Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

[Selenial]

never mind stealthed Harrower-class Dreadnoughts.

 

Speaking of Harrowers, Beni you promised me quotes on Harrowers from the SWTORE beause I typed out (pretty much) an entire chapter of TFU Novel for you...

[Aurbere]

Stealthed fleets are the most powerful forces in the entirety of naval warfare, they are almost impossible to defeat, Malgus used his fleet very poorly and that is how he lost, however in all other examples, stealth fleets or fighter wings are always used as the plot device that can win a war, because they are so difficult to fight back against, I really wouldn't under-estimate how damn valuable stealthed ships are, never mind stealthed Harrower-class Dreadnoughts.

 

If I am underestimating them, it's not intentional.

[Aurbere]

Speaking of Harrowers, Beni you promised me quotes on Harrowers from the SWTORE beause I typed out (pretty much) an entire chapter of TFU Novel for you...

 

I didn't get nothing for the stuff I typed out for him...

[Wolfninjajedi]

He won't have enough to put aboard all the ships.

 

And I think you're forgetting, the Shadow Troopers were ALL elite troops as it is, put stealth on top of that....

 

I'm not forgetting, but Rebel SpecForce are ALL elite troops too. They have stealth? Fine, but it's not like they can just stealth all the time without being picked up, their stealth doesn't last forever. Plus Shadow Troopers aren't meant for ship combat, they can be used for it, but SpaceOps is gonna have the advantage of knowing how to fight aboard starships. Ontop of that, SpecForce can just have sensor tech to locate the Shadows even if they are invisible.

[ShadowMudkip]

Ok, here is why Sel's fleet is superior.

1. Trench is a naval genius, he is a very smart and capable tactician. He is also an expert on stealth ships, as he was able to find a way to destroy them while stealthed. Because of this expertise, he can probably eliminate any weaknesses the stealth fleet would have.

2. As Selenial possesses an ordinary fleet, and a stealth type fleet, it would be extremely easy to flank the enemy fleets and hit them from all sides. If the stealth fleet can't be detected, it would be capable of outmaneuvering fleets and bypassing blockades.

3. Darth Traya can use some of her foresight to find out enemy fleet movements.

[Selenial]

I'm not forgetting, but Rebel SpecForce are ALL elite troops too. They have stealth? Fine, but it's not like they can just stealth all the time without being picked up, their stealth doesn't last forever. Plus Shadow Troopers aren't meant for ship combat, they can be used for it, but SpaceOps is gonna have the advantage of knowing how to fight aboard starships. Ontop of that, SpecForce can just have sensor tech to locate the Shadows even if they are invisible.

 

Indeed, But how much SpecFore spacetroopers even were there? Because Tune's forces were decreased Dramatically.

And again, just stealthing, dealing with any close by, then planting SOME bombs to detonate would be enough to cripple a cruiser, or just sabotage the Missile Launch bays to explode whilst the Missiles are still in the bay... Or just fight to the bridge whilst stealthed (because it'd last long enough) and set it to Self Destruct

[Wolfninjajedi]

Indeed, But how much SpecFore spacetroopers even were there? Because Tune's forces were decreased Dramatically.

And again, just stealthing, dealing with any close by, then planting SOME bombs to detonate would be enough to cripple a cruiser, or just sabotage the Missile Launch bays to explode whilst the Missiles are still in the bay... Or just fight to the bridge whilst stealthed (because it'd last long enough) and set it to Self Destruct

 

They were? How much?

 

Though I don't think so, their stealth is noted to only last a short time. So I don't think they would be able to be completely stealthed all the way to the bridge without getting noticed.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

I cant believe I actually have to defend my faction in Naval Combat right now. Do I need to remind everyone the Massive numerical disadvantage that Sel Faces EVEN in fighter numbers. My Viscount could take the ENTIRE stealth fleet SOLO simply based on armorment and shielding.

 

Wedge is a tactical genious and one of the best tactitians from the New Republic and Galactic Alliance and during the Second gallactic civil war he was the lead commander of Correlian Defense Force. Luke and Leia planned many operations against the Empire all hit and run as well, And honestly if we were to go by Warren's numbers given for breakdowns of Navies I would have an equal number or MORE stealth ships then you have a Fleet.

 

 

 

I didnt want to waste time on givens.

 

Given 1: If we face in space combat you get decimated

 

Given 2: In conventional war my numbers of both standard fighters, with elite fighters and heavy equipment means I win there as well

 

Given 3: If Leia lands on Malachor V she likely dies.

 

 

So can we not waste time on these arguements.

[LadyKulvax]

Speaking of Harrowers, Beni you promised me quotes on Harrowers from the SWTORE beause I typed out (pretty much) an entire chapter of TFU Novel for you...

 

"Reinforced forward structures allows full-speed ramming if necessary"

"Dual forward hangars enable rapid starfighter deployment."

"Turbolaser batteries equipped with linked targeting systems for maximum combined fire."

"Heavy armor plating capable of absorbing tremendous amounts of enemy fire"

"Command tower equipped with multiple point-defense turrets"

"Recessed sensors and communication equipment minimizes risk of damage from enemy fire."

 

"With colossal dreadnoughts, deadly starfighters, superior numbers and devastating weaponry, the imperial navy has won more victories for the empire than all other forces combined. The mere rumor of Imperial ships approaching a planet has been known to incite panicking and riots, while their arrival elicits surrender more often than resistance. This fearsome reputation is a testament to the discipline and skill of the Empire's starship crews, as well as the tremendous capabilities of the ships themselves."

 

"Harrower-Class Dreadnought;

The mainstay of the Imperial Navy and active symbol of the Empire's power, Harrower-Class Dreadnoughts are among the most powerful and deadly starships ever designed. The ships' wedge-shaped hull allows virtually all of its firepower to be concentrated directly forward, while also helping to minimize the ship's massive profile and deflect damage from head-on fire. Most servicemen consider the Harrower to be the high standrad against which all other Imperial ships are judged, and these ships' crews often conduct themselves accordingly, offering only token respect for anyone who serves on a "lesser" vessel."

 

That is pretty much all the Harrower-class has dedicated to it, the rest you can find on the ship's Wookiee page.

Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Ok, here is why Sel's fleet is superior.

1. Trench is a naval genius, he is a very smart and capable tactician. He is also an expert on stealth ships, as he was able to find a way to destroy them while stealthed. Because of this expertise, he can probably eliminate any weaknesses the stealth fleet would have.

2. As Selenial possesses an ordinary fleet, and a stealth type fleet, it would be extremely easy to flank the enemy fleets and hit them from all sides. If the stealth fleet can't be detected, it would be capable of outmaneuvering fleets and bypassing blockades.

3. Darth Traya can use some of her foresight to find out enemy fleet movements.

 

You reminded me... I forgot the Trench Quotes

 

Veteran of Countless Conflicts

Long lived, Agressive, and Tough. Well into his second century...

Much Needed Experience

Trench made a name for himself during that struggle, defending secundus ando against Raiders.

Ando's Greatest Military Leader

Trench's ruthless tactics

Destroyed Pirate Bases, Seized the kurosti merchant fleet, and Masterminded the Corporate Alliance's assault on Malastare.

In the subsequent confrontation, Trench's flaghip was destroyed and the Alliance forced to Retreat, but many Republic ships were lost, and the ensuing Scandal embarrassed Valorum

- Note, this only happened after Trench repelled the Initial Wave of Republic Ships.

Trench Survived

Trench was once again listed as KIA, but Yularen had his doubts

- And Yularen was right, As Trench's tough Hide allowed him to survive the explosion of an entire Dreadnought.

[tunewalker]

They were? How much?

 

Though I don't think so, their stealth is noted to only last a short time. So I don't think they would be able to be completely stealthed all the way to the bridge without getting noticed.

 

I have 1 division or 10,000 spec force Members or around 1,200 SpaceSpec forces. Intersting thing I also Have Hapan Royal Gaurd as well as Hapan Marines to supplement these people. Also as you and I both know while Space ops were designed specifically for the task of taking on space boarders ALL 10,000 spec force troopers are Elite fighters and capable of doing the task as well as the Shadow troopers are capable of boarding it.

 

So ultimately I have as many Spec forces as Sel has Shadow troops.... + Spec ops + a Core of Rebel Troops + Hapan reinforcements.

[Selenial]

I cant believe I actually have to defend my faction in Naval Combat right now. Do I need to remind everyone the Massive numerical disadvantage that Sel Faces EVEN in fighter numbers. My Viscount could take the ENTIRE stealth fleet SOLO simply based on armorment and shielding.

 

Wedge is a tactical genious and one of the best tactitians from the New Republic and Galactic Alliance and during the Second gallactic civil war he was the lead commander of Correlian Defense Force. Luke and Leia planned many operations against the Empire all hit and run as well, And honestly if we were to go by Warren's numbers given for breakdowns of Navies I would have an equal number or MORE stealth ships then you have a Fleet.

 

 

 

I didnt want to waste time on givens.

 

Given 1: If we face in space combat you get decimated

 

Given 2: In conventional war my numbers of both standard fighters, with elite fighters and heavy equipment means I win there as well

 

Given 3: If Leia lands on Malachor V she likely dies.

 

 

So can we not waste time on these arguements.

 

Let me Reiterate here.

 

You have what, 140 ships??

 

Against the terrifying possibility of Harrowers and Terminus', along with insane amounts of Stealthed Fighters arriving at any of your Systems at any given time, you'd leave about 20 at each system.

 

That leaves 40 as an invading force.

 

Sure, my Fleet is 25 strong, but my Mandator II would put up a solid fight, and the Stealth Flanking makes a MASSIVE difference in any naval engagements. It'd mean the advantage of Mon Cala Shields is lost, it'd mean you're fleet has no real escape routes, your engines could be easily targetted...

 

And let's not forget here, as soon as the ship Wedge is on is Located, Traya or Maul could just send a Stealthed Terminus into it. 'Cause we've seen 5 naval officers be capable of piloting one alone, and the Assassins were pretty much under Traya's complete control.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Selenial

[Selenial]

I have 1 division or 10,000 spec force Members or around 1,200 SpaceSpec forces. Intersting thing I also Have Hapan Royal Gaurd as well as Hapan Marines to supplement these people. Also as you and I both know while Space ops were designed specifically for the task of taking on space boarders ALL 10,000 spec force troopers are Elite fighters and capable of doing the task as well as the Shadow troopers are capable of boarding it.

 

So ultimately I have as many Spec forces as Sel has Shadow troops.... + Spec ops + a Core of Rebel Troops + Hapan reinforcements.

 

And you have to spread them across ALL ships if you want this advantage, including defending forces, as opposed to me, who can dedicate them all to 5 ships If I really wanted to. Besides, Shadow Troopers would be finished before most of your forces arrive, you forget how huge these ships are.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I have 1 division or 10,000 spec force Members or around 1,200 SpaceSpec forces. Intersting thing I also Have Hapan Royal Gaurd as well as Hapan Marines to supplement these people. Also as you and I both know while Space ops were designed specifically for the task of taking on space boarders ALL 10,000 spec force troopers are Elite fighters and capable of doing the task as well as the Shadow troopers are capable of boarding it.

 

So ultimately I have as many Spec forces as Sel has Shadow troops.... + Spec ops + a Core of Rebel Troops + Hapan reinforcements.

 

So 1,200 SpecForce? Or 10k?

 

Either way you could actually make a couple of Platoons out of that. Of course you can't really stretch them to every ship, but could fill the important ones though with some.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[ShadowMudkip]

Let me Reiterate here.

 

You have what, 140 ships??

 

Against the terrifying possibility of Harrowers and Terminus', along with insane amounts of Stealthed Fighters arriving at any of your Systems at any given time, you'd leave about 20 at each system.

 

That leaves 40 as an invading force.

 

Sure, my Fleet is 25 strong, but my Mandator II would put up a solid fight, and the Stealth Flanking makes a MASSIVE difference in any naval engagements. It'd mean the advantage of Mon Cala Shields is lost, it'd mean you're fleet has no real escape routes, your engines could be easily targetted...

 

And let's not forget here, as soon as the ship Wedge is on is Located, Traya or Maul could just send a Stealthed Terminus into it. 'Cause we've seen 5 naval officers be capable of piloting one alone, and the Assassins were pretty much under Traya's complete control.

 

This^

When your stealth flanked, you are going to have no escape routes, no maneuverability, and no way to cover blind spots. Your engines can be easily destroyed and your bridges vulnerable if a stealthed dreadnought appears right next to you.

[tunewalker]

Let me Reiterate here.

 

You have what, 140 ships??

 

Against the terrifying possibility of Harrowers and Terminus', along with insane amounts of Stealthed Fighters arriving at any of your Systems at any given time, you'd leave about 20 at each system.

 

That leaves 40 as an invading force.

 

Sure, my Fleet is 25 strong, but my Mandator II would put up a solid fight, and the Stealth Flanking makes a MASSIVE difference in any naval engagements. It'd mean the advantage of Mon Cala Shields is lost, it'd mean you're fleet has no real escape routes, your engines could be easily targetted...

 

And let's not forget here, as soon as the ship Wedge is on is Located, Traya or Maul could just send a Stealthed Terminus into it. 'Cause we've seen 5 naval officers be capable of piloting one alone, and the Assassins were pretty much under Traya's complete control.

 

I need 10 as an invading Force.

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Viscount-class_Star_Defender

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mediator-class_battle_cruiser

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic-class_battle_carrier

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-class_Star_Destroyer

 

2 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hapan_Battle_Dragon

 

and a few other smaller warships to help scout and pick off extra fighters.

 

 

The rest would be left to defend, and all of my worlds are hours apart from one another. and only around 10 of your ships stealth and i can have the place set up with intradiction.

[Selenial]

I need 10 as an invading Force.

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Viscount-class_Star_Defender

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mediator-class_battle_cruiser

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic-class_battle_carrier

 

1 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-class_Star_Destroyer

 

2 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hapan_Battle_Dragon

 

and a few other smaller warships to help scout and pick off extra fighters.

 

 

The rest would be left to defend, and all of my worlds are hours apart from one another. and only around 10 of your ships stealth and i can have the place set up with intradiction.

 

Well to be Honest, Beni's numbers are Off, as Rayla has already stated Malgus' fleet numbered 75, which means I'd have 15 Stealthed Ships.

And Lol at those 10 ships facing off against 15 OCF ships and 15 MSF ships. And of course, Sienar Fighters. I'm not sure you remember, but the Venators alone can hold almost 500 fighters, I'd decimate your forces with Fighters.

 

Besides, your 140 ships does not just equal Capital ships, as Beni has already stated, it's 140 ships of (I think) corvettes or Higher. Sending 10 capital ships would leave few to defend.

[Beniboybling]

Considering the opposition against Tunewalker I'll step in for him here.

 

People seem to be forgetting the disparity in numbers here. The Alliance of Worlds has 140 ships at its disposal. The Dark Imperium has 25. That's six stealthed Harrowers and Terminus and roughly 19 Republic warships. These numbers are not designed nor are they capable of overrunning the enemy in direct conflicts. Regardless of stealth.

[Selenial]

Going a little more Vague as to why I'd win, but here goes anyway:

 

• Saleucami Cloning Vats - Cloned Assassins or Shadow Troopers make for a more lasting force. This was also relatively unknown, at least for GAR people, so It'd be a late strike unless found early.
  
• Malachor - Cannot be touched by Leia or Luke.
  
• Assassins - More info to come, but these faced Jedi 1v1, they were the equivalent of Sith, just far more terrifying and exhausting.
  
• Traya - Her Foresight would be invaluable. Her power is unmatched here.
  
• Maul - Could likely take Luke alone, as by this Stage luke has never faced a Duelist like him.
  
• Shadow Troopers - I mean come on. These guys were Elite Storm Troopers, equivalent of SpecForce as it is, let alone the fact they can stealth.
  
• Sienar/Santhe - Already went into this a lot last Kaggath, but these guys produce a massive variety of ships, and give me access to smaller Tanks on the ground too.
  
• HK-47 - Very skilled at taking Jedi down, Luke hasn't been shown to be able to deflect blast fire QUITE as skillfully as people during the Clone Wars, HK-47 would be an adequate distraction whilst Luke faced off against Others.
  
• Trench - Military Genius... 'Nuff Said.
  
• Terror Factor - One of the biggest advantages the Triumvirate had was fear, they sewed fear into enemy ranks faster than any other force has in Galactic History, some Republic troops, and even Naval officers, went mad with fear, and in one case even turned and shot a comrade.
  

[Selenial]

Considering the opposition against Tunewalker I'll step in for him here.

 

People seem to be forgetting the disparity in numbers here. The Alliance of Worlds has 140 ships at its disposal. The Dark Imperium has 25. That's six stealthed Harrowers and Terminus and roughly 19 Republic warships. These numbers are not designed nor are they capable of overrunning the enemy in direct conflicts. Regardless of stealth.

 

But Rayla already told you that MSF numbered 75, how that gets bumped to 6 I'll never know...

[Beniboybling]

Against the terrifying possibility of Harrowers and Terminus', along with insane amounts of Stealthed Fighters arriving at any of your Systems at any given time, you'd leave about 20 at each system.

 

That leaves 40 as an invading force.

That is highly unlikely. A fleet of 20 ships could probably hold out against your entire force, though it would ultimately be defeated. The point being that the chances of Traya dedicating her entire fleet to a single spot is slim indeed. So its more likely to be 10 or so on each planet, with some having planetary defenses that remove the need for dedicated fleets. Which leaves roughly 90 to 100 vessels possibly concentrating on a single planet with Imperium territory. Traya is going to have to apply more than brute force to succeed against those odds. Which at best will be 4 to 1.

[Beniboybling]

But Rayla already told you that MSF numbered 75, how that gets bumped to 6 I'll never know...

We've probably been through this already, but is their any evidence to suggest that?

[Selenial]

That is highly unlikely. A fleet of 20 ships could probably hold out against your entire force, though it would ultimately be defeated. The point being that the chances of Traya dedicating her entire fleet to a single spot is slim indeed. So its more likely to be 10 or so on each planet, with some having planetary defenses that remove the need for dedicated fleets. Which leaves roughly 90 to 100 vessels possibly concentrating on a single planet with Imperium territory. Traya is going to have to apply more than brute force to succeed against those odds. Which at best will be 4 to 1.

 

Well, my fleet numbers 34, stealth fleet alone is 15.

15 Stealthed vessels popping out of Stealth would catch a fleet of 20 completely off guard and probably end up victorious... And Traya doesn't need to spread her forces out, if when cut off from the force she could have Completely correct visions about specific individuals years away, she could predict an incoming fleet with her full connection.

[Selenial]

We've probably been through this already, but is their any evidence to suggest that?

 

That it was Malgus' expeditionary fleet that was converted into the Stealthed Armada, and that fleet numbered 75...

 

How else do you think Malgus got crews of entire Imperial Warships to defect? They were already loyal to him.

 

And even if it was 30 as you seem to think that's a testament to how powerful these ships are, 30 of them could end up ending the entire Imperial and Republic Navy?

Edited February 17, 2014 by Selenial

[ShadowMudkip]

Considering the opposition against Tunewalker I'll step in for him here.

 

People seem to be forgetting the disparity in numbers here. The Alliance of Worlds has 140 ships at its disposal. The Dark Imperium has 25. That's six stealthed Harrowers and Terminus and roughly 19 Republic warships. These numbers are not designed nor are they capable of overrunning the enemy in direct conflicts. Regardless of stealth.

 

The DI would most likely not engage in a brute force type space conflict. If they can provide a reasonable distraction, the DI could sneak past the enemy and wreck things. Besides, apart from Luke, the AOW has lightsaber capable warriors. Unless you want to send Leia in, but that would be dumb.