Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Beni, i'd also like to Add to your little Numbers game.... Bayonet-class light cruiser Enforcer-class Picket Ship (with Kuat Drive Yards) Guardian-class light cruiser Guardian 344-class light cruiser Immobilizer-418 Interdictor-class Heavy Cruiser Immobilizer-418A Interdictor-class Heavy Cruiser Imperial Research Ship Interdictor-class Cruiser IPV/1 Patrol Craft IPV/4 Patrol Craft IPV/h Patrol Craft IR-3F Patrol Craft ISB Operations Ship Lianna-class Corvette Light Patrol Ship Marauder-class Corvette Sienar Battleship Vindicator-class heavy cruiser Warden-class light cruiser Are the starting Garrison of the Sienar Fleet. However, Seeing as Traya's fleet would want more Capital cruisers, this list would likely be tuned down to the 5 Capital Cruisers, and Instead of making the Rest of the ships, they'd make more cruisers. So the Starting Garrison would probably be along the lines of 8 cruisers.... Bringing my numbers to 42, closer to half the AOW.Which means you, after the stealth fleets are routed, are outnumbered just under 2 to 1 and still lose I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 So why are they there now exactly? Expecting the Death Star? The second coming of Christ? And were were all those ships hiding? In another galaxy perhaps? A fleet of over 100 ships does not simply appear stationery around Lehon after a week or so of there only being two for no reason, or at all for that matter. At least a portion of that armada must have been there before, its only logical. What is far less logical is that a pair of Interdictors could stand against the full might of the Republic Navy (why the hell build 100 more! A third would do the trick!) and actually manage to block of their escape, they aren't big enough. Two ships does not constitute an armada. We merely saw two, no evidence suggests otherwise. The 100 other ships came from... Oh I don't know... The Star Forge? They need more after the battle because now the location of the Star Forge is known to the Galaxy. Also, why do you think SIZE matters for cutting off ships? The Interdictors had Interdictor fields, the Republic couldn't escape because they couldn't jump to Hyperspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I fail to see how that disputes my point. A pair of fleets likely of similar size engage each other. Funnily enough the fleet with stealth, Rakata tech and flux cannons begins to win. But once the station is taken out of the equation and the flux cannons turned against the stealthed ships. The opposing fleet wins and escapes without suffering critical damage. In what way can that be interpreted as the stealth fleet being capable of crushing the enemy fleet with little difficulty? As I said they would have been crippled before the strike team even got to Malgus, they were not. Anyway I think its better if we focus on the actual debate at hand specifically. Your point is defeated by another point: Malgus's fleet which was only 25% of the Imperial Navy, is actively waging a war against BOTH navies in different battles at the same time. You have also ignored my statement twice now, that the Flux Cannons were not being used because his own dozen or so ships are in the way, THEN they are charged(this statement in the game makes it clear they aren't being used) and used to fire on the rear of Malgus' fleet. You also don't seem to gather that this specific dozen or so ships aren't even using stealth as they are on the defensive, so there goes one of the main strengths of his fleet right off the bat, you also seem to have made the assumption that none of the enemy ships took damage, absolutely nothing states that, in-fact it's stated multiple times over radio chatter that they are getting the stuffing beaten out of them and that they need help. Malgus' fleet is not going to annihilate a much larger fleet (this is the entire Republic and Imperial navies we are talking about) in seconds or minutes, it's going to take time, but the fact about a dozen of his ships is kicking the collective crap out of a fleet that is likely much bigger is seriously impressive, the complete opposite of what you are trying to claim. Edited February 17, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Which means you, after the stealth fleets are routed, are outnumbered just under 2 to 1 and still lose I'm afraid. Not quite. The starting number of the Fleets dictates how fast the Stealth Fleet is Routed. If the OCF and Sienar fleets took one ship each, (Which is ridiculously unrealistic, because you're not taking fighters into account) that means the Stealth fleet needs to take on 63 ships... 4-1 odds. Oh no, Seems like that's a faceroll for the AOW right? Wrong. The Stealth ships come at a massive surprise, they'd be able to fire on exposed rears of ships where the shield density is low (As is the usual battle strategy) crippling the ship and leaving them adrift in space. The Stealthed extinction Bombers would annihilate many Vessels. And as where my numbers are almost all Capital ships, AOW has many smaller ships and escort cruisers, which would be ripped apart EVEN EASIER by the Rakatan cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) The 100 other ships came from... Oh I don't know... The Star Forge? They need more after the battle because now the location of the Star Forge is known to the Galaxy. Also, why do you think SIZE matters for cutting off ships? The Interdictors had Interdictor fields, the Republic couldn't escape because they couldn't jump to Hyperspace.So they produced 100 ships in a week, yet after two years of having the Star Forge in their possession only two are stationed there? Did they all flee for some reason before the Republic arrived? And why were they all just guarding it? When they didn't see a need before? I can't believe your actually considering this. If two ships can defeat an entire armada. Why build one hundred? Two ships is not a fleet. Edited February 17, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The 100 other ships came from... Oh I don't know... The Star Forge? They need more after the battle because now the location of the Star Forge is known to the Galaxy. Also, why do you think SIZE matters for cutting off ships? The Interdictors had Interdictor fields, the Republic couldn't escape because they couldn't jump to Hyperspace. Precisely what I was about to state, it's also highly likely that the entire Sith fleet gathered there, so they could assault the Core Worlds en masse and destroy what is likely massive defensive systems around Coruscant, etc... in one massive blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Precisely what I was about to state, it's also highly likely that the entire Sith fleet gathered there, so they could assault the Core Worlds en masse and destroy what is likely massive defensive systems around Coruscant, etc... in one massive blow.The Unknown Regions is the furthest place from the Core Worlds you can get, this makes no sense. Not that they would need so many ships, considering the Republic navy has just been decimated and apparently it only takes two vessels to achieve such a victory. 100 is more than overkill. Edited February 17, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 So they produced 100 ships in a week, yet after two years of having the Star Forge in their possession only two are stationed there? Did they all flee for some reason before the Republic arrived? And why were they all just guarding it? When they didn't see a need before? I can't believe your actually considering this. If two ships can defeat an entire armada. Why build one hundred? Two ships is not a fleet. Why do you think it's a Week O_O Doesn't mean they're guarding it, Like Rayla said, likely amassing for an Invasion. And again... LEHON WAS A SECRET. Why would you spend Ships that are needed to fight a war guarding a location that cannot possibly be known by the enemy? Besides, If those are not the 2 only Interdictors there, then the others must be fighting other Republic Forces, meaning the Ratios would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The Unknown Regions is the furthest place from the Core Worlds you can get, this makes no sense. The Unknown regions would contain Hyperspace routes unexplored by the Republic. Makes perfect sense, attack from the place your Enemies least expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Busy day on the forums. Poor Tune, is he even here? I'll try to catch up. Have we discussed Leia's battle meditation? Edited February 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Personally, I agree with Beni about Lehon. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Why do you think it's a Week O_O Doesn't mean they're guarding it, Like Rayla said, likely amassing for an Invasion. And again... LEHON WAS A SECRET. Why would you spend Ships that are needed to fight a war guarding a location that cannot possibly be known by the enemy? Besides, If those are not the 2 only Interdictors there, then the others must be fighting other Republic Forces, meaning the Ratios would be the same.Because they are celebrating a victory on Korriban and declaring Revan the new Lord of the Sith. I see no reason for a delay. And according to the hyperspace table it would have taken a week to get there with a Class 2 hyperdrive. It would take two weeks to get from Lehon to the Core. Wonderful staging point. As a factory churning out vessels on an hourly basis, you would think they'd have a sizeable garrison. And in the instance that the enemy every found out its existence, the station would be overrun and destroyed for sure. Considering they can produce vessels at such a fast pace, you'd think they'd spare the trouble. Not that this explains how on earth they managed to destroy a the entire fleet with two ships and why on earth they'd feel the need to build 100 more in the space of a week when the war was as good as won. The majority of that fleet must have been their before, there would have been little reason to build so many more even if they aren't doomships. And who knows why the Republic didn't take a few GodShips for their own. EDIT: On top of that they actually built more while the battle was underway! Edited February 17, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The Unknown Regions is the furthest place from the Core Worlds you can get, this makes no sense. Actually, Lehon is a massive back-door to the Core Worlds, it's stated in PoD quite a few times. It's also a perfect place to attack from, instead of going through shipyard after shipyard of fleets, like you would if you were attacking from traditional Sith space, you can go through a far less defended N'zoth. It's also pretty obvious that what you see is the entire Sith Armada, if it isn't, then the idea that the Sith Empire hadn't already won is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Busy day on the forums. Poor Tune, is he even here? I'll try to catch up. Have we discussed Leia's battle meditation? The fact it's never been shown to work on an entire battle? yes, we did that in mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The simple fact of the matter is, what we see on screen amounts to TWO Interdictor class-cruisers, there are no others in sight, at all, do we see an armada at the Star Forge, in the non-canon Dark Side ending which could have taken place at any point after the battle? sure. Does that mean it was there to fight in that battle, against a fleet that turned up out of nowhere? no, that is never stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The fact it's never been shown to work on an entire battle? yes, we did that in mine. What do you mean? I was more referring to it being able to bolster Luke's power from across the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 The Unknown regions would contain Hyperspace routes unexplored by the Republic. Makes perfect sense, attack from the place your Enemies least expect.I highly doubt at this point crafty subterfuge is actually necessary, there would certainly be chance that the Republic could resist the might of 100 so-called GodShips after their primary fleet has just been decimated all the Jedi are dead. Not that their is any evidence to suggest that these routes were known to Revan. Or that one somehow undiscovered route led all the way to the Core and didn't just drop them out in the Outer Rim. And that that was actually what was going through the developers heads at the time. Makes no sense I'm afraid, and I think its time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Because they are celebrating a victory on Korriban and declaring Revan the new Lord of the Sith. I see no reason for a delay. And according to the hyperspace table it would have taken a week to get there with a Class 2 hyperdrive. It would take two weeks to get from Lehon to the Core. Wonderful staging point. As a factory churning out vessels on an hourly basis, you would think they'd have a sizeable garrison. And in the instance that the enemy every found out its existence, the station would be overrun and destroyed for sure. Considering they can produce vessels at such a fast pace, you'd think they'd spare the trouble. Not that this explains how on earth they managed to destroy a the entire fleet with two ships and why on earth they'd feel the need to build 100 more in the space of a week when the war was as good as won. The majority of that fleet must have been their before, there would have been little reason to build so many more even if they aren't doomships. And who knows why the Republic didn't take a few GodShips for their own. EDIT: On top of that they actually built more while the battle was underway! The point remains, we never saw those other ships. Could of course be to the fact that they were fighting off other Republic Vessels, it could have easily been an "Attack from all directions" type thing. If the republic fleet supposedly numbered in the 100's, seems ridiculous that they'd send like 10 ships against the Star Forge. So yes, the Ratio remains the same, 10-2, or 5-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 The simple fact of the matter is, what we see on screen amounts to TWO Interdictor class-cruisers, there are no others in sight, at all, do we see an armada at the Star Forge, in the non-canon Dark Side ending which could have taken place at any point after the battle? sure. Does that mean it was there to fight in that battle, against a fleet that turned up out of nowhere? no, that is never stated.So we disregard logic because we lack peripheral vision? No. It was referred to as a fleet, that alone proves their were more than two. On top of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The simple fact of the matter is, what we see on screen amounts to TWO Interdictor class-cruisers, there are no others in sight, at all, do we see an armada at the Star Forge, in the non-canon Dark Side ending which could have taken place at any point after the battle? sure. Does that mean it was there to fight in that battle, against a fleet that turned up out of nowhere? no, that is never stated. Indeed. Why are we even arguing this? The point was a pathetic one at best anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 What do you mean? I was more referring to it being able to bolster Luke's power from across the galaxy. Likely not on Malachor, but I don't see what difference this makes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure why people are pulling for DI space superiority. All it takes is one look at AoW ships. The only advantage stealth gives is surprise. This flanking stuff isn't even a good idea, because most ships have more turbolasers on their port and starboard than they do facing straight ahead. If stealthed ships flank AoW fleets, they'll just die quicker than in they attacked head-on. All the stealthed fleet will do is put the AoW on the defensive until the DI tries and fails several attacks. The DI doesn't have access to Ilum's crystals, so they have 15 stealthed ships and that's it. No more. Soon enough those ships will be destroyed and the AoW will be free to demolish the Open Circle Fleet. Edited February 17, 2014 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Indeed. Why are we even arguing this? The point was a pathetic one at best anyway.The point that it only takes two Rakata ships to subvert a Republic armada? I wouldn't use such harsh terms but yes. Especially coming from the same folks who argued the Galactic Empire would actually stand a chance against the Rakata themselves. So yes, lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 What do you mean? I was more referring to it being able to bolster Luke's power from across the galaxy. Are you referring to when they faced Palpatine? because that was on the same ship IIRC. Tune suggested in our own Kaggath that Leia could use Battle Meditation to effect an entire battle, but there is no evidence she can do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Indeed. Why are we even arguing this? The point was a pathetic one at best anyway. Indeed it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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