which happened at the very end of the battle and solidified their victory.

[Selenial]

The OCF has 17 vessels in total, so I highly doubt you have sixteen Venators. Probably more like 10+. And its 420 so that's roughly 4200 fighters. However I'd need information on Alliance fighters before making an assessment.

 

I also doubt they'll deploy them all at once, I expect that's both tactically ineffective and a waste. I expect if there were over four thousand fighters in the sky, as well as that of enemies, they'd probably crash into each other.

 

Stealthed fighters being an absolute nightmare for their non-stealthed allies, they can't even see them.

 

Ahh ok, my mistake there.

You said my original number was 19, but OK.

Venators were pretty much the prime use of the OCF, We see that in the clone wars. If I have 17 OCF, I'd have 14 venators (Probably) maybe 13.

 

Of course they'd be deployed slowly over time, point is, whilst the AOW has significantly less fighters, which goes down over time, the DI has an almost never ending supply.

 

Of course, Stealth Fighter problem could be gotten around by simply letting them work against different cruisers.

 

IE, Stealth Fighters to the left, non stealth to the right

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just to note until this is all panned out, it's either the Republic Fleet or the Empire fleet battling Malgus' stealth fleet. Cause he only says "your fleet" not "the fleets" meaning 2.

 

Now canon wise could the two fleets be together attacking? Sure why not, but I only sumize that the stealth fleet would do well because of the Flux Cannons on the station and given that the shields were turned down, thus then the fleets could attack the station and get rid of the bigger threat which was the cannons.

[Beniboybling]

Indeed, but two capital ships vs an entire armada of Republic Hammerheads, I think that pretty much evened out the contest.

I can assure you there were more than

 

We were merely only shown two, we can't really expect the Sith Empire to have only two capital ships protecting not only their most valuable asset but a factory churning out dozens and dozens of vessels. It certainly would have been impossible for the Republic to have their escape cut off by two ships, one in front one behind? I doubt that.

[Selenial]

I can assure you there were more than

 

We were merely only shown two, we can't really expect the Sith Empire to have only two capital ships protecting not only their most valuable asset but a factory churning out dozens and dozens of vessels. It certainly would have been impossible for the Republic to have their escape cut off by two ships, one in front one behind? I doubt that.

 

Nice try.

Those ships were long after the battle, that shows Nothing of the battle itself.

 

Edit: Besides, Lehon was a secret, why would they need more than 2 ships??

Edited February 17, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

The point is, is that the vastly outnumbered stealth armada was able to hold its own against the combined might of the Republic and Imperial fleets. We shouldn't be comparing a stealthed ship to a regular ship as a stealthed ship is far superior.

Vastly outnumbered? It was the entire Expeditionary Fleet - 25% of the Empire's navy. 75 vessels.

 

In this case they certainly are outnumbered the stealth fleet 6 to 1 and overall 3 to 1.

 

They also possess inferior tacticians and have no doom station.

[Selenial]

Vastly outnumbered? It was the entire Expeditionary Fleet - 25% of the Empire's navy. 75 vessels.

 

In this case they certainly are outnumbered the stealth fleet 6 to 1 and overall 3 to 1.

 

They also possess inferior tacticians and have no doom station.

 

Yes, 25% of the Imperial navy, against the Imperial and Republic fleets.

 

Vastly outnumbered.

[LadyKulvax]

If the Stealth Fleet is as powerful as presented, the fleets would have been crippled before the Flux Cannons turned on Malgus' fleet. Which happened at the very end of the battle and solidified their victory.

 

Let me lay out how this officially went:

 

BOTH the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic attacks Malgus right off the bat when he announces his Empire to the galaxy, but his fleet holds it own and starts winning way before the Space Station is even attacked, in multiple battles.

 

Meanwhile one of the factions sends a strike team to attack the Space Station, his Military HQ, on-board one of Malgus' fighters, again Malgus' fleet is fighting both navies in one big campaign and is winning.

 

Part of Malgus' fleet is stationed specifically around the Space Station and it is attacked in vain by one of the sides, eventually however the Strike-team turns the Flux Cannons on and fires them into the rear of the ships that are protecting the Space Station itself, this along with the firepower of the other navies, destroys the dozen or so ships protecting the station itself and with the shields down, as well as basically no weapons to defend itself with, the Space Station is practically disabled.

 

That is how the space battle goes, it's Malgus Stealth Fleet vs the Republic Navy & the Imperial Navy simultaneously, this is one big campaign not just one battle round his Space Station.

 

TL;DR the MSF faces both the Republic Navy and the Imperial Navy and is winning, until the Space Station is destroyed, Malgus is dead and the three-way war is over.

Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[ShadowMudkip]

Vastly outnumbered? It was the entire Expeditionary Fleet - 25% of the Empire's navy. 75 vessels.

 

In this case they certainly are outnumbered the stealth fleet 6 to 1 and overall 3 to 1.

 

They also possess inferior tacticians and have no doom station.

 

We don't know if Malgus had his whole fleet in the battle.

[Selenial]

Beni, i'd also like to Add to your little Numbers game....

 

Bayonet-class light cruiser

Enforcer-class Picket Ship (with Kuat Drive Yards)

Guardian-class light cruiser

Guardian 344-class light cruiser

Immobilizer-418 Interdictor-class Heavy Cruiser

Immobilizer-418A Interdictor-class Heavy Cruiser

Imperial Research Ship

Interdictor-class Cruiser

IPV/1 Patrol Craft

IPV/4 Patrol Craft

IPV/h Patrol Craft

IR-3F Patrol Craft

ISB Operations Ship

Lianna-class Corvette

Light Patrol Ship

Marauder-class Corvette

Sienar Battleship

Vindicator-class heavy cruiser

Warden-class light cruiser

 

Are the starting Garrison of the Sienar Fleet. However, Seeing as Traya's fleet would want more Capital cruisers, this list would likely be tuned down to the 5 Capital Cruisers, and Instead of making the Rest of the ships, they'd make more cruisers.

 

So the Starting Garrison would probably be along the lines of 8 cruisers.... Bringing my numbers to 42, closer to half the AOW.

[Beniboybling]

I fail to see how that disputes my point. A pair of fleets likely of similar size engage each other. Funnily enough the fleet with stealth, Rakata tech and flux cannons begins to win. But once the station is taken out of the equation and the flux cannons turned against the stealthed ships. The opposing fleet wins and escapes without suffering critical damage.

 

In what way can that be interpreted as the stealth fleet being capable of crushing the enemy fleet with little difficulty? As I said they would have been crippled before the strike team even got to Malgus, they were not.

 

Anyway I think its better if we focus on the actual debate at hand specifically.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Nice try.

Those ships were long after the battle, that shows Nothing of the battle itself.

 

Edit: Besides, Lehon was a secret, why would they need more than 2 ships??

So why are they there now exactly? Expecting the Death Star? The second coming of Christ?

 

And were were all those ships hiding? In another galaxy perhaps?

 

A fleet of over 100 ships does not simply appear stationery around Lehon after a week or so of there only being two for no reason, or at all for that matter. At least a portion of that armada must have been there before, its only logical.

 

What is far less logical is that a pair of Interdictors could stand against the full might of the Republic Navy (why the hell build 100 more! A third would do the trick!) and actually manage to block of their escape, they aren't big enough.

 

Two ships does not constitute an armada. We merely saw two, no evidence suggests otherwise.

[LadyKulvax]

We don't know if Malgus had his whole fleet in the battle.

 

He didn't, he was fighting a war, not just a battle, there are repeated instances where they state clearly that his Empire has attacked both sides across the Northern Corridor, like I said, this was a campaign not just one battle.

[Beniboybling]

We don't know if Malgus had his whole fleet in the battle.

Well given from that Lady said, the Republic and the Empire would have been spread thin as well.

[Selenial]

I fail to see how that disputes my point. A pair of fleets likely of similar size engage each other. Funnily enough the fleet with stealth, Rakata tech and flux cannons begins to win. But once the station is taken out of the equation and the flux cannons turned against the stealthed ships. The opposing fleet wins and escapes without suffering critical damage.

 

In what way can that be interpreted as the stealth fleet being capable of crushing the enemy fleet with little difficulty? As I said they would have been crippled before the strike team even got to Malgus, they were not.

 

Anyway I think its better if we focus on the actual debate at hand specifically.

 

Because of course, the Republic and Empire would send more ships than needed to ensure victory, just to make sure.

 

They'd also send even more, to make sure that after the battle, there's no chance that the other fleet would be able to turn on them and destroy them too.

 

So all in all, they'd send every available fleet, each navy likely doubled Malgus', bringing them to 4-1. And as Rayla said, the Flux Cannons wouldn't be able to do much against the Far off fleets because they'd risk hitting Malgus' fleet, THAT WAS STATED TO BE WEDGED IN BETWEEN THE STATION AND THE TWO NAVIES.

 

Thought I'd bold that part so you get it into your head The Flux canons weren't helping Malgus as much as you think.