Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm not sure why people are pulling for DI space superiority. All it takes is one look at AoW ships. The only advantage stealth gives is surprise. This flanking stuff isn't even a good idea, because most ships have more turbolasers on their port and starboard than they do facing straight ahead. If stealthed ships flank AoW fleets, they'll just die quicker than in they attacked head-on. All the stealthed fleet will do is put the AoW on the defensive until the DI tries and fails several attacks. The DI doesn't have access to Ilum's crystals, so they have 15 stealthed ships and that's it. No more. Soon enough those ships will be destroyed and the AoW will be free to demolish the Open Circle Fleet. I understand that you just got here, but it's probably best to read the 18 pages. And remember last Kaggath. Because firstly, Beni said that you have access to what your fleet needs. Otherwise I could just say Tunewalker doesn't have access to the Ships Engines or Hyperdrives manufactured by Sienar and he can't make his either. Also, MSF's used Rakata Technology, their turbolasers were more powerful. They'f flank from Behind, not from Port or Starboard, so they'd disable the engines due to the lowered Shield Density tactics that most fleets employed. There is a reason we're debating this, don't just assume that it's Me, Rayla and Aurbere being completely Incompetent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm not sure why people are pulling for DI space superiority. All it takes is one look at AoW ships. The only advantage stealth gives is surprise. This flanking stuff isn't even a good idea, because most ships have more turbolasers on their port and starboard than they do facing straight ahead. If stealthed ships flank AoW fleets, they'll just die quicker than in they attacked head-on. All the stealthed fleet will do is put the AoW on the defensive until the DI tries and fails several attacks. The DI doesn't have access to Ilum's crystals, so they have 15 stealthed ships and that's it. No more. Soon enough those ships will be destroyed and the AoW will be free to demolish the Open Circle Fleet. As I said, the odds are not in their favour. They'll need more than brute force to win. Even in the instance that they are successful, they'll suffer massive casualties and have to contend with another 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm not sure why people are pulling for DI space superiority. All it takes is one look at AoW ships. The only advantage stealth gives is surprise. This flanking stuff isn't even a good idea, because most ships have more turbolasers on their port and starboard than they do facing straight ahead. If stealthed ships flank AoW fleets, they'll just die quicker than in they attacked head-on. All the stealthed fleet will do is put the AoW on the defensive until the DI tries and fails several attacks. The DI doesn't have access to Ilum's crystals, so they have 15 stealthed ships and that's it. No more. Soon enough those ships will be destroyed and the AoW will be free to demolish the Open Circle Fleet. This is a fleet of ships that not only have a unique Stealth system, but has Rakatan weaponry and shield technology at it's disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Are you referring to when they faced Palpatine? because that was on the same ship IIRC. Tune suggested in our own Kaggath that Leia could use Battle Meditation to effect an entire battle, but there is no evidence she can do so. I have no idea the circumstances behind that encounter, never read it. ... I mean, isn't that what battle meditation does? She has a "natural gift" for it, to say that she couldn't use it at the same level Basilta (who was only a Knight) did, seems a little bit unfair. Besides, Wookieepeida makes a clear difference between Battle Meditation and Battle Meld (which only affects force users). So obviously Leia can use ACTUAL Battle Meditation, which influences both ally and enemy forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The point that it only takes two Rakata ships to subvert a Republic armada? I wouldn't use such harsh terms but yes. Especially coming from the same folks who argued the Galactic Empire would actually stand a chance against the Rakata themselves. So yes, lets move on. No, the point that "Oh, republic ships went past some once so Malgus' fleet must suck!" Also, I have no idea what debate you're referring too, but the Galactic Empire would get stomped by the Rakata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 I understand that you just got here, but it's probably best to read the 18 pages. And remember last Kaggath. Because firstly, Beni said that you have access to what your fleet needs. Otherwise I could just say Tunewalker doesn't have access to the Ships Engines or Hyperdrives manufactured by Sienar and he can't make his either. Also, MSF's used Rakata Technology, their turbolasers were more powerful. They'f flank from Behind, not from Port or Starboard, so they'd disable the engines due to the lowered Shield Density tactics that most fleets employed. There is a reason we're debating this, don't just assume that it's Me, Rayla and Aurbere being completely Incompetent Well actually no... Tune gets that from his shipyards and what not. If you want additional crystals, you'll need a supplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Are you referring to when they faced Palpatine? because that was on the same ship IIRC. Tune suggested in our own Kaggath that Leia could use Battle Meditation to effect an entire battle, but there is no evidence she can do so.They have a strong Force Bond, so I'd assume so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have no idea the circumstances behind that encounter, never read it. ... I mean, isn't that what battle meditation does? She has a "natural gift" for it, to say that she couldn't use it at the same level Basilta (who was only a Knight) did, seems a little bit unfair. Besides, Wookieepeida makes a clear difference between Battle Meditation and Battle Meld (which only affects force users). So obviously Leia can use ACTUAL Battle Meditation, which influences both ally and enemy forces. Not really... Leia was never noted as an incredible Tactician, which is what most people who haev innate talents for Fleet wide battle meditation have are called (IE Surik) Bastilla was trained for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) There is a reason we're debating this, don't just assume that it's Me, Rayla and Aurbere being completely Incompetent I can already tell this is going to be a fun Kaggath. Edited February 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Well actually no... Tune gets that from his shipyards and what not. If you want additional crystals, you'll need a supplier. Umm... That's the complete opposite of what you said last time. No Tune doesn't get them from his shipyards, because people don't BUILD engines at Shipyards, they install them. Why else were Santhe/Sienar one of the galaxies largest suppliers of Starship Components? Shipyards are more like assembly lines Beni. They don't get scrap metal, bend it into shape, plug it into a valve, plug the valve into fuel... They just grab the engine and toss it into a ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Not really... Leia was never noted as an incredible Tactician, which is what most people who haev innate talents for Fleet wide battle meditation have are called (IE Surik) Bastilla was trained for it. Neither has Odan-Urr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have no idea the circumstances behind that encounter, never read it. ... I mean, isn't that what battle meditation does? She has a "natural gift" for it, to say that she couldn't use it at the same level Basilta (who was only a Knight) did, seems a little bit unfair. Besides, Wookieepeida makes a clear difference between Battle Meditation and Battle Meld (which only affects force users). So obviously Leia can use ACTUAL Battle Meditation, which influences both ally and enemy forces. But there are clearly varying degrees of potency and Leia has not once shown the ability to use it on such a big scale before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Not really... Leia was never noted as an incredible Tactician, which is what most people who haev innate talents for Fleet wide battle meditation have are called (IE Surik) Bastilla was trained for it. Leia was trained for it too.... And Battle Meditation isn't about being a tactician. It's about boosting the confidence, moral, and overall teamwork of your forces while making your foes feel weak, nervous, and disorganized. Doesn't take a tactician to do that. Edited February 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Neither has Odan-Urr. Yes but hasn't Odan-Urr actually used it for fleets? And I thought he was trained 0.0 If not, point still stands. Surik had the ability to affect battles greatly, at first it was assumed skill, but it was discovered to be Battle Meditation. Leia has never been noted as a good tactician, and never used it on a fleet, seeing as there's Various skill levels, there's no reason to think Leia can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Umm... That's the complete opposite of what you said last time. No Tune doesn't get them from his shipyards, because people don't BUILD engines at Shipyards, they install them. Why else were Santhe/Sienar one of the galaxies largest suppliers of Starship Components? Shipyards are more like assembly lines Beni. They don't get scrap metal, bend it into shape, plug it into a valve, plug the valve into fuel... They just grab the engine and toss it into a ship I don't remember... apologies if I'm being inconsistent. But yeah, shipyards source the material, but they still have the means to source them. You have no means to source crystals. None. Therefore I don't feel I can allow you to restock your supplies once they are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Leia was trained for it too.... And Battle Meditation isn't about being a tactician. It's about boosting the confidence, moral, and overall teamwork of your forces while making your foes feel weak, nervous, and disorganized. Doesn't take a tactician to do that. Yeh, my point was, it was originally put down to Surik being a great tactician, and it turned out to be Battle Meditation. As for Leia, she's never used it for fleets, she's never been said to be a massive tactician. To be honest, I always thought it WAS just battle meld, though that's probably me just being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I can already tell this is going to be a fun Kaggath. I know right this stuff is to rapid fire right now and to much going on. I have things to do, but i will debate things when i have time to read all of this. That being said those that are defending me.... Thank you for putting in your time this was one of those debates I didnt want to have because I thought it was obvious that the DI would have an uphill battle in terms of Fleet and conventional war so I figured we were going to start with the niti grity of assassination attempts Luke and Leia Vs Traya and Maul, how to land on Malachor V with out getting insta gibbed, not talking about how 140 vessels would some how be out fought by 25 vessels all of the same size ratios, but hey the surprises of a Kaggath. I am around but have not read half of the arguments or pages, i will when i get time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Well actually no... Tune gets that from his shipyards and what not. If you want additional crystals, you'll need a supplier. Speaking of suppliers, what does Tune get from the Hapes Consortium? Because according to Wookieepedia, the Hapes Royal Navy had hundreds of Hapan Battle Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I don't remember... apologies if I'm being inconsistent. But yeah, shipyards source the material, but they still have the means to source them. You have no means to source crystals. None. Therefore I don't feel I can allow you to restock your supplies once they are gone. They don't have a means to source them... Without outside involvement ^.^ Yes you're being inconsistent. If you'd actually told this to me before, I would have taken Cronal over Maul, because Cronal would have the sources. However, didn't the Stealth Field Generators that the Assassins used, use the same type of power? If So, Traya and the Assassins must have had a supplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yes but hasn't Odan-Urr actually used it for fleets? And I thought he was trained 0.0 No, I don't think so. The point is, he's not a tactician, yet he turned a battle around very quickly. Being a tactician doesn't really matter in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Speaking of suppliers, what does Tune get from the Hapes Consortium? Because according to Wookieepedia, the Hapes Royal Navy had hundreds of Hapan Battle Dragons.Do they? Well they have access to those forces so I guess 10-20 in terms of the reductions. They also have the armies too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Speaking of suppliers, what does Tune get from the Hapes Consortium? Because according to Wookieepedia, the Hapes Royal Navy had hundreds of Hapan Battle Dragons. I get some help from the Navy as well as royal gaurd High technology such as weapons and some scientists. Money and resources..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Speaking of suppliers, what does Tune get from the Hapes Consortium? Because according to Wookieepedia, the Hapes Royal Navy had hundreds of Hapan Battle Dragons. Obviously not all of it, or I'd have Massive fleets too, (Sienar lent battleships to multiple different systems, and hired them out to others for different conflicts) I thought it was just a small starting garrison and Schematics, as I think Tune already factored Battle Dragons into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Do they? Well they have access to those forces so I guess 10-20 in terms of the reductions. They also have the armies too. Isolder described the forces of Hapes circa 8 ABY as "billions of warriors, thousands of starships." So.... how much does a thousand and a billion reduce to? Edited February 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 No, I don't think so. The point is, he's not a tactician, yet he turned a battle around very quickly. Being a tactician doesn't really matter in this case. Being a tactician wasn't the point of the post. It was saying that before Battle Meditation is discovered in someone, it's usually thought to be tactical ingenuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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