Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

[LadyKulvax]

We've probably been through this already, but is their any evidence to suggest that?

 

Malgus led a fleet of 103 ships the Expeditionary Fleet(suggested to be 25% of the Empire's naval force) into the Unknown Regions to carve out a bridge between the Sith Empire and Chiss Ascendancy, he lost 28 of them in the process, this fleet remained his, his fleet was the one that was established around Ilum and neighbouring systems right along the corridor to Chiss space, one of the allies he gained was the Schism Collective, whom among other things secretly perfected the use of Adegan Crystals to create viable stealth systems, which were applied to Malgus' fleet alone, along with these Stealth systems the Collective applied Rakatan technology to greatly enhance the firepower of his ships.

 

Oh and the Harrowers were also equipped with Foundry produced Shield Technology, to enhance the defensive capabilities of his fleet.

 

Going with the tech rule, Malgus' fleet is leaps and bounds more advanced than anything the AoW has.

Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Malgus led a fleet of 103 ships the Expeditionary Fleet(suggested to be 25% of the Empire's naval force) into the Unknown Regions to carve out a bridge between the Sith Empire and Chiss Ascendancy, he lost 28 of them in the process, this fleet remained his, his fleet was the one that was established around Ilum and neighbouring systems right along the corridor to Chiss space, one of the allies he gained was the Schism Collective, whom among other things secretly perfected the use of Adegan Crystals to create viable stealth systems, which were applied to Malgus' fleet alone, along with these Stealth systems the Collective applied Rakatan technology to greatly enhance the firepower of his ships.

 

Going with the tech rule, Malgus' fleet is leaps and bounds more advanced than anything the AoW has.

 

I love you Rayla, I really do

[Beniboybling]

Malgus led a fleet of 103 ships the Expeditionary Fleet(suggested to be 25% of the Empire's naval force) into the Unknown Regions to carve out a bridge between the Sith Empire and Chiss Ascendancy, he lost 28 of them in the process, this fleet remained his, his fleet was the one that was established around Ilum and neighbouring systems right along the corridor to Chiss space, one of the allies he gained was the Schism Collective, whom among other things secretly perfected the use of Adegan Crystals to create viable stealth systems, which were applied to Malgus' fleet alone, along with these Stealth systems the Collective applied Rakatan technology to greatly enhance the firepower of his ships.

 

Going with the tech rule, Malgus' fleet is leaps and bounds more advanced than anything the AoW has.

And what's the source for this?

[ShadowMudkip]

Malgus led a fleet of 103 ships the Expeditionary Fleet(suggested to be 25% of the Empire's naval force) into the Unknown Regions to carve out a bridge between the Sith Empire and Chiss Ascendancy, he lost 28 of them in the process, this fleet remained his, his fleet was the one that was established around Ilum and neighbouring systems right along the corridor to Chiss space, one of the allies he gained was the Schism Collective, whom among other things secretly perfected the use of Adegan Crystals to create viable stealth systems, which were applied to Malgus' fleet alone, along with these Stealth systems the Collective applied Rakatan technology to greatly enhance the firepower of his ships.

 

Going with the tech rule, Malgus' fleet is leaps and bounds more advanced than anything the AoW has.

 

Rakata Tech you say?

[LadyKulvax]

And what's the source for this?

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic, though I am humoured by the fact you need me to source statements.

 

Hell read it yourself: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Malgus'_Sith_Empire

Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Star Wars: The Old Republic, though I am humoured by the fact you need me to source statements.

That's rather vague...

 

And I'm merely interested.

 

EDIT: And I mean in terms of numbers. I'm aware that a lot of this is mentioned in game (if that's what your source is) by I don't ever remember any mention of numbers. Heck its even implied that he's only got fighters, but I doubt that's true.

 

EDIT: Wookiepedia also seems to think it only consisted of a dozen ships.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Well to be Honest, Beni's numbers are Off, as Rayla has already stated Malgus' fleet numbered 75, which means I'd have 15 Stealthed Ships.

And Lol at those 10 ships facing off against 15 OCF ships and 15 MSF ships. And of course, Sienar Fighters. I'm not sure you remember, but the Venators alone can hold almost 500 fighters, I'd decimate your forces with Fighters.

 

Besides, your 140 ships does not just equal Capital ships, as Beni has already stated, it's 140 ships of (I think) corvettes or Higher. Sending 10 capital ships would leave few to defend.

 

 

Ok I guess its break down time. I cant believe I am actually having to do this.

 

 

 

1% Flag ship

14% capital

30% Frigate

55% support

 

Flagships

1 Viscount

1 Mediator

 

Capital Ships

1 Nebula

1 Galactic-class Carrier (by the way this has 7 bays each with 4 and 1/2 squads in a bay while sporting similar fire power to an Imp class)

2 MC-90 Star cruiser

3 Endurance-class Carrier

3 Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser

3 Hapan-Battle dragons (before extra support from Hapes comes in)

6 Republic-Class Star Destroyer

 

 

Frigates

10 Assault Frigate MK I

10 Nova-Class Battle Cruisers

22 Sacheen-class Light escort

 

 

Support Vessels

 

11 Hajeen-class Fleet tenders

 

22 Agave-class Picket ships

 

22 Warrior-class Gunships

 

22 Military grade YT-2400 Freighters

 

 

 

Yours

 

Flagship

 

1 Harrower

 

Capital ship

 

2 Venator-class star destroyer

1 Terminus (15% of 25 is 3.75 ships so between Flag's and Capitals you have 4 ships.)

 

Frigates

 

3 Acclamator II-class assault ship

 

4 Arquitens-class Light cruiser

 

(dont know Malgus's fleet as far as frigates go, so I used your Repulic forces and took PITY on you and listed Acclamator's as frigates)

 

Support ships

 

7 Pelta-class Frigate

 

7 CR-90 Corvette

 

(same as above dont know Malgus's support vessels.)

 

All-in-all I think this illistrates my point nicely though at tops you have 2 Stealth Capital ships and 4 capital ships total.

 

Sending 6 of mine with 2 frigates and 2 Corvetes is Overkill.

Edited February 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Ok I guess its break down time. I cant believe I am actually having to do this.

 

 

 

1% Flag ship

14% capital

30% Frigate

55% support

 

Flagships

1 Viscount

1 Mediator

 

Capital Ships

1 Nebula

1 Galactic-class Carrier (by the way this has 7 bays each with 4 and 1/2 squads in a bay while sporting similar fire power to an Imp class)

2 MC-90 Star cruiser

3 Endurance-class Carrier

3 Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser

3 Hapan-Battle dragons (before extra support from Hapes comes in)

6 Republic-Class Star Destroyer

 

 

Frigates

10 Assault Frigate MK I

10 Nova-Class Battle Cruisers

22 Sacheen-class Light escort

 

 

Support Vessels

 

11 Hajeen-class Fleet tenders

 

22 Agave-class Picket ships

 

22 Warrior-class Gunships

 

22 Military grade YT-2400 Freighters

 

 

 

Yours

 

Flagship

 

1 Harrower

 

Capital ship

 

2 Venator-class star destroyer

1 Terminus (15% of 25 is 3.75 ships so between Flag's and Capitals you have 4 ships.)

 

Frigates

 

3 Acclamator II-class assault ship

 

4 Arquitens-class Light cruiser

 

(dont know Malgus's fleet as far as frigates go, so I used your Repulic forces and took PITY on you and listed Acclamator's as frigates)

 

Support ships

 

7 Pelta-class Frigate

 

7 CR-90 Corvette

 

(same as above dont know Malgus's support vessels.)

 

All-in-all I think this illistrates my point nicely though at tops you have 2 Stealth Capital ships and 4 capital ships total.

 

Sending 6 of mine with 2 frigates and 2 Corvetes is Overkill.

 

As YOU pointed out last Kaggath, those numbers are greatly off. Here's mine.

 

19 OCF ships. 5 Accalamators, 4 Corvettes, 10 Venators. I say this because the Open Circle Fleet used almost exclusively Venators.

 

Malgus' Stealth Fleet: 15 ships. 7 Harrowers, 8 Terminus, because that's about the Ratio we've seen in Game. Malgus' stealth fleet didn't utilize many other ship types.

 

Oh, and you're forgetting the Mandator-II, that's my Flagship, not a Harrower.

 

And the Harrowers of course, supplemented by Rakatan Technology, WAY too advanced for their time, would be more powerful than any ships you have.

[tunewalker]

For those thinking I have no answer to assassins I want to remind every one that blaster wielders can take down saber weilders and i do have access to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CR-1_blaster_cannon which pretty much acts like this

1:14

[LadyKulvax]

That's rather vague...

 

And I'm merely interested.

 

EDIT: And I mean in terms of numbers. I'm aware that a lot of this is mentioned in game (if that's what your source is) by I don't ever remember any mention of numbers. Heck its even implied that he's only got fighters, but I doubt that's true.

 

"That Sith Lord took 103 ships with him when he left with that damned Fleet, a hundred and three! this was all the Ascendancy's damned fault, how can we expect to hold off the entire Republic Navy with 70% of our forces?" - the Voidwolf

 

"In an attempt to gain a stronger hold of the northern corridor and acquiescing to Chiss demands that the Empire strengthen military ties, Darth Malgus was given command of what was believed to be 25% of the Imperial Navy, an Expeditionary Fleet, to conquer new territories along the northern sectors."

 

"During his campaign through the Unknown Regions, Malgus conquered many civilisations and made allies of others, all in all the Sith Lord lost 28 Ships in his campaign, a number the Dark Council deemed too high for the rewards and the Expedition ended at Ilum."

 

Those are the quotes I can find immediately.

[tunewalker]

As YOU pointed out last Kaggath, those numbers are greatly off. Here's mine.

 

19 OCF ships. 5 Accalamators, 4 Corvettes, 10 Venators. I say this because the Open Circle Fleet used almost exclusively Venators.

 

Malgus' Stealth Fleet: 15 ships. 7 Harrowers, 8 Terminus, because that's about the Ratio we've seen in Game. Malgus' stealth fleet didn't utilize many other ship types.

 

Oh, and you're forgetting the Mandator-II, that's my Flagship, not a Harrower.

 

And the Harrowers of course, supplemented by Rakatan Technology, WAY too advanced for their time, would be more powerful than any ships you have.

 

And as BENI pointed out last match all navies did the same just what was classified as a Capital ship and what was classified as a frigate was different.

 

For OUR FLEETS the same ships that were classified as Capital's were classified as Capitals and same for Frigates.

 

IF you have 25 CAPITAL ships + frigates and support ships..... then I have 140 Capital ships+ frigates and support vessels.

[Beniboybling]

Malgus' Stealth Fleet: 15 ships. 7 Harrowers, 8 Terminus, because that's about the Ratio we've seen in Game. Malgus' stealth fleet didn't utilize many other ship types.

Is it? Don't they normally have more Harrowers?

 

Much like the fact that there were always more Venators than Acclamators during Clone War conflicts.

[tunewalker]

Is it? Don't they normally have more Harrowers?

 

Much like the fact that there were always more Venators than Acclamators during Clone War conflicts.

 

Are they getting 25 capital ships? does this mean I have the 140 capital ships like i orriginally intended when I told you the numbers?

[Aurbere]

Malgus led a fleet of 103 ships the Expeditionary Fleet(suggested to be 25% of the Empire's naval force) into the Unknown Regions to carve out a bridge between the Sith Empire and Chiss Ascendancy, he lost 28 of them in the process, this fleet remained his, his fleet was the one that was established around Ilum and neighbouring systems right along the corridor to Chiss space, one of the allies he gained was the Schism Collective, whom among other things secretly perfected the use of Adegan Crystals to create viable stealth systems, which were applied to Malgus' fleet alone, along with these Stealth systems the Collective applied Rakatan technology to greatly enhance the firepower of his ships.

 

Oh and the Harrowers were also equipped with Foundry produced Shield Technology, to enhance the defensive capabilities of his fleet.

 

Going with the tech rule, Malgus' fleet is leaps and bounds more advanced than anything the AoW has.

 

I did not know that they used Rakata tech. Interesting, but I should have seen that earlier.

[tunewalker]

I did not know that they used Rakata tech. Interesting, but I should have seen that earlier.

 

Even with Rakata tech I had Advanced tech of my own. The republic and the Sith were evenly matched fleet wise so even with the Rakata tech it brought them on par with the large advanced vessels of the republic at the time.

 

So ultimately we both have advanced ships.

[Selenial]

And as BENI pointed out last match all navies did the same just what was classified as a Capital ship and what was classified as a frigate was different.

 

For OUR FLEETS the same ships that were classified as Capital's were classified as Capitals and same for Frigates.

 

IF you have 25 CAPITAL ships + frigates and support ships..... then I have 140 Capital ships+ frigates and support vessels.

 

I really have no Idea what that's meant to mean, but I'm just going to say No.

 

The GAR Used a massive array of ships ranging from small to large, both the Open Circle Fleet and Malgus' Stealth Fleet used about 3x more Capital ships than small ships. So you'd probably have about as many capital ships as I do, if that.

[Selenial]

Even with Rakata tech I had Advanced tech of my own. The republic and the Sith were evenly matched fleet wise so even with the Rakata tech it brought them on par with the large advanced vessels of the republic at the time.

 

So ultimately we both have advanced ships.

 

The GAR didn't have advanced tech on the Level of the Rakata.

 

Malgus' Fleet was enough of a threat to contend with The ENTIRE Republic and Imperial fleets, which outnumbered him 10-1. His fleet was grossly over-advanced.

[Beniboybling]

"That Sith Lord took 103 ships with him when he left with that damned Fleet, a hundred and three! this was all the Ascendancy's damned fault, how can we expect to hold off the entire Republic Navy with 70% of our forces?" - the Voidwolf

 

"In an attempt to gain a stronger hold of the northern corridor and acquiescing to Chiss demands that the Empire strengthen military ties, Darth Malgus was given command of what was believed to be 25% of the Imperial Navy, an Expeditionary Fleet, to conquer new territories along the northern sectors."

 

"During his campaign through the Unknown Regions, Malgus conquered many civilisations and made allies of others, all in all the Sith Lord lost 28 Ships in his campaign, a number the Dark Council deemed too high for the rewards and the Expedition ended at Ilum."

 

Those are the quotes I can find immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTtT2jQmwA&t=0m14s

[Selenial]

Is it? Don't they normally have more Harrowers?

 

Much like the fact that there were always more Venators than Acclamators during Clone War conflicts.

 

Yeh actually, probably about 10 Harrowers, 5 Terminus'

 

All with Rakatan technology...

[Selenial]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTtT2jQmwA&t=0m14s

 

Hahahaha...

 

To be Honest, I'm starting to think that the Rakatan weapons and technology of Malgus' fleet, would allow a Harrower to take on a GAR Capital ship 2v1, because the Rakatan technology on Belsavis obliterated a Republic Cruiser in seconds...

[tunewalker]

I really have no Idea what that's meant to mean, but I'm just going to say No.

 

The GAR Used a massive array of ships ranging from small to large, both the Open Circle Fleet and Malgus' Stealth Fleet used about 3x more Capital ships than small ships. So you'd probably have about as many capital ships as I do, if that.

 

No both were fleets designed for war time. our ratios are the same. If you have 25 capital ships + smaller ships I have 140 Capital ships +smaller ships

 

If I have 15 % capital and flaghips so do you. The logistics doesnt allow for anything less. Either way a fleet conflict.... you lose. This was a given from the word go and we shouldnt be wasting time on it. We should be argueing assassinations and means for me to get Traya on Malachor V instead of wasting time on stubborn people not realizing the obvious.

[LadyKulvax]

Even with Rakata tech I had Advanced tech of my own. The republic and the Sith were evenly matched fleet wise so even with the Rakata tech it brought them on par with the large advanced vessels of the republic at the time.

 

So ultimately we both have advanced ships.

 

Rakata tech was the best of the lot, only slightly rivalled by Gree technology, not only that, but these ships have advanced Stealth Systems not based on the typical Stygium Cloaking Devices, but Adegan Crystals fashioned by the advanced Schism Collective into Stealth systems.

 

Malgus' fleet was capable of facing off both the Imperial Navy and the Republic Navy in simultaneous battles, far far larger fleets, but not nearly as advanced.

 

I really hope you aren't actually going to try and argue that your ships are just as advanced.

 

EDIT: Having just done a bit more research, it is stated that Malgus' fleet wasn't just capable of facing both the Galactic Republic Navy and the Sith Empire Navy, but it was winning.

Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Well, my fleet numbers 34, stealth fleet alone is 15.

15 Stealthed vessels popping out of Stealth would catch a fleet of 20 completely off guard and probably end up victorious... And Traya doesn't need to spread her forces out, if when cut off from the force she could have Completely correct visions about specific individuals years away, she could predict an incoming fleet with her full connection.

As I said, the best odds you can hope for - i.e accurately predicting the move of the enemy and dedicating your entire force to that planet, would be, in light of your adjusted numbers, roughly 3 to 1. With you having the disadvantages of inferior tacticians and probably inferior firepower in terms of ship to ship, at least in terms of the OCF.

 

Remember that the Viscount is practically the equivalent of an SSD with 4,000 turbolaser batteries, 200 missile launchers, 300 heavy ion cannons, 500 point defense laser cannons and 40 tractor beams. Its also 17 km long. It needs to be flanked just so it can bring the full weight of its armament to bear. It also has backup shields, so I doubt a flanking maneuver will negate the shield advantage.

 

So currently we are talking about roughly 90 to 100 vessels against 25.

[Selenial]

No both were fleets designed for war time. our ratios are the same. If you have 25 capital ships + smaller ships I have 140 Capital ships +smaller ships

 

If I have 15 % capital and flaghips so do you. The logistics doesnt allow for anything less. Either way a fleet conflict.... you lose. This was a given from the word go and we shouldnt be wasting time on it. We should be argueing assassinations and means for me to get Traya on Malachor V instead of wasting time on stubborn people not realizing the obvious.

 

No.... Just No.

Very much No.

 

The Republic was a full blown War Machine, using the Tarkin Doctrine (though obviously not officially) the Open Circle Fleet was almost COMPLETELY Venators.

 

Your fleet was a fleet built on the principles of the Rebel Alliance, which used Capital ships, but to a lesser Degree.

Your fleet used smaller frigates a lot more, and corvettes a lot more.

 

You can't say all war time fleets were the same, that's propostorous.

 

And I agree, it really is time for stubborn people to realize the obvious

[Beniboybling]

The GAR didn't have advanced tech on the Level of the Rakata.

 

Malgus' Fleet was enough of a threat to contend with The ENTIRE Republic and Imperial fleets, which outnumbered him 10-1. His fleet was grossly over-advanced.

Yet was defeated in its first battle, I think we need to evaluate that first.